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23 minutes ago, Talon Brown said:

I swear to God it's corporate overreach like this that will slowly push me into becoming a communist.  My playing music over a stream to a few people is no different than playing the CD to a group of friends in my house.  Granted, I know the music industry would love to charge us for that as well but until then they can go f**k off and fight it in court if they wish to waste the time and money for the 1000L in tips I might make on a good night in SL.

Playing music for your friends is just as illegal, the industry is incredibly corrupt. It's just that the industry can't afford to spend spies to every home.

Maybe Alexa can fill in that role.

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8 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

Playing music for your friends is just as illegal, the industry is incredibly corrupt. It's just that the industry can't afford to spend spies to every home.

Maybe Alexa can fill in that role.

Playing music in your home with friends is far different than playing music is a commercial place such as a bar. At home, it's entertainment. At a bar, it draws in customers who spend money. Two different situations. Some bars would not hire live bands for that reason, instead going with jukeboxes. The monthly fee for the jukebox covered what ever fees that were to be paid by the jukebox owner. I understand some bars were visited by BMI or ASCAP reps checking if the bar had paid to perform the music. Could be a rumor, but something to think about.

TRIVIA: When 'WKRP in Cincinnati' ran on CBS, artists loved their actual songs played during episodes. Helped album sales. The late Hoyt Axton debuted "Della and the Dealer' on one segment. Problem was the royalty's only covered first run and some reruns. No one thought about syndication. When 'KRP' was syndicated, some sound alike bands were used singing generic music fills where the original songs were placed.

Eventually, the royalty problem was solved and approximately 93% of the original songs were placed back in and DVD's of the series were sold.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Talon Brown said:

No?  Who's copying anything here?  I bought the music, I stream the music to less than 25 people on a server.  Where's the crime?  The music industry would love for you to think it's a crime but ask the actual musicians who the real thieves are in this situation and it won't be the DJs.

My 0.02 L$ on this:

Here in the NL the music industry is even after barber shops and dentist waiting rooms where they play music to entertain/relax waiting customers. That counts as public performance even if you have just a radio station on.
When you buy music it is for private use.  Public space and streaming is always public performance, even if it is for less than 25 people.

It is one of the main reasons I don't DJ in SL.
I loved doing it in RL when I was a teen and a young adult. I never had to bother about royalties. That was covered by the venues.
But in SL the DJ is the one that is streaming, so responsible for that stream and I guess in the end responsible for the royalties.

Edited by Sid Nagy
Typos and stuff
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43 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

My 0.02 L$ on this:

Here in the NL the music industry is even after barber shops and dentist waiting rooms where they play music to entertain/relax waiting customers. That counts as public performance even if you have just a radio station on.
When you buy music it is for private use.  Public space and streaming is always public performance, even if it is for less than 25 people.

The main reason I don't DJ in SL.
I loved doing it in RL when I was a teen and a young adult. I never had to bother about royalties. That was covered by the venues.
But in SL the DJ is the one that is streaming, so responsible for that stream and I guess in the end responsible for the royalties.

I'm going to make this my last post on the topic.  I had hoped other DJs would chime in here but as usual whenever this subject comes up the majority of SL DJs would rather stay in the shadows than argue over this bullsh*t.  Yes, the DJ is responsible for the royalties in SL because God knows the venues certainly aren't paying them.  They're not even paying the DJs, we're lucky if they pony up for a club stream for everyone to use rather than expecting every single DJ to run their own stream on their own dime. 

So basically it comes down to this, most SL DJs are running private "pirate" streams because they're not paying royalties to an industry that would drive every single one of them offline if they could. We know the risks and we still do it.  Why?  Certainly not for the money, that's for damn sure.  We do it because we love the music and want to share it with others who are as passionate about it as we are.  For this we are branded pirates and compared to copybotters.  It's no damn wonder the music scene in SL has been dying over the past 6 years given these conditions.  Sure there are a few popular clubs left, the ones that somehow survive on advertising or are running as a labour of love by the owners.  The rest are either dead or dying and it's a damn shame because we've lost a lot of good DJs and the music they spun along the way.

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Posted (edited)

Hey, I didn't make the laws.
I love music too, but I just don't want to be the one that holds the Black Peter card in this game, if things go sour with the authorities.

The way I see it, even if you have a store in SL or a public beach, basically places where general public is welcome and you just stream an internet station on that land, you are not complying with the music copyright laws in some\most countries.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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16 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Hey, I didn't make the laws.
I love music too, but I just don't want to be the one that holds the Black Peter card in this game, if things go sour with the authorities.

The way I see it, even if you have a store in SL or a public beach, basically places where general public is welcome and you just stream an internet station on that land, you are not complying with the music copyright laws in some\most countries.

 

I got popped early on in my SL life for streaming music to a huge group of people, it's why I got licensed, they cant touch you if you are legal and playing within what your porfolio is setup to play and you follow the rules for broadcasting.  

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46 minutes ago, Talon Brown said:

I'm going to make this my last post on the topic.  I had hoped other DJs would chime in here but as usual whenever this subject comes up the majority of SL DJs would rather stay in the shadows than argue over this bullsh*t.  Yes, the DJ is responsible for the royalties in SL because God knows the venues certainly aren't paying them.  They're not even paying the DJs, we're lucky if they pony up for a club stream for everyone to use rather than expecting every single DJ to run their own stream on their own dime. 

So basically it comes down to this, most SL DJs are running private "pirate" streams because they're not paying royalties to an industry that would drive every single one of them offline if they could. We know the risks and we still do it.  Why?  Certainly not for the money, that's for damn sure.  We do it because we love the music and want to share it with others who are as passionate about it as we are.  For this we are branded pirates and compared to copybotters.  It's no damn wonder the music scene in SL has been dying over the past 6 years given these conditions.  Sure there are a few popular clubs left, the ones that somehow survive on advertising or are running as a labour of love by the owners.  The rest are either dead or dying and it's a damn shame because we've lost a lot of good DJs and the music they spun along the way.

The reason those places can file a copyright claim is because musicians sold their music to them to distribute and to protect their works from the type of piracy you seem to support to promote your own brand of distribution. It's really not much of a high horse to be on to be honest. And I've literally spent the past week listening to great DJ's nearly every day. I'm not seeing any dying scene. In fact it's better than I can recall. Some are even implementing visual effects into their shows. Which for me is awesome.

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Posted (edited)

In the SL wiki about streaming music in SL:
Remember that streaming copyrighted music across the internet requires a license from your relevant national licensing authority.

That would mean that you need a licence even for privately used parcels.
/me tiptoes into SL to shut down the radio streams at my private parcels.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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10 minutes ago, Finite said:

The reason those places can file a copyright claim is because musicians sold their music to them to distribute and to protect their works from the type of piracy you seem to support to promote your own brand of distribution. It's really not much of a high horse to be on to be honest. And I've literally spent the past week listening to great DJ's nearly every day. I'm not seeing any dying scene. In fact it's better than I can recall. Some are even implementing visual effects into their shows. Which for me is awesome.

"Every time I try to get out they pull me back in..."

I'm not supporting piracy, refusing to pay outrageous royalties intended for ad supported internet radio stations isn't piracy.  I used to the term "pirate" stream earlier as a comparison to pirate radio which also isn't piracy, it's illegal because they lack a broadcasting license which is a different matter altogether.  And I'm glad you've spent so much time with great DJs, now go ask them if they're paying royalties and to who.  As for dying scenes, I don't know what scenes you're in but the ones I'm in have been dying for years.

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Posted (edited)

My car can drive 140+ kmh as max speed.
My countries laws say that max speed limit is 100 kmh on the motorways.
So can I justify to drive 140 kmh because I think 100 kmh is incredibly slow?

Edited by Sid Nagy
I should edit better before postings. I really should....
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Wow, the amount of ignorance and ideological posturing on this simple question is mind boggling. Only a couple of responders had answers anywhere close to the desired response.

Since 2007 I have managed an oline radio station that has been legally licensed over the years via Loudcity, StreamLicensing, Sonixcast, and Torontocast. After the rates skyrocketed in 2016 I jumped from an American company to a Canadian one. My rates went from $30 to $75 a month! I found  a Canadian entity where the annual cost was about $100. I now pay $8 a month for licensing, an auto-dj with 20gig storage, 500 slots, and 3 mount points. A nice bargain indeed!

Working with a Canadian company means my stream is one channel on a larger station (Torontocast). My website is hosted on their server and any external webplayer is too. As far as streaming into SL is concerned the viewer is not considered a music app (Like Tune-in, Deezer, or Nobex). It's mre akin to VLC Foobar, or iTunes. You can plug in a URL and that is not "illegal". SL parcels are not websites either nor are they public.

Generally speaking you can do whatever you want in SL streaming wise, but the moment you have a noticeable web presence, you can be targeted.

If the OP would like to know more, they can PM me here or inworld.

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5 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

My car can drive 140+ kmh as max speed.
My countries laws say that max speed limit is 100 kmh on the motorways.
So can I justify to drive 140 kmh because I think 100 kmh is incredibly slow?

You know I'm getting real tired of you conflating actual laws with whatever bull****** propaganda the music industry uses to scare people into submission.  You're not going to goto jail for not paying their "licensing" fees.  They may sue you but that's a civil, not criminal case.  As for what you can do, you can do anything you want as long as you're willing to accept the consequences.  Some of us are clearly less worried about them than others here.

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Posted (edited)

The music industry is backed up by genuine copyright laws. Not made up stuff by the industry,
And therefor the moment you DJ and take the tips, you are making money partly/mostly from others peoples efforts (artists, composers, record companies) even if the tips are only peanut payments most of the time.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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10 minutes ago, GoSpeed Racer said:

Wow, the amount of ignorance and ideological posturing on this simple question is mind boggling. Only a couple of responders had answers anywhere close to the desired response.

Since 2007 I have managed an oline radio station that has been legally licensed over the years via Loudcity, StreamLicensing, Sonixcast, and Torontocast. After the rates skyrocketed in 2016 I jumped from an American company to a Canadian one. My rates went from $30 to $75 a month! I found  a Canadian entity where the annual cost was about $100. I now pay $8 a month for licensing, an auto-dj with 20gig storage, 500 slots, and 3 mount points. A nice bargain indeed!

Working with a Canadian company means my stream is one channel on a larger station (Torontocast). My website is hosted on their server and any external webplayer is too. As far as streaming into SL is concerned the viewer is not considered a music app (Like Tune-in, Deezer, or Nobex). It's mre akin to VLC Foobar, or iTunes. You can plug in a URL and that is not "illegal". SL parcels are not websites either nor are they public.

Generally speaking you can do whatever you want in SL streaming wise, but the moment you have a noticeable web presence, you can be targeted.

If the OP would like to know more, they can PM me here or inworld.

I hope all your listeners are in Canada or else you're also violating music industry "laws."

 

From their website

All TorontoCast streams are Licensed by SOCAN under tarring code 22f and are under the ownership of TorontoCast. The SOCAN license covers Canadian listeners. Additionally, there could be licensing obligations in other territories potentially according to those territories licensing laws.

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Posted (edited)

See, that's why I refuse to DJ in SL although it could be a nice hobby for me.
Way to complicated license matters to address.
Now if the club owners would do the same as RL venue owners, namely handling the licenses, than I might consider, but as things are in SL..... no way.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, GoSpeed Racer said:

SL parcels are not websites either nor are they public.

They aren't anything really in any court of law. They aren't even considered property. So they can't be public or private.

 

SL's own FAQ Page:

Why do I have to pay for land?

Getting virtual land in Second Life is a lot like getting a personal website: you can put whatever you want on it, but your site still needs storage space on a computer that is turned on and available on the Internet, 24/7. When you have land in Second Life, you're actually renting storage/server space at Linden Lab. Each piece of land takes up a certain amount of dedicated storage space - the more land, the more space. So, it's like renting a hard drive.

Edited by Finite
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1 hour ago, GoSpeed Racer said:

SL parcels are not websites either nor are they public.

irrelevant.
The stream is public and can be heared by anyone simply by entering the url in the browser, or any other programs as winamp/mediaplayer.
However we'r talking about SL, it's just general webbroadcasting we do here... and is the real subject.
 

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Posted (edited)

It would be nice if someone from LL would trow in their 2 cents on this matter, here or with a blog or wiki post.
Things are really complicated and confusing.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

The stream is public and can be heared by anyone simply by entering the url in the browser, or any other programs as winamp/mediaplayer.
However we'r talking about SL, it's just general webbroadcasting we do here... and is the real subject.

I have a private, not listed Shoutcast stream for my home parcel use.  The only listener is my partner, and since she is seldom on, my private stream runs for maybe 2 hours/week.  It was the cheapest stream I could find, with 10 listeners max at 128 kbps.

My stream provider provides me with daily and weekly statistics for listeners. It varies from 1 (me) to 2 listeners, and for most days it is zero, since the stream is turned off.

The only way to find my stream would be to use an IP snooper with mp3 to wave digital signature software and to randomly search IP#'s and port #'s.  I don't think anyone discovers web stations using random search engines, and would find an unlisted station that runs randomly for 2 hrs/week to be that interesting.  I am not on YouTube, and have no web presence at all.

Maybe the recording industry does search for private IP's with a music stream - that would be a productive use for their millions in royalties they keep from their artists.  But they can't seize my food stamps, so they are out of luck if they try to sue me.

And...

SL Wiki is full of silly CYA comments that have no bearing to reality, so don't quote them.  I have yet to hear of an SL music club, or a DJ busted.  If someone has a documented case feel free to come forward.  The club owners for most venues do play a club stream, some 24/7 from random music on their spare computer. If they do not have a website, and might max out at 10 listeners, I wonder how many pay royalties to anyone?

 

 

 

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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3 hours ago, Talon Brown said:

I had hoped other DJs would chime in here but as usual whenever this subject comes up the majority of SL DJs would rather stay in the shadows than argue over this bullsh*t.

Guilty as charged :)  I have been in the other seemingly annual dicussions where  some law-abiding citizen (potential DJ) has brought this subject up.  But I get way too mad at the armchair lawyers who quote laws that have nothing to do with Second Life.  And, many live in countries where the most common sound from their citizens is Baaaa.

 

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Posted (edited)

I could not care less what you do in SL. Not my beer.

But here in this thread there is the discussion on how to legally DJ in SL.
IMHO it is only legal, when you get a license. And there it gets really complicated: Being licensed in one country doesn't automatically mean that you legally DJ at a SL venue when there are customers listening to your stream from other countries then where you live.

The easy solution is put up a stream and let the music play.
Chances of being caught ......... not that big.
But is it legal? Nope.

How and where to get the right license to DJ in SL?  I have still no clue after 14 years inworld.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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14 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

How and where to get the right license to DJ in SL?  I have still no clue after 14 years inworld.

There is no way.  The music publisher lawyers would laugh if you asked them.  But if they want me to pay Billionaire Sir Mick Jagger 1 penny per year for playing Let It Bleed once a year at my set, I will send him a copper plated zinc penny, if he pays the postage. 

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1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

It would be nice if someone from LL would trow in their 2 cents on this matter, here or with a blog or wiki post.
Things are really complicated and confusing.

 

They have already. 

Streaming your own music into Second Life

It is possible to stream your own music from your computer into SL. Unless you have a large amount of bandwidth available, using your own machine as a streaming server is not really an option. With around 5 users connected you would using most of the bandwidth of a standard DSL line.

Therefore to stream your own music you would require a streaming relay provider. You would send a single stream of music (around 6-8k/s) to the streaming relay provider. The relay would then stream multiple copies of the music into SL.

The two most common streaming server systems at the moment are a Shoutcast and Icecast. You can either set up the server software on one of your own servers or pay someone to host it. Due to the amount of bandwidth required for multiple streams, the price of streaming can vary. Try searching Google for a list of other available hosting solutions.

Remember that streaming copyrighted music across the internet requires a license from your relevant national licensing authority.

 

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Streaming_Music

 

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2 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

irrelevant.
The stream is public and can be heared by anyone simply by entering the url in the browser, or any other programs as winamp/mediaplayer.
However we'r talking about SL, it's just general webbroadcasting we do here... and is the real subject.
 

Relevant,

Anyone, anywhere can place a URL in any media device. By public I mean intended listeners would be required to have an SL account and be logged into SL.

1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

 I have been in the other seemingly annual dicussions where  some law-abiding citizen (potential DJ) has brought this subject up.  But I get way too mad at the armchair lawyers who quote laws that have nothing to do with Second Life.  And, many live in countries where the most common sound from their citizens is Baaaa.

 

Again, having been at this for over 14 years I know what I am talking about. Armchair lawyers sit in their brains and lack the full picture.

If you keep a low profile, you're safe. When you stand out and become noticeable off the grid, then that's where you need to play it safe.

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1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Guilty as charged :)  I have been in the other seemingly annual dicussions where  some law-abiding citizen (potential DJ) has brought this subject up.  But I get way too mad at the armchair lawyers who quote laws that have nothing to do with Second Life.  And, many live in countries where the most common sound from their citizens is Baaaa.

 

It is what it is. Pro or against whatever the subject is everyone is an armchair something in an Internet forum. Take what you like and dismiss what you don’t like. It’s really up to the reader. It’s nothing really to get upset about. People post topics to see multiple views to help them form a decision. If they are only looking for the answers that appease them then they’ll likely be disappointed.

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