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'Banned' while flying at Bellisseria


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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Sister Nova said:

The group only access is handy to have, and is much easier to set than entering a load of names on a whitelist. Although land cannot be deeded to group within Bellisseria, a group can be set on the land. The LL Bellisseria orb has a group access setting.

And yet the Bellisseria covenant says both things. I have it printed in a script window. On line 17 it say, "Land can only be set to group", and yet a few lines furtherdown, line 20 says, "Your Linden Home may not be removed, modified, exchanged, set or deeded to group, or transferred". So it can be set to a group, and it can't be set to a group. I think that just about covers all eventualities :)

On line 60 it says, "Linden Homes do not have the ability to set your parcel access to group access only (which creates ban lines for everyone else)", but you're telling me that the security device that LL provides for Bellisseria homes does support group-only access, "which creates ban lines for everyone else".

Line 80 says that setting the land to a group is one of the benefits.

I have to admit to being quite confused by it. My LevelGuard doesn't even offer to make a level group-only when it's rezzed in Bellisseria. Do I need to change that?, or am I misunderstanding something?

Edited by Phil Deakins
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We recently added that new condition for using security systems to the covenant: "-Does not add names of ejected persons to the parcel ban list automatically" This is in response to situations wh

I still wonder about the people who are so paranoid. Most of my own land is open-rez, 20 minute autoreturn. Very little trouble. There was someone who tried to rez a house in my parking lot, and I tol

To reiterate, if not being able to restrict a parcel to group only, put up huge walls, teleport anyone home who tries to enter or give them a few reasonable warning time to leave before ejecting them

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On 5/13/2021 at 7:16 AM, Silent Mistwalker said:

While I finish reading the thread I have one question that has been bugging me for years.

What is so wrong with being sent home by an orb? It beats the hell out of being sent to an overcrowded hub infested with trolls.

What may be 'so' wrong is the blind automatic return. Where one is returned to is less of a problem than the being returned. While being sent home is likely less bad than being sent to a hub it is sort like being asked which is worse, smashing your thumb or big toe. Neither is a pleasant option. 

When flying, sailing, driving, or walking down the road a return is extremely annoying. The vehicle has to be recovered and rerezzed in a rez-zone - which usually is not conveniently located and often has to be searched for if one is exploring a new area, fast returns can often obfuscate which parcel had the orb making it difficult to avoid on the next trip, and it really screws up my flight log. Orbs are enough of a problem that Shergood Aviation tracks orb ejections and shows them on their aviation map. Parcel group-bans are enough of a problem parcel-ban-detectors are sold in the MP.

On 5/13/2021 at 7:48 AM, Rowan Amore said:

This has always been a complaint and reason giving on many estates too.  Why can't LL set default to OFF instead of on.  Makes more sense to me since as soon as you bump into that invisible barrier, you realize what it is.

I am doubt full people actually do realize whats up. For a time my home was in Fishergate, one region south of a Safe Hub. Newbies get deposited into that Safe Hub and often wondered into my home. If I was home and they were being annoying, I would manually eject them. Several never figured out what was happening and had to be told. If no one explains things to the new I suspect most remain clueless.

================

Since people are logged out of SL for the majority of the time, why do orbs need to function when they are not logged in? It isn't like they can track mud on your floors or pull up your flowers... and none of the orbs or bans keep one from caming in... Program the orb to turn on as soon as one logs in and off on log out. OR on when you enter the parcel and off when you leave...

And whats up with a 10 or 15 second eject? The instant warning is even too much for me. Give a warning at 10 or 15 seconds. The standard warning you have 15 second from  now to leave... would give one 30 seconds total. Fliers, sailors, and other vehicle operators are typically on the move. Why do they have to be ejected?

Why the rush to eject? Especially when you aren't home? Whether they are there for 15 seconds or an hour, you aren't going to know.

If you are there and a noisy helicopter is hovering over you, I understand. One flying low and passing over at 30kph is only going to be over your parcel for 10 to 20 seconds...

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20 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

And yet the Bellisseria covenant says both things. I have it printed in a script window. On line 17 it say, "Land can only be set to group", and yet a few lines furtherdown, line 20 says, "Your Linden Home may not be removed, modified, exchanged, set or deeded to group, or transferred". So it can be set to a group, and it can't be set to a group. I think that just about covers all eventualities :)

On line 60 it says, "Linden Homes do not have the ability to set your parcel access to group access only (which creates ban lines for everyone else)", but you're telling me that the security device that LL provides for Bellisseria homes does support group-only access, "which creates ban lines for everyone else".

Line 80 says that setting the land to a group is one of the benefits.

I have to admit to being quite confused by it. My LevelGuard doesn't even offer to make a level group-only when it's rezzed in Bellisseria. Do I need to change that?, or am I misunderstanding something?

The Bellisseria Linden Home parcel can be set to group.  The house provided to use there is "rooted" to Linden Lab owned land adjacent to the Bellisseria Linden Home parcel.

Annoyingly, and apparently confusingly, they are both called Linden Homes.

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I think there's a distinction between the Linden Home and the parcel that it's sitting on.  When  you have property in Bellisseria, you own the parcel but you do not own the house, which has its root prim on LDPW land outside your parcel.  Therefore, you cannot do anything at all to the house (modify, remove, exchange, transfer ... ) because it's not yours. 

You can't deed the parcel to anyone else or to a group, but you can set it to a group.  All regions in Bellisseria have the ability to set group access only turned off (so no ban lines), but the house controller lets you set access for the house to group only, and you can set the security orb that Linden Lab supplies to allow only group members to enter the parcel.

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39 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

And yet the Bellisseria covenant says both things. I have it printed in a script window. On line 17 it say, "Land can only be set to group", and yet a few lines furtherdown, line 20 says, "Your Linden Home may not be removed, modified, exchanged, set or deeded to group, or transferred". So it can be set to a group, and it can't be set to a group. I think that just about covers all eventualities :)

On line 60 it says, "Linden Homes do not have the ability to set your parcel access to group access only (which creates ban lines for everyone else)", but you're telling me that the security device that LL provides for Bellisseria homes does support group-only access, "which creates ban lines for everyone else".

Line 80 says that setting the land to a group is one of the benefits.

I have to admit to being quite confused by it. My LevelGuard doesn't even offer to make a level group-only when it's rezzed in Bellisseria. Do I need to change that?, or am I misunderstanding something?

Having the LL orb set to group does not create ban lines on a parcel. Orb settings and parcel settings are different. You CAN select group only access on an orb, but NOT on the LH parcel setting (which is the selection that creates ban lines for everyone else).

Yes, I saw that you had set your LevelGuard to NOT have group only access in Bellisseria, I was just trying to be helpful and point out that that is not an issue, and that the LL orb does allow a group only setting.

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32 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

What may be 'so' wrong is the blind automatic return. Where one is returned to is less of a problem than the being returned. While being sent home is likely less bad than being sent to a hub it is sort like being asked which is worse, smashing your thumb or big toe. Neither is a pleasant option. 

When flying, sailing, driving, or walking down the road a return is extremely annoying. The vehicle has to be recovered and rerezzed in a rez-zone - which usually is not conveniently located and often has to be searched for if one is exploring a new area, fast returns can often obfuscate which parcel had the orb making it difficult to avoid on the next trip, and it really screws up my flight log. Orbs are enough of a problem that Shergood Aviation tracks orb ejections and shows them on their aviation map. Parcel group-bans are enough of a problem parcel-ban-detectors are sold in the MP.

 

I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. 🙄

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On 5/13/2021 at 4:16 PM, Silent Mistwalker said:

While I finish reading the thread I have one question that has been bugging me for years.

What is so wrong with being sent home by an orb? It beats the hell out of being sent to an overcrowded hub infested with trolls.

@Nalates Urriahalready  mentioned a few things to consider but I would like to add something to it.

If you are flying around and run into an orb, some really annoying things can happen, and I experienced them all:

  • You just crossed a region border, the orb detected you already but you are not fully rezzed in yet so you are not able to cross within 10 seconds, and get ejected what feels like a 0 seconds warning.
  • You get ejected out of your plane, the plane is stuck at a parcel border, automatic return to your Lost&Found folder doesn't work, so you have to manually delete it because you don't want to litter other residents' homes. In the worst case, SL acts up, deleting won't respond, and not even a relog can help. Eventually you have to ask the parcel owner to return it.
  • You get ejected and teleported home by an orb. Your plane will not stop just because you got ejected, in fact, it keeps running and continues its way on its own. I once had it happen that after such an eject-teleport-home, I was unable to retrieve the plane anymore. I was searching in a quite huge area but to no avail. Since it never got returned, I thought it was one of those incidents where an item vanishes into the nirvana of SL to be never seen again. I was wrong. About 2 weeks later, I found my plane about 10 regions away from where the original incident had happened. So for 2 weeks, I littered someone's place, and a whole region with a still running plane. Not what you want. Neither for yourself, nor for anyone else.

So yes, there are good reasons why such orb settings are a pain, and not just for the passing by traveller but also everyone else who can get affected by it unintentionally.

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Ok. I understand the distinction between the house and the land. So it's ok for my LevelGuard to set group-only and Private levels. When a security device does that, it doesn't cause ban lines. It merely removes anyone who doesn't have the group enabled.

Thank you @Sister Nova for pointing it out to me. And thank you @Ardy Lay and @Rolig Loon for the further explanations.

I'm off to change the LevelGuard so that it offers the options of setting Levels to be Group-only and Private. Fortunately, the change will only take a couple of minutes.

 

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I still wonder about the people who are so paranoid. Most of my own land is open-rez, 20 minute autoreturn. Very little trouble. There was someone who tried to rez a house in my parking lot, and I told them where they could find a big Linden sandbox and rez large objects.

At a few GTFO hubs, my NPCs, wearing "GTFO Hub Loss Prevention" T-shirts, approach new visitors and say hello. They give the impression someone is watching, which is enough to reduce griefing.

I've been tempted to make an NPC in the form of a grumpy old man with a cane who approaches strangers and yells "Get off my lawn". But I don't want to have to deal with the customers who would buy such a product.

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Posted (edited)

The whole issue would be solved if they just set the orbs the same for everyone and didn't allow setting to be changed like the height, time for eject and where to eject to and made it a requirement to use only their security system.

Edited by Sam1 Bellisserian
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Posted (edited)

@Abnor Mole

I'm not keen on the only being allowed to eject rule. The problem with eject is that it plants the trespasser pretty much right outside when the protected area is on the ground, as the Linden Homes are. That's very good from the point of view of an avatar who is intent of being a nuisance, sometimes only after being ejected, but it's not much good for the land-owner.

I know that the owner can then ban the avatar but that doesn't move it far away. Sending it to its Home usually does that, and without any harm to the avatar. In many cases, the avatar wouldn't easily be able to find the place again.

Imo, allowing a minimum of 15 seconds to move on from a Linden Home is more than enough, and those who don't want to move on ought to be sent far away, and not just placed outside.

Also, I see nothing wrong with putting ban lines up for anyone who chooses not to move on when asked/warned to, and given ample time to do so. The lines only appear to that avatar, so it doesn't spoil the neighborhood. I see nothing wrong or negative about using the land's Access system to auto-ban anyone who chooses not to leave. I wouldn't find fault with a rule saying that an auto-ban must not be for more than nnn minutes, but I do find fault with the rule disallowing the auto-use of it.

Since a Bellisseria Linden Home owner is allowed to ban an avatar by hand, and send an avatar to its Home by hand, why is doing those things automatically not allowed? It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think that the 'eject only' and 'auto-ban' rules were thought about sufficiently.
 

ETA: The problem with not being allowed to auto-ban using the Access system is that the avatar can go straight back in again because it has been placed just outside and not sent to its Home. Then it has another 15 seconds minimum to continue being a nuisance because that's the rule. And it could do that over and over again.

It could be auto-put on a security device's black list but that doesn't help at all because it still must have the continual 15 seconds minimum of being a nuisance over and over again, with only a few seconds delay in between. A black list ought to remove black-listed avatars on sight but it isn't allowed to do that in Bellisseria.

A land owner could either ban the avatar by hand and/or send it Home by hand. But why is it necessary to do that when an auto-ban and/or auto send it Home will do exactly the same thing without being detrimental to the neighborhood in any way whatsoever? Remember that an avatar has plenty of time to move if it wants to. It's only those that choose not to that I am talking about, and they deserve to be auto-banned and/or sent Home.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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Posted (edited)

I'm in SL for over 14 years now. Have a parcel on private land, have a house in Bellisseria.
Never used ban lines or orbs. Everyone can rez their junk for a few minutes it they want to.
I never have any harassment, very seldom someone on my parcels uninvited.

What am I doing wrong?
 

Edited by Sid Nagy
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

What am I doing wrong?

You are not organising enough orgies. Try having a few more, and people will come to trespass where they shouldn't be.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

You are not organising enough orgies. Try having a few more, and people will come to trespass where they shouldn't be.

But if you are organising orgies, then surely the more the merrier!

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

I'm in SL for over 14 years now. Have a parcel on private land, have a house in Bellisseria.
Never used ban lines or orbs. Everyone can rez their junk for a few minutes it they want to.
I never have any harassment, very seldom someone on my parcels uninvited.

What am I doing wrong?
 

The only time I have had problems was on a private region I ran. I had to set up an orb and restrict access. The persistent griefer didn't like that I allowed furries. 

Never on mainland have I had any need to do anything other than r-click someone to ban them.

Edited by Aethelwine
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6 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

But if you are organising orgies, then surely the more the merrier!

True, but Sid asked what he was doing wrong because he didn't get trespassers. He wants them :)

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

The whole issue would be solved if they just set the orbs the same for everyone and didn't allow setting to be changed like the height, time for eject and where to eject to and made it a requirement to use only their security system.

If by "they" you mean the LH security system, they already meet all those requirements, other than forcing everyone to use the LH security system. No reason for the same settings, as long as they meet the LH TOS security rules - I set eject time to 60 secs so I don't dump folks out of their hot air balloons.  And then I turn the security OFF, because I am not doing something illegal  on my land. 

 

 

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

The whole issue would be solved if they just set the orbs the same for everyone and didn't allow setting to be changed like the height, time for eject and where to eject to and made it a requirement to use only their security system.

You mean to just turn it on and off, without the ability to change any settings? That would work for the ground, if the maximum height that is protected is below 400m. But buildings are allowed in the sky above 2000m, and an additional security device would be needed for those, so we are in this discussion :)

Edited by Phil Deakins
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3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

ETA: The problem with not being allowed to auto-ban using the Access system is that the avatar can go straight back in again because it has been placed just outside and not sent to its Home. Then it has another 15 seconds minimum to continue being a nuisance because that's the rule. And it could do that over and over again.

It could be auto-put on a security device's black list but that doesn't help at all because it still must have the continual 15 seconds minimum of being a nuisance over and over again, with only a few seconds delay in between. A black list ought to remove on sight but it can't in Bellisseria.

This is what can happen when you have a friend visiting and you have to deal with RL for a while.  Unless you add all your friends to your security admin they are left with the only option being to tp away or log out while being harassed (if they're new they might not even think how to do that).  It doesn't contribute to a relaxing atmosphere.

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But it doesn't happen "when you have a friend visiting you and you have to deal with RL for a while". Your friend is already allowed to be there, and a security system won't remove them.

If you mean that you are afk when, on an odd occasion, a friend turns up unannounced, then it would happen, and you'd have to unban him/her, which only takes a few seconds.

Imo, the benefits gained by auto-banning someone who chooses not to leave when asked, far outweigh the odd occasion when a friend turns up unannounced. Also, when you go afk, you can turn the security off, just in case :)

 

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6 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

I'm in SL for over 14 years now. Have a parcel on private land, have a house in Bellisseria.
Never used ban lines or orbs. Everyone can rez their junk for a few minutes it they want to.
I never have any harassment, very seldom someone on my parcels uninvited.

What am I doing wrong?
 

This right here. I have had a house in Bellisseria since they opened.  Not one time have I ever had anyone come to my land where I had to eject or ban anyone and I've had homes in various locations.  If they happened to show up and I'm not there or online who cares? Even on the mainland I only had a handful of people that showed up and I have only banned one person from any land I owned in the 3 years I've been here.  

 

4 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

You mean to just turn it on and off, without the ability to change any settings? That would work for the ground, if the maximum height that is protected is below 400m. But buildings are allowed in the sky above 2000m, and an additional security device would be needed for those, so we are in this discussion :)

There is a sky alert option you can turn on in the LL security system so just one needed. I would assume the LL security system ignores any banning or ejecting automatically from 400m to 2000m as that is in the covenant.  

When you have such a restrictive covenant and you also have a security system, that you give out for free, for those homes then why even allow other orbs or security systems.  

The problem came in when they allowed other orbs to be used but said that they had to follow the LL covenant. 

 

4 hours ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

This is what can happen when you have a friend visiting and you have to deal with RL for a while.  Unless you add all your friends to your security admin they are left with the only option being to tp away or log out while being harassed (if they're new they might not even think how to do that).  It doesn't contribute to a relaxing atmosphere.

Realistically though how often does this even happen?  How many times have you been away from your computer doing RL things and your friend has been at your place and they have been bothered?  Once? Twice?

I find all this "security" talk amusing. As someone else said no one can move your objects and if you don't want your furniture used when you are not online then set it to owner only. Make sure your parcel is set to restrict voice and chat to your parcel as well as unclick "avatars on other parcels can see and chat with avatars on this parcel" Keep all voice chats out of local and you are good.

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

There is a sky alert option you can turn on in the LL security system so just one needed. I would assume the LL security system ignores any banning or ejecting automatically from 400m to 2000m as that is in the covenant.  

What does the sky alert do? Does it eject trespassers, or is it just an alert where it tells the owner that someone is up there?

Even if it ejects people up there, it's still not good enough, because a home owner might want more flexibility than that; i.e. protection for one or more skyboxes when the home protection is turned off.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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