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'Banned' while flying at Bellisseria


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We recently added that new condition for using security systems to the covenant: "-Does not add names of ejected persons to the parcel ban list automatically" This is in response to situations wh

I still wonder about the people who are so paranoid. Most of my own land is open-rez, 20 minute autoreturn. Very little trouble. There was someone who tried to rez a house in my parking lot, and I tol

To reiterate, if not being able to restrict a parcel to group only, put up huge walls, teleport anyone home who tries to enter or give them a few reasonable warning time to leave before ejecting them

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6 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I wonder what that does for SL's retention rate -- you're happily walking along exploring the place and start bouncing off invisible obstacles for no apparent reason.   

That wouldn't really impress me with the quality of the platform if I was a new user taking a look at SL for the first time.    

I'm sure a few people have left because of it but it sure didn't discourage me in the least.  The security orb was more disturbing. A ban line doesn't hurl you off to heaven knows where.  If one is so put off by a simple invisible wall, they'll probably find many more things (truly horrid things) to be put off by.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

If Linden Lab is - as they once suggested they would do - planning on rolling existing Linden Homes users into the new continent (for any reason) then they really do need to remove that restriction or set aside entire segments that do not have it.

At risk of sounding rather cold, I don't see why they need to do anything of the sort.

While I've not checked this against the original LH Covenant and other documentation, I'd be astonished if you haven't at some point agreed that LL can do precisely as they see fit when it comes to this kind of detail, so why shouldn't they if they decide that's what they want to do, taking into account their assessment of what most of their premium members who want to have the new Linden Homes would prefer (and how many who would prefer ban lines really see it as important), and what's technically possible and cost-effective? 

Edited by Innula Zenovka
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

At risk of sounding rather cold, I don't see why they need to do anything of the sort.

While I've not checked this against the original LH Covenant and other documentation, I'd be astonished if you haven't at some point agreed that LL can do precisely what they want to when it comes to this kind of detail, so why shouldn't they if they decide that's what they want to do, taking into account their assessment of what most of their premium members who want to have the new Linden Homes would prefer (and how many who would prefer ban lines really see it as important), and what's technically possible and cost-effective? 

Simply put, being "vocal" (as some vehicle users are) is not a measure whatsoever of what one's user base actually wants nor does it showcase any sort of majority.

It is one thing to create a new community area and something wholly different to force a segment of their user base into said area or to shell out money on an inferior "substitute" (normal Mainland)/pay grossly inflated prices to secure a similar experience/product ("double prim/LI" parcels).

It is bad enough that there are users suggesting that Linden Lab roll out similar rules/restrictions across all of the Mainland and the older Linden Homes.

Just ... No.

Edited by Solar Legion
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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I'm sure a few people have left because of it but it sure didn't discourage me in the least.  The security orb was more disturbing. A ban line doesn't hurl you off to heaven knows where.  If one is so put off by a simple invisible wall, they'll probably find many more things (truly horrid things) to be put off by.

 

 

Yes, but we know SL has a terribly low retention rate.    Certainly if you log back in more than two or three times, you're likely to keep on coming back, at least for a while, but apparently very few people ever log in a second time.

There's all sorts of reasons for that, but the point is that people like us -- who made it through the whole sign up process and figured things out (often with the help of friends who were already in SL) and kept on coming back -- are part of the very small minority who didn't get put off.

LL are presumably doing what they can to remove some of the obstacles that we successfully negotiated but very few others do.  

Edited by Innula Zenovka
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1 hour ago, Odaks said:

If you are driving a vehicle, flying a plane or sailing a boat, the usual effect of hitting a ban line is that the driver becomes detached from the vehicle. Both go their separate ways. Ban lines loom into sight when you get close to them; if a bit of lag is in force, you have no chance whatsoever and, as often as not, by the time you see them anyway it may be too late to avoid hitting them. If all that happened was a harmless bounce, things wouldn't be so bad. Unfortunately, that is not what happens and your journey ends there in disarray. Turning ban lines visibility off only has aesthetic value. It only worsens the traveller's situation.

@animats toiled to script a solution. I cannot remember the outcome, but I seem to remember he made good progress. I don't have time to research at present.

 

There are several cases.

  • Object entry is turned off, the visible ban line case.This isn't so bad. All the ban line does is turn physics off for the vehicle. You can use the Edit menu to back the vehicle out and turn physics back on. The root of the vehicle has to hit the ban line before the root of any avatar on board hits. My bikes do this automatically. That workaround is not too helpful for aircraft, because you're stopped in midair and aimed into the ban line.
  • Object entry is turned on, but avatar entry is prohibited.This is bad. The vehicle gets in fine, and the avatar is torn off the vehicle. This is a cause of aircraft stuck in the sky. No way to fix this from a script.
  • Aggressive security orbs. Can't recover from those.
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3 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Yes, but we know SL has a terribly low retention rate.    Certainly if you log back in more than two or three times, you're likely to keep on coming back, at least for a while, but apparently very few people ever log in a second time.

There's all sorts of reasons for that, but the point is that people like us -- who made it through the whole sign up process and figured things out (often with the help of friends who were already in SL) and kept on coming back -- are part of the very small minority who didn't get put off.

LL are presumably doing what they can to remove some of the obstacles that we successfully negotiated but very few others do.  

We'll have to agree to disagree on invisible banlines being even a small reason people don't stay in SL.  Bumping into something you can't see as opposed to being hurled off a parcel?  Bump beats hurled any day, IMHO.  You get a nice message explaining why you can't enter.  It's not that off putting.

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2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

I meant more like access denies because of avatar age or no payment info.  We get a few here now and them asking why they can't access a region.  I panicked more when I encountered my first security orb.  OMG I'd entered a restricted area!  All of a sudden I'm tossed off somewhere with no idea what happened.  Ah good times.

I understood what you meant. It was simply beside my point is all. Which was no one can see invisible ban lines (well a Linden can of course) regardless of how long they've been in SL. Personally, I'd rather be able to see them so I know where and who to avoid in the future. And not be bounced half way across the sim as I am trudging along, minding my own business and not bothering anyone. Unless, of course, just the presence of another avatar moving through the area is bothersome.

There are a few avatars that go on my ban list if I have any land at any given time. Those are permanent. That means those people are not welcome at any time for any reason.

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3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on invisible banlines being even a small reason people don't stay in SL.  Bumping into something you can't see as opposed to being hurled off a parcel?  Bump beats hurled any day, IMHO.  You get a nice message explaining why you can't enter.  It's not that off putting.

We will have to agree to disagree, I think, because I cannot see how, in the context of the present discussion, ban lines, whether visible or not, can in be ever be in any way preferable to the current Bellisseria Terms of Service.     

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I read all this stuff with interest and vague amusement.

What will be, will be.

There is no way LL can please everyone.  They used to please me, and I invested heavily; then things started to change, and I have gradually reduced my investment.  I'm not expecting you to change, but I do state why I no longer pay for stuff any more.  Your choice, your profits.

So LL (and tame moles), minimal LL investment while obnoxious *****s can ban me forever for flying over their mud hut once - even if they do have to make an inhuman decision and can't let the robot do it.

 

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Some of the waterways can be block by parcels with the avatar entry turned off, sometimes making it squeeze to get through. I've seen a few cases where the owner split the parcel and put the part in the water open to everyone.

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2 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

We will have to agree to disagree, I think, because I cannot see how, in the context of the present discussion, ban lines, whether visible or not, can in be ever be in any way preferable to the current Bellisseria Terms of Service.     

Are these allowed in Belli? If so I think I'd rather see ban lines than signs like these everywhere. Because that's what people would start doing. Especially that bottom one.

personnel-private-property-sign-s-2452.p

notiH171-privatepropertykeepout__20965.1

 

oops Maybe I shouldn't have posted those and give people ideas.

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8 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Are these allowed in Belli? If so I think I'd rather see ban lines than signs like these everywhere. Because that's what people would start doing. Especially that bottom one.

personnel-private-property-sign-s-2452.p

notiH171-privatepropertykeepout__20965.1

 

oops Maybe I shouldn't have posted those and give people ideas.

I remember seeing modified to say "Orb in operation - 30 seconds before eject."

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16 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Perhaps because - until recently - they treated it/understood it for what it was: Bellyaching over a visual indicator that was - at worst - a very minor nuisance.

There are far worse visual irritations than ban lines.

They are enough to spoil the investment in a mainland parcel. A few years ago I found a nice 512 parcel by a waterway. A few weeks after setting up my boathouse the neighbour turned their banlines on. They illuminated my home like an apartment in Tokyo. I tried building a wall to obscure them, tried instructing visitors on how to turn them off. I tried talking to the new owners. But none really worked so I ended up cutting my losses and abandoning it. 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

They are enough to spoil the investment in a mainland parcel. A few years ago I found a nice 512 parcel by a waterway. A few weeks after setting up my boathouse the neighbour turned their banlines on. They illuminated my home like an apartment in Tokyo. I tried building a wall to obscure them, tried instructing visitors on how to turn them off. I tried talking to the new owners. But none really worked so I ended up cutting my losses and abandoning it. 

system banlines are simple to hide, at least in firestorm, i'm not sure about LL or other 3rd party viewers... ór other possible objects that shows borderlines.( these last can be, again firestorm, derendered)

Edited by Alwin Alcott
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21 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

They are enough to spoil the investment in a mainland parcel. A few years ago I found a nice 512 parcel by a waterway. A few weeks after setting up my boathouse the neighbour turned their banlines on. They illuminated my home like an apartment in Tokyo. I tried building a wall to obscure them, tried instructing visitors on how to turn them off. I tried talking to the new owners. But none really worked so I ended up cutting my losses and abandoning it. 

 

1 minute ago, Alwin Alcott said:

system banlines are simple to hide, at least in firestorm, i'm not sure about LL or other 3rd party viewers... ór other possible objects that shows borderlines.( these last can be, again firestorm, derendered)

Unless it is onlt exposed/present in Firestorm, there is a Debug setting that allows you to shut off the display of Ban Lines.

Mind, this setting should be present in the normal display preferences so as to make it easier to hide them from view.

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8 hours ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Some of the waterways can be block by parcels with the avatar entry turned off, sometimes making it squeeze to get through. I've seen a few cases where the owner split the parcel and put the part in the water open to everyone.

some people aren't to bad . but it's of course a design failure from start. canals and waterways should never be totally in hands of a resident. In the middle it would be very usefull to have at least 8m (2 blocks) wide linden owned water.
8 meters would be enough... sailing residents have their own responsibility of size.

But this is off topic in this thread, residents in Belliseria only have their own parcel, can be on water, but never own the surrounding waterways.

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3 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

 

Unless it is onlt exposed/present in Firestorm, there is a Debug setting that allows you to shut off the display of Ban Lines.

Mind, this setting should be present in the normal display preferences so as to make it easier to hide them from view.

I know, but it is still an irritation having to change the setting yourself and to talk visitors through it each time you visit. The repetition and negative responses from guests soon builds up to the point where it is better to just move out. 

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Posted (edited)

I've altered the LevelGuard so that it automatically detects when it is rezzed in Bellisseria and, when detected, it won't allow the user to set things so that they break Bellisseria's covenant. I.e. no levels that encroach on the 400m to 2000m free-fly zone, no group-only levels, no private levels, no auto-ban, only eject, and a minimum of 15 seconds to clear the parcel. When not in Bellisseria, it works as normal.

It's onsale in the inworld store, but not yet in the marketplace.

If anyone has a place in Bellisseria, and would like a free one for trying out, I'd be interested in some feedback. I.e. does it go wrong anywhere? :)

 

Edited by Phil Deakins
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On 5/14/2021 at 9:37 AM, Alwin Alcott said:

system banlines are simple to hide, at least in firestorm, i'm not sure about LL or other 3rd party viewers... ór other possible objects that shows borderlines.( these last can be, again firestorm, derendered)

 

In The Original Never Troublesome Official SL Viewer™, the path to the setting of ban lines visible or not is in the menu bar: World > Show > Ban Lines

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1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said:

I've altered the LevelGuard so that it automatically detects when it is rezzed in Bellisseria and, when detected, it won't allow the user to set things so that they break Bellisseria's covenant. I.e. no levels that encroach on the 400m to 2000m free-fly zone, no group-only levels, no private levels, no auto-ban, only eject, and a minimum of 15 seconds to clear the parcel. When not in Bellisseria, it works as normal.

It's onsale in the inworld store, but not yet in the marketplace.

If anyone has a place in Bellisseria, and would like a free one for trying out, I'd be interested in some feedback. I.e. does it go wrong anywhere? :)

 

The group only access is handy to have, and is much easier to set than entering a load of names on a whitelist. Although land cannot be deeded to group within Bellisseria, a group can be set on the land. The LL Bellisseria orb has a group access setting.

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