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I use a mixture of appliers and BOM, so yes I like BOM, but I also dislike BOM for the trend I've been seeing where creators completely ditch appliers altogether. On the extreme side, there are a few stores that seem to assume everyone loves BOM so they even replaced their old appliers with all BOM. Just give people a choice which to use! BOMs great, but so are appliers.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, AdminGirl said:

I use a mixture of appliers and BOM, so yes I like BOM, but I also dislike BOM for the trend I've been seeing where creators completely ditch appliers altogether. On the extreme side, there are a few stores that seem to assume everyone loves BOM so they even replaced their old appliers with all BOM. Just give people a choice which to use! BOMs great, but so are appliers.

Yeah, this would be a drag if creator's drop appliers.  As far as technology-wise BOM may be great but aesthetically it's not as good, especially for make-ups and most of those fixes are hit or miss - there is nose fix, lip fix, concealer fix, all kinds of fixes that will just confuse and frustrate people plus the applier make-ups were better.  It would have been better just to go to alpha masked hair and eyelashes, imo, but they wanted to attempt to make all these textures go into one but that doesn't mean it will please the customer.  The customer is looking for a look that they like/love.  I'm giving it some time here but still I don't care for those lipsticks especially and most of those lipstick fit over the lips.  A few skins I've seen with some lip color painted onto the skin itself and that is alright but I'm not gonna rave about it.

Edited by JanuarySwan
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Since going BoM I haven't wasted my time with appliers. I wear more BoM than appliers would allow. I only have one item I wish I could get a BoM version of or rather I wish I'd bought the system version before it was retired. the only reason I never got it was that I didn't think system layers/BoM would ever be relevant again 

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1 hour ago, JanuarySwan said:

I find the fit is not as good also and it takes a long time to find a fit on the lips and shadows are off on the nose.

   That's not an issue of it being BoM, though. There is absolutely no difference between applying a texture via applier, or using a system layer, in regards to how the UV mapping functions (except for the applier onion layers being scaled up by a few micrometres to appear on top of each other, rather like a Russian doll). One of my alts use the Lilly head, and is fully BoM, including Izzie's nostril lightener:

b0db79c5acc49c520c859702d6c9fdb3.png

1 hour ago, JanuarySwan said:

I think the bump maps look too grainy and more like a sandpaper face and the shine looks fake like a doll or greasy and I'd never use it.

   BoM does not support material channels. What materials you have depends entirely on which settings you use from the body and head HUDs. There are ways to change the material textures for the skin layer via third party HUDs, just the way appliers did, and you have the option to turn materials off completely as well as adjusting glossiness, intensity, hue, and environmental - everything exactly the same as when using appliers.

1 hour ago, JanuarySwan said:

I don't want shine or bump so I'll pass on the HD stuff, even the lips look greasy and it's just not me.

   If you don't want shine or bump, going BoM is actually an improvement as you won't be applying speculars or normals when wearing system layers. Many appliers did. The HD stuff is not BoM, the whole thing with them is that you use an applier with a specific UV for an onion layer representing a smaller portion of the face, accommodating a higher pixel density and specific materials - which, frankly, is a step backwards in many aspects; it makes absolutely no sense to use a full resolution texture for a pair of lips that are very seldom going to be zoomed into until they take up the majority of the screen for anyone - it's the whole 1024 x 1024 button texture issue all over again. I feel like I'm starting to sound like a virtual environmentalist, but texture and script pollution in avatar design are easily in the upper portion of the list of reasons why SL's performance tends to be so bad; unlike in games where game designers (ideally) allocate a fairly large portion of their time considering resource management, SL is a public canvas where anyone are free to doodle.

   Remember shooters from the late 90's and early 2000's where you'd often have ramps instead of stairs? That's not because making stairs was at all difficult, heck, 11-year old me thought that creating a map for such a game with pleeenty of stairs was a great idea to make it stand out by the level of detail - until compiling the map almost broke my PC and actually playing on the map turned out to be practically impossible as drawing it took wa-hay more resources than the game was supposed to use. It's why I'll triangle-shame creators who make clutter and knick-knacks with meshes with unreasonably high complexity for what they're trying to represent; if a teacup with a lemon slice in it has a higher draw weight than your average partial mesh house, something is seriously wrong. And yet, in SL, it's pretty much the norm.

   Just as an example, I'm currently sat in my girlfriend's house and she's got a candle on the coffee table that has 24,232 triangles. Her house, a Linden Stilt Home, has 24,881 - and the Linden Homes are unfortunately a terrible example of resource management not being high enough on the list of priorities in the design process.

8f05abe405115177e2502cf511840a01.png
   Someone ought'a be keelhauled for this ..

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Posted (edited)

Complaints about the "fit" of BOM skins, etc., reveal just how messed-up creators' UV maps are. It's the same effect as using an applier skin fitted to one creator's mesh body on a body from a different creator, it's just that BOM makes it easy to try, and hence reveals how obviously inept the mesh creators are. You have to wonder just what they thought was to be gained by nudging the nipple slightly up/down and towards center or away in the UV map. Skin artists—a fastidious lot, on the whole—must be driven crazy by this mindless mesh sloppiness, when there's no reason (humanoid) mesh bodies don't have the identical UV map projected identically on them all.

I love BOM for all the reasons folks have cited, especially @Eddy Vortex's observation that the whole look is represented in the outfit, not hidden in some permutation of long-forgotten appliers.

... the whole look, that is, except materials. I didn't expect to care much about this, but I've taken to wearing exotic cyberpunk tattoos with extreme material effects. (Yeah, if you don't have ALM enabled, there's not much point looking at my avatar—nor at much of anything I rez in-world.) And ideally these effects would go on top of a custom normalmap I generally apply to my skin "layer". Now, theoretically, there can be no "right" way to combine normalmaps in general, but I find this all works fine on bodies that retain at least one "onionskin" layer on which I can apply the tattoo materials, while my personal normalmap applies to the BOM "skin" layer. My one purely BOM body (Slink Redux) is a marvel of rendering efficiency, but with just the one BOM layer it requires me to choose just one set of materials to apply. The theoretically correct solution is to combine those maps myself, but of course I don't have the original images for commercial tattoos (and I'm not about to rip them just for effect), so that's one thing I'd really like to see added to a next-gen BOM: naive materials-baking.

Edited by Qie Niangao
"cite"-"cited", "effect"-"effects"
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23 hours ago, Tattooshop said:

Hello! ;)

I understand that this is a scream into space, but I just want to give my opinion.
this update has raised my doubts since its inception.
yes, it's cool that "you can now wear your favorite skin on a mesh body", but what's the use if most of them just don't fit?
Now that this novelty has appeared (well, you know what I mean), you will have to wear not one, not two, but four layers, for the body, head, eyebrows and even ears! I can live without the hairbase - 5. call me old fashioned, but why such a setup? not sure if anyone is paying special attention to your ears.
personally in this position I feel like a cabbage or a special forces soldier hung with ammunition. I understand when it's accessories and so on ... but it's just a skin, guys! it could only be one layer! I don't understand what's the point of hundreds of layers. The purpose of the mesh was to apply various effects to it without increasing the number of attachments. it loses its functionality due to the bom.
You say - don't like it, don't use it, just wondering if I'm the only one not very "happy" with the bom?

:)

The combination of your username and this post is a bit... um...

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Posted (edited)

BOM gets rid of a lot of the onion layers on newer released mesh bodies/updates and heads which reduced the mesh complexity and lag. It also bakes all your layers onto one texture, so you are not walking around with multiple textures which also makes things run smoother. I do prefer lipsticks/eyeshadow as an applier as I can adjust the transparency (all my BOM heads still have this option). BOM skin apply differently, but they are the same exact skin texture being applied to the same exact place.

Akeruka recently released some of their newer heads and they use the Lelutka UV map (with Lelutka's permission I am told). BOM makes this great because now I can use all my BOM Lelutka skins on a new head which previously had little skin support. If my skins were all appliers, they would not work.

Materials are handled by the mesh head HUD and body HUD. The bump and shiny can be turned down or off there. The BOM skin itself does not have bump/shininess.

It is my belief that appliers are old content and will be phased out eventually.

Edited by Mercedes Avon
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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Orwar said:

That's not an issue of it being BoM, though. There is absolutely no difference between applying a texture via applier, or using a system layer, in regards to how the UV mapping functions (except for the applier onion layers being scaled up by a few micrometres to appear on top of each other, rather like a Russian doll). One of my alts use the Lilly head, and is fully BoM, including Izzie's nostril lightener:

If it's not a BOM issue, why the nose fix at all, not to mention at least 5-6 other "fixes"?  The lip fix was a failure for my skin as well.  I'm not messing with that ever again.  I pay far more attention now.  If the lip doesn't fit or I have to wear lips over the lip line, it's a joke and the skin should be about 10 lindens.  

 

20 hours ago, Orwar said:

If you don't want shine or bump

Most of the HD stuff has bump or shine built into it in the HUD, and when I said it looks like sandpaper face I meant the MP photos that people put up to sell a skin.  It looks like sandpaper face and faces do not look like that.  If they are trying to sell a skin with a photo like that, it's a turn off and not attractive.  As far as a feature in the HD hud with the bump and shiny, too much hassle and looks like a doll or greasy.  The applier skins don't look like that, man.  

Edited by JanuarySwan
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Just now, JanuarySwan said:

If it's not a BOM issue, why the nose fix at all, not to mention at least 5-6 other "fixes".

   Mine isn't a 'fix', there's nothing 'wrong' with the nose. The only thing it does is make the nostril shading a little brighter; the skin creator could just as well have done that on the skin directly, it's simply an aesthetic choice I made because I felt like it improved the look, as the skin itself had pitch black nostrils which looked off due to my avatar's nose shape.

3 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

The lip fix was a failure for my skin as well.  I'm not messing with that ever again.  I pay far more attention now.  If the lip doesn't fit or I have to wear lips over the lip line, it's a joke and the skin should be about 10 lindens.

   If things don't fit, it's not 'because it's BoM', it's because either:

  • The skin is designed for a different head/body than what you are using (i.e. 'user error')
  • It's of poor quality (and price is never an indicator of quality)

   There have been, and probably are, several gift skins of great quality, that are BoM, for most of the large brands. Or you can sink thousands of L$ into a skin because the description says it'll fit, and it looks pretty in the overtly photoshopped advert. My second alt's first setup was:

  • A Maitreya body bought on sale.
  • A free mesh head.
  • A free BoM skin.

   As far as quality was concerned, it is all really good; all pieces were from first grade brands. The head she uses now is a different, also free, mesh head, and the first skin I got for that was also a Christmas freebie, from a reputable brand, and it looked excellent. I then bought this skin she uses now, which is not at all a famous skin brand, but the quality is excellent and it was relatively inexpensive. 

   It's all a matter of testing things out, and finding something that works for you; but at no point, in any way at all, are any issues 'because it's BoM'. 

14 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

Most of the HD stuff has bump or shine built in to it in the HUD, and when I said it looks like sandpaper face I meant the MP photos that people put up to sell a skin.

   I'm not sure what you're referring to. MP photos should never be used as a reference when buying a skin; many of them have been heavily edited in photoshop, some even with skin sampling or face melding with real pictures. You should always demo a skin before you buy it, and if a store doesn't offer demos, find a different one.

17 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

As far as a feature in the HD hud with the bump and shiny, too much hassle and looks like a doll or greasy.  The applier skins don't look like that, man.

   If it looks 'greasy' or 'like a doll', you've simply set it too high. It's as easy as: selecting the specular and bump map settings (most heads will have a few options), setting the glossiness, intensity, and environment sliders to where you'd like them, and you can, at least in my head, change the hue of the specular reflection. 

Snapshot-022.png

   My regular settings: a soft bump and very little specular glossiness.

Snapshot-024.png

   Materials turned off.

Snapshot-023.png

Glossiness and intensity cranked up, the skin looks oiled up / sweaty.

Snapshot-025.png

   Environment slider whacked up; send help.

   Applier skins work exactly the same way, the only difference being that the texture applied may have a different specular and normal map, whereas a BoM skin doesn't, and thus rely either on the ones offered in the head's HUD, or ones applied via a third party HUD. 

   To most people, operating a few simple sliders isn't 'a hassle', it's a tool that allows us to create fun and interesting aesthetic effects, and create more realistic (or idealised) looks. 

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52 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

If it's not a BOM issue, why the nose fix at all, not to mention at least 5-6 other "fixes"?  The lip fix was a failure for my skin as well.  I'm not messing with that ever again.  I pay far more attention now.  If the lip doesn't fit or I have to wear lips over the lip line, it's a joke and the skin should be about 10 lindens.  

The "fixes" are to use skins that aren't made for that specific head. They're not necessary for appliers because you generally can't use skins that aren't made for that specific head. Meanwhile, if you use BOM to apply the same texture that a bespoke applier does, it will look identical.

Two be blunt, this thread seems to be breaking down into two groups - those who like BOM and those who don't understand how it works.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Orwar said:

 If things don't fit, it's not 'because it's BoM', it's because either:

  • The skin is designed for a different head/body than what you are using (i.e. 'user error')
  • It's of poor quality (and price is never an indicator of quality)

The head is an EVO and the skin says EVO and I even had a thread or a post about it with a nose close-up I showed here on the forum.  I did not notice the nose shading was off at first.  It's EVO/EVO and was all doubled checked.  

If other's are complaining about "fit" as I am, we aren't making it up.  The applier skins just fit better for what ever reasons.

Edited by JanuarySwan
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5 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

The head is an EVO and the skin says EVO and I even had a thread or a post about it with a nose close-up I showed here on the forum.  I did not notice the nose shading was off at first.  It's EVO/EVO and was all doubled checked.  

If other's are complaining about "fit" as I am, we aren't making it up.  The applier skins just fit better for what ever reasons.

Yep:

https://medsafe.govt.nz/profs/PUArticles/March2019/The nocebo effect.htm

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3 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

The applier skins just fit better for what ever reasons.

   You do realise that you're basically repeating '2 + 2 = 5', right?

   That's not how UV maps work.

   The Evo line contains several, different heads. That something has been designed to fit with one head does not mean that it will look good on another, it's why we demo things; some Evo heads have sharper noses and would look awful with a skin designed with the shading for a rounder nose, and vice versa.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   You do realise that you're basically repeating '2 + 2 = 5', right?

   That's not how UV maps work.

   The Evo line contains several, different heads. That something has been designed to fit with one head does not mean that it will look good on another, it's why we demo things; some Evo heads have sharper noses and would look awful with a skin designed with the shading for a rounder nose, and vice versa.

It just says EVO on the skin as do most.  And, yes, it does seem like a bit of "magic" so I'll put it another way...applier skins, for whatever reasons just seemed to fit more variety of shapes.  I never had a problem with fit before, well, sometimes a lip wasn't exactly what I wanted...but I also think the skin you show above has too much shadow under the nose.  It's too emphasized under the nose, imo.  For whatever reasons, I don't like all that shading under the nose and mine has that too, that's why I bought the nose fix but it doesn't work.  I sometimes find the eyes and nose bridge are overly shaded too.  So, why the difference then?  One far more shaded than the other 'if' it's not a BOM problem?

Edited by JanuarySwan
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1 minute ago, JanuarySwan said:

It just says EVO on the skin as do most.  And, yes, it does seem like a bit of "magic" so I'll put it another way...applier skins, for whatever reasons just seemed to fit more variety of shapes.

   That something says it's made for something is not a guarantee that it will fit, that it will look nice, or that it will work at all; this is why we demo things. Skin shading and shape has always been 'a thing'; this is why we demo things. You're outright admitting not to understand this 'magic', so changing your argument is entirely futile and pointless; your assumptions and your conclusions are wrong

6 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

but I also think the skin you show above has too much shadow under the nose.

   That is not 'because it's BoM', that is because 'the creator took a creative decision and shaded that part of the skin like that, and whether they'd put the texture into an applier or put the texture in a system layer, it would look the bloody same'. 

   Second Life does not have realistic lighting, and so creators compensate by baking and painting shadows to things. Personally I'd much rather have that shadow there, than looking like I'm fully illuminated from all angles at all times.

10 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

For whatever reasons, I don't like all that shading under the nose and mine has that too, that's why I bought the nose fix but it doesn't work.

   The nose fix is explicitly made to make pre-mesh skins, i.e. old system skins, compatible with the UV maps of mesh heads, as a lot of people were hyped about using their old, pre-mesh skins; it's essentially the exact same thing like the finger and toe fixes for bodies since old 'system avatars' didn't have any nails and so had them painted onto the skins. It is not meant to be a 'magical fix as in to aesthetically please each individual's preferences in terms of the extent of shading'. 

   If you don't like BoM, go ahead, use appliers - no one's going to stop you.

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4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Sounds like a skin creator issue and not a BOM issue and what @Theresa Tennysonsaid.

If the shadow is permanently there then it doesn't look natural because for one it can look like dirt under one's nose if further away camera-wise, and then in other positions for the head the shadow would not be there such as tilting one's head up.  Orwar's photos above with the heavy nose shading are the reason I bought the nose fix but it doesn't work.  I cannot enjoy the skin with that kind of shading as it's always there.  It's a baked in shadow.  Now Orwar may like it but his pictures with the heavy nose shading and heavy shading between the brow and bridge of the nose are why I don't like the new BOM skins.  Why some are making them that way, I don't know.  I don't make them.  I may try another head and skin eventually but I'm waiting until something strikes me as to what I really want and it will need soft shading.

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1 minute ago, JanuarySwan said:

I may try another head and skin eventually but I'm waiting until something strikes me as to what I really want and it will need soft shading.

Unshaded-Skin.png

   A totally free skin texture, that you may tint to whichever skin tone you want, no shading to worry about whatsoever. You're welcome.

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1 minute ago, JanuarySwan said:

If the shadow is permanently there then it doesn't look natural because for one it can look like dirt under one's nose if further away camera-wise, and then in other positions for the head the shadow would not be there such as tilting one's head up.  Orwar's photos above with the heavy nose shading are the reason I bought the nose fix but it doesn't work.  I cannot enjoy the skin with that kind of shading as it's always there.  It's a baked in shadow.  Now Orwar may like it but his pictures with the heavy nose shading and heavy shading between the brow and bridge of the nose are why I don't like the new BOM skins.  Why some are making them that way, I don't know.  I don't make them.  I may try another head and skin eventually but I'm waiting until something strikes me as to what I really want and it will need soft shading.

I can't imagine every skin creators doing the exact same shading on their skins but ok.

 

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It seems to me that people are trying on BOM skins they simply do not like. People's tastes vary. That same skin could be added to an applier and my guess is that they still would not like it. BOM does not change the UV map in any way. The skin texture in an applier and the skin texture used on a system layer (BOM) are identical and being applied to an identical location. Also, as long as I have been in SL (BOM is not actually a new concept being as that is how we all wore skins back in the pre-mesh body days) lipsticks not fitting well across different skins has been an issue. I find one nude colored lipstick I like and that fits well and tint it the color I want at the moment.

 

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  There are many skins I don't like for one reason or another.  Before and after BOM was introduced.  Some added an excessive highlight or yes, odd shading in various areas.  One skin from a creator might be alright but they next I try from them, I don't like.  Although some creators do horrible shading on all of their skins.  BOM and applier.  I never buy from them.  

None of the ones below have excess shading in the vendor pic.  It may look slightly different depending on which Evo head you're using and how you've edited it.  I demoed 375646388 skins before finding what I liked.

anya-skin-ad.jpg

crystal-evo-x.jpg

50921548826_f38a27b0f7_w.jpg

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