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@Innula Zenovka @Madelaine McMasters  I may have missed seeing these books among the 27 pages of posts in this thread, but I am not about to go slogging back to find out.  If you are looking for more instructive -- even fascinating -- books to add to the stack on your bedside table, try:

Jordan Ellenberg (2014), How Not To Be Wrong: The Power of Mathematical Thinking

Brian Christian & Tom Griffiths (2016), Algorithms To Live By

Michael Heller & James Salzman (2021), Mine! : How the Hidden Rules of Ownership Control Our Lives.

The first two are obviously mathematical, but in a rather gentle, easy-to-follow way. They describe basic approaches to analyzing and interpreting information, using examples from everyday life.  Even if you are already familiar with the math, I think you'll enjoy the way they discuss it in context.  If I were back in the business of shaping college curricula, I would be encouraging faculty to include a lot of these concepts in the core.  The third book is decidedly non-mathematical.  It talks about different ways in which we define ownership, often without thinking critically about what it means.  Most importantly, it explores ways in which well-intentioned people can arrive at radically different conclusions about who owns what, what is fair, and whether ownership is permanent or transitory.   It's the stuff at the heart of law curricula, but it touches on everything from cultural appropriation to mundane things like who does the dishes.  It also says some interesting things about how we get wedded to "sides" in a debate.

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3 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Maths isn't just a tool.   It's a way of describing how the world has to work -- there are rules that reality lays down, and these are what they are.   Fascinating.

I had the great good fortune of being raised by an endlessly curious father and an endlessly patient mother. Each taught the other, both taught me, though I was clearly the thickest skull in the house. I can't recall a time when nature wasn't presented to me with explanations, often mathematical.

I was introduced to the Fibonacci sequence probably a little after I'd gained comfort with addition. If you can add, you can understand the sequence. With that in mind, you can then go hunting in the refrigerator, the yard, or the beach. Nature knows all about the Fibonacci Sequence. The Golden Ratio is related to it. Armed with just the Fibonnaci Sequence, I think you'll very quickly see there might just be a profound connection between math and... beauty.

Though @Moondiramight take issue with my analytical nature (and my appreciation for the work of Daniel Kahenman), it is my... nature. She's also put a book on my reading list "The Master and His Emissary". Coincidentally (and I mean that ;-). the author, lain McGilchrist was a guest on a "Hidden Brain" podcast in my queue yesterday. In the interview Dr. McGilchrist made an argument for the importance of our non-analytical abilities, citing music as an example of an aesthetic comprehension of... beauty.

Hidden Brain is a wonderful show, inspired by the work of... Daniel Kahneman.

Ain't life grand?

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
Who taught me how to write?!
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9 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

[snipped]

We don't try and baby people who refuse to drive sober or without a seat belt.

If seatbelts were just now being invented they would 100% quickly become a partisan political issue. 

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4 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

@Innula Zenovka @Madelaine McMasters  I may have missed seeing these books among the 27 pages of posts in this thread, but I am not about to go slogging back to find out.  If you are looking for more instructive -- even fascinating -- books to add to the stack on your bedside table, try:

Jordan Ellenberg (2014), How Not To Be Wrong: The Power of Mathematical Thinking

Brian Christian & Tom Griffiths (2016), Algorithms To Live By

Michael Heller & James Salzman (2021), Mine! : How the Hidden Rules of Ownership Control Our Lives.

The first two are obviously mathematical, but in a rather gentle, easy-to-follow way. They describe basic approaches to analyzing and interpreting information, using examples from everyday life.  Even if you are already familiar with the math, I think you'll enjoy the way they discuss it in context.  If I were back in the business of shaping college curricula, I would be encouraging faculty to include a lot of these concepts in the core.  The third book is decidedly non-mathematical.  It talks about different ways in which we define ownership, often without thinking critically about what it means.  Most importantly, it explores ways in which well-intentioned people can arrive at radically different conclusions about who owns what, what is fair, and whether ownership is permanent or transitory.   It's the stuff at the heart of law curricula, but it touches on everything from cultural appropriation to mundane things like who does the dishes.  It also says some interesting things about how we get wedded to "sides" in a debate.

While working in the yard yesterday, I listened to this...

https://omny.fm/shows/hidden-brain/why-we-hold-on-to-things

...which might have covered some of the ground in "Mine!"

I'm sensing a conspiracy here, Rolig. The lot of you are trying to bury me in books to keep me out of the forum.

It might work.

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Quote

Superbug: US reports outbreaks of untreatable fungus in two cities
22 Jul, 2021 11:32 AM
NZ Herald.com

US health officials say they now have evidence of an untreatable fungus spreading in two hospitals and a nursing home.

The "superbug" outbreaks were reported in a Washington, DC, nursing home and at two Dallas-area hospitals, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported. A handful of the patients had invasive fungal infections that were impervious to all three major classes of medications.

"This is really the first time we've started seeing clustering of resistance" in which patients seemed to be getting the infections from each other, said the CDC's Dr Meghan Lyman.

The fungus, Candida auris, is a harmful form of yeast that is considered dangerous to hospital and nursing home patients with serious medical problems. It is most deadly when it enters the bloodstream, heart or brain. Outbreaks in health care facilities have been spurred when the fungus spread through patient contact or on contaminated surfaces.

Health officials have sounded alarms for years about the superbug after seeing infections in which commonly used drugs had little effect.
 
In Washington, DC, a cluster of 101 C. auris cases at a nursing home dedicated to very sick patients included three that were resistant to all three kinds of antifungal medications. A cluster of 22 in two Dallas-area hospitals included two with that level of resistance. The facilities weren't identified.

Lyman said both are ongoing outbreaks and that additional infections have been identified since April. But those added numbers were not reported.
Quote

Cases of respiratory virus surge in young children amid rare summer outbreak
CBS Evening News
BY MIREYA VILLARREAL
UPDATED ON: JULY 15, 2021

Parents around the country are being warned about Respiratory Syncytial Virus, or RSV, a disease that infects the lungs and breathing passages and usually occurs in the winter. 

Healthy people typically experience mild, cold-like symptoms, including cough, congestion and fever. But the virus can be serious among infants and the elderly, leading to as many as 14,500 deaths a year. The virus is responsible for more than two million outpatient visits a year for kids under five. 

"This is more RSV so far than we had three or four years ago in a typical winter season, and the numbers here are still climbing," said Dr. Suzanne Whitworth, the medical director of infectious diseases at Cook Children's Medical Center. 

The U.S. is in the midst of an unusual summer surge, especially among southern states.

(from https://www.cbsnews.com/news/respiratory-syncytial-virus-children-rising-symptoms/)

 

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1 hour ago, Rolig Loon said:

@Innula Zenovka @Madelaine McMasters  I may have missed seeing these books among the 27 pages of posts in this thread, but I am not about to go slogging back to find out.  If you are looking for more instructive -- even fascinating -- books to add to the stack on your bedside table, try:

Jordan Ellenberg (2014), How Not To Be Wrong: The Power of Mathematical Thinking

Brian Christian & Tom Griffiths (2016), Algorithms To Live By

Michael Heller & James Salzman (2021), Mine! : How the Hidden Rules of Ownership Control Our Lives.

The first two are obviously mathematical, but in a rather gentle, easy-to-follow way. They describe basic approaches to analyzing and interpreting information, using examples from everyday life.  Even if you are already familiar with the math, I think you'll enjoy the way they discuss it in context.  If I were back in the business of shaping college curricula, I would be encouraging faculty to include a lot of these concepts in the core.  The third book is decidedly non-mathematical.  It talks about different ways in which we define ownership, often without thinking critically about what it means.  Most importantly, it explores ways in which well-intentioned people can arrive at radically different conclusions about who owns what, what is fair, and whether ownership is permanent or transitory.   It's the stuff at the heart of law curricula, but it touches on everything from cultural appropriation to mundane things like who does the dishes.  It also says some interesting things about how we get wedded to "sides" in a debate.

Thank you!  I've read the Ellenberg book but the other two are new to me and will most certainly add them to my reading list.

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6 hours ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

How we as a whole have managed to regress from viewing science as a godsend to fear mongering with misinformation in one generation is truly bizarre.  

Not really bizarre. Just as the Church and State wasn't a good marriage, Science and the State isn't either. Both become infected with politics.

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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Not really bizarre. Just as the Church and State wasn't a good marriage, Science and the State isn't either. Both become infected with politics.

I'm struggling to understand your point here. 

In considering its response to Covid, for example, or the Climate Crisis, or whether to adopt proposed road safety measures or whatever it might be, governments need to base their decisions on sound factual evidence and projections --  these are the likely outcomes associated with plan A, and these with plan B, and this is why we're confident these assessments are better than guesswork.    

Scientists can't decide for President Biden or Boris Johnson or anyone else what they should do, but they can, and should, provide them with reliable guidance about what is likely to follow from particular courses of action their governments may take.

Who else should guide governments as they decide on scientific matters, if not scientists?

 

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3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Not really bizarre. Just as the Church and State wasn't a good marriage, Science and the State isn't either. Both become infected with politics.

I’m doubtful if you understand the paradox in stating “the state becomes infected with politics.”  
Maybe you mean people on the higher end of a hierarchy who wield decision making power that allow themselves to be influenced by entities that have their own self serving motivations are infections on the body politic.  If so, yes I agree- most anyone would.  

I don’t know what you do mean tho.  

Science is internationally shared.  But requires funding to advance.  I don’t know about where you live, but here in Oklahoma, when a rich oil geezer knocks off, he doesn’t bequeath millions to the art, music, English or Science departments of institutions of higher learning (or a myriad of other philanthropic options). No.  He gave $165 million dollars to Oklahoma State Athletics,(the largest bequeath in NCAA history) to which they built a ginormous football stadium & slapped his name up top of it.  

So yes, tax dollars fund science research (let’s not forget Germany led the way with the COVID vaccine).  And likewise with NASA.  But it seems NASA has checked out of the space race.
To which we all know in the past 2 weeks two of the wealthiest men in the history of the world have financed & launched their own space programs (to which NASA will be paying money to to bring supplies to the ISS.)  

So who should it fall upon to fund scientific advances?  
 

 

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13 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There are some good arguments out there for the idea that the new strains are as a direct result of the vaccines themselves.

Are there? Show us!

Meanwhile, here are the locations and dates of the first documented samples of the initial Covid-19 virus and all current variants of concern (all but Lamba obtained from here)...

Initial Covid-19, Dec-2019, China

Variants:

  • Alpha Sep-2020, UK
  • Beta May-2020, South Africa
  • Gamma Nov-2020, Brazil
  • Delta, Oct-2020, India
  • Lambda, Aug-2020, Peru (from here)

The FDA issued its first vaccine Emergency Use Authorization on Dec 11, 2020.

The delta variant ripped though India, causing its second wave, which peaked May 6, 2021.

Cases.thumb.jpg.8867e0f70b8f62be7287902c8552f558.jpg

By May 6, only 2.3% of India's citizens had been fully vaccinated.

Vaccinations.thumb.jpg.da247c7fcd4b98946097f4472ff2aa16.jpg

All five Covid-19 variants of concern were detected before the first vaccines were distributed anywhere and spread widely before the vaccination rates approached significant levels. There have been no new variants of concern, or even variants of interest, since vaccine distribution started in earnest. I do not expect this to last, but there's no evidence to support your theory.

Imagine if I actually did some homework instead of waiting for you to deliver things to me on a platter.

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Oh. I opened this thread to see what others went through and have a light-hearted  chat about vaccination...oh what a naive fool I was to even expect that in here...knowing the forums 🙈 I bet scrolling through the pages would introduce me to every vaccination conspiracy theory that exists on this planet? X3 

I just came here because I was happy, that everyone in our family and friends circle has been having their second shots now, except for the kids, two of ours are too young with almost 10 and merely over a year old (friends have kids too young too), but our oldest daughter got hers too and she's now much more relaxed finally. She was really stressed out, poor thing. Especially having the Olympics here in Tokyo stressed her even more (-_-;) 

All of us got a sore covid arm, some more some less x3 and like 2 people had a little fever for some hours, the rest just did awesome.

I hope you all stay happy & healthy (っ.❛ ᴗ ❛.)っ

 

Edited by Gwin LeShelle
Typos are strong in this one x3
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10 hours ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

I’m doubtful if you understand the paradox in stating “the state becomes infected with politics.”  ....

....So who should it fall upon to fund scientific advances?  

Sorry, I was meaning that the politics of the State, infects Science in the same way it infected the Church historically.

When the State uses the tool of science to push its agenda, the opposing political party is then needing to counter or agree with whatever is considered the mainstream science to gain any headway with the populace to regain power. That is why in response to your statement:

Quote

How we as a whole have managed to regress from viewing science as a godsend to fear mongering with misinformation in one generation is truly bizarre.  

I pointed out that in my opinion the fear mongering with misinformation it is to be expected from the opposing party. Not that the other side would consider it to be that.

Edited by Arielle Popstar
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10 hours ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

I’m doubtful if you understand the paradox in stating “the state becomes infected with politics.”  
Maybe you mean people on the higher end of a hierarchy who wield decision making power that allow themselves to be influenced by entities that have their own self serving motivations are infections on the body politic.  If so, yes I agree- most anyone would.  

I don’t know what you do mean tho.  

Science is internationally shared.  But requires funding to advance.  I don’t know about where you live, but here in Oklahoma, when a rich oil geezer knocks off, he doesn’t bequeath millions to the art, music, English or Science departments of institutions of higher learning (or a myriad of other philanthropic options). No.  He gave $165 million dollars to Oklahoma State Athletics,(the largest bequeath in NCAA history) to which they built a ginormous football stadium & slapped his name up top of it.  

So yes, tax dollars fund science research (let’s not forget Germany led the way with the COVID vaccine).  And likewise with NASA.  But it seems NASA has checked out of the space race.
To which we all know in the past 2 weeks two of the wealthiest men in the history of the world have financed & launched their own space programs (to which NASA will be paying money to to bring supplies to the ISS.)  

So who should it fall upon to fund scientific advances?  
 

 

 

NASA wouldn't be in the fix it's in if the Republicans had not gutted its budget in the 70s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA

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5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I pointed out that in my opinion the fear mongering with misinformation it is to be expected from the opposing party. Not that the other side would consider it to be that.

So basically, what you do.  That explains a lot.

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8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Sorry, I was meaning that the politics of the State, infects Science in the same way it infected the Church historically.

When the State uses the tool of science to push its agenda, the opposing political party is then needing to counter or agree with whatever is considered the mainstream science to gain any headway with the populace to regain power. That is why in response to your statement:

I pointed out that in my opinion the fear mongering with misinformation it is to be expected from the opposing party. Not that the other side would consider it to be that.

That last paragraph explains why you are here fear mongering with misinformation and attempts tp spread disinformation.

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Hey there, @Gwin LeShelle! The Resident Geek and I have both gotten both our shots, with no serious side effects. Unfortunately, two of our three (now adult) children have refused vaccination, and we continue to fear for them. In addition, we are still masking in any indoor public venue. Masks are a pain, but they ARE effective. Just look at the statistics for such an "ordinary" disease as the flu...cases are way down since people began masking.

The idea that vaccines cause the variants is false. I understand the "logic" behind it, though. Proponents of this argument are basing it on the evolution of bacteria in response to antibiotics. But what's much more important with viruses is how many of the tiny critters there are. Every time virus particles infect a cell and commandeer its reproductive machinery to make more virus, there is a chance for mutation. The more cells infected, the more chances for a favorable mutation, and the creation of a new and more effective (from the virus's point of view) variant. Vaccination both lowers the number of infected people and the severity of disease in those who do get infected anyway. This reduces the virus's chances of mutation, AND makes it harder for the virus to spread (less interactions between vulnerable, i.e., unvaccinated people)

97% of COVID-19 hospital admissions are now unvaccinated people. Anyone who continues to ignore THAT number is beyond reasoning with.

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8 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

(Our lockdown ended, many think prematurely, last Monday, July 19, but clearly not everyone received the memo).

That is quite the Twitter feed   :(  I was hoping these crazies were mainly confined to the U.S. border, but I see that's not the case.

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19 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Though @Moondiramight take issue with my analytical nature (and my appreciation for the work of Daniel Kahenman), it is my... nature. She's also put a book on my reading list "The Master and His Emissary". Coincidentally (and I mean that ;-). the author, lain McGilchrist was a guest on a "Hidden Brain" podcast in my queue yesterday. In the interview Dr. McGilchrist made an argument for the importance of our non-analytical abilities, citing music as an example of an aesthetic comprehension of... beauty.

I don't take issue with your analytical nature at all. I'd have to hate myself if I didn't like analytical natures  :)

What I take issue with is applying theories where they don't belong just because we read about said theories.  It's a Psychology student or new Psychologist mistake as they learn about psychological defenses and patterns in humans, including patterns we deem illogical.  We have to know any individual person we're analyzing much better before assuming our theories are correct regarding their specific case.  Just knowing a few patterns and applying them without more in-depth knowledge of the person is disrespectful, as projecting onto others always is.

Also, I like Kahenman's theories about how we can fool ourselves. I just think he values the 'left-brain' too much, and devalues the 'right brain' more than he should.

Edited by Moondira
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1 hour ago, Moondira said:

I don't take issue with your analytical nature at all. I'd have to hate myself if I didn't like analytical natures  :)

What I take issue with is applying theories where they don't belong just because we read about said theories.  It's a Psychology student or new Psychologist mistake as they learn about psychological defenses and patterns in humans, including patterns we deem illogical.  We have to know any individual person we're analyzing much better before assuming our theories are correct regarding their specific case.  Just knowing a few patterns and applying them without more in-depth knowledge of them is disrespectful, as projecting onto others always is.

Also, I like Kahenman's theories about how we can fool ourselves. I just think he values the 'left-brain' too much, and devalues the 'right brain' more than he should.

When people come to the forum to explain the curious experiences they have using pseudo science, particularly when it directly contradicts evidence or misstates science's theories, I'm going to challenge them. I don't discount that they have the experiences, I have them all the time. If you say "it feels like I'm connected to others, and to the universe at large", I'll say "me too!". If you then say it's because of Akashic fields, I'm going to say "nope". If you say that telepathy exists via quantum entanglement, I'm going to say "nope". If you say you've felt a telepathic connection, I'm going to say "me too!" If you tell me that come coincidence is impossible by chance, I'm going to show how your statistics are probably crap. If you say, "that seems impossible", I'm going to agree.

If you say you've reached a higher level of comprehension of reality through meditation, while showing a widespread ignorance of math and the physical world, I'm going to challenge you, and I'll bring evidence to back it up. If you bring me Rupert Sheldrake, I'll shoot him down. If you say that Rupert Sheldrake's pseudo-science makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, I won't discount the feeling. If you bring me studies that show belief improves health, I'll probably help you find more, while wishing I could tap into that benefit and hoping that, somehow I am via a different route.

Meanwhile, you said this to Arielle Popstar...

"It's simply unconscionable that you live in a retirement community to take care of your mother, and you put her and all the other residents in the community in danger via your vaccine paranoia!"

That sounds like a directed diagnosis, Moondira! I probably share the feelings that caused you to generate it, and I'm sure that becomes visible at times.

Here's the Hidden Brain episode with Iian McGilchrist...
https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/one-head-two-brains/

That podcast was my introduction to McGilchrist, so I'm starting my assessment of him right brain first, having heard his voice and his live interaction style. If he stands a chance with me, it'll have to come from my left brain finding something to like. My right brain is wary.

;-).

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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1 hour ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Hey there, @Gwin LeShelle! The Resident Geek and I have both gotten both our shots, with no serious side effects. Unfortunately, two of our three (now adult) children have refused vaccination, and we continue to fear for them. In addition, we are still masking in any indoor public venue. Masks are a pain, but they ARE effective. Just look at the statistics for such an "ordinary" disease as the flu...cases are way down since people began masking.

Yay good to hear.

We are wearing masks too still of course, many other countries seemed to make jokes about us to wear them before the pandemic x3 but in Japan it is common sense for decades already to wear a mask when you feel a little sick or feel there is a cold coming so you protect others from getting it too ( ◜‿◝ )♡ so wearing masks is more normal for us than for other countries maybe. I lived a while for work in Europe...I was ridiculed so often for wearing one back then :(

Too bad that 2 of your babies refused the vaccination, I hope they will be healthy always (。ŏ﹏ŏ)

But denying a vaccination is a only for people in privileged countries, some people tend to forget that we are not alone and it's just better for everyone and that in some other less privileged country someone would be so happy to even get an offer to have a vaccination against it. I read some comments in here from previous pages and feel a little sick to be honest. But I think that's also their right to refuse to take it tho, I personally am so happy to know my in-laws, friends and my hubby and so on are now a little safer. I feel better that way, and if they feel better their way well than they should do it, and I can only wish them to stay healthy and that they keep their loved ones healthy too.

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13 minutes ago, Gwin LeShelle said:

We are wearing masks too still of course, many other countries seemed to make jokes about us to wear them before the pandemic x3 but in Japan it is common sense for decades already to wear a mask when you feel a little sick or feel there is a cold coming so you protect others from getting it too ( ◜‿◝ )♡ so wearing masks is more normal for us than for other countries maybe. I lived a while for work in Europe...I was ridiculed so often for wearing one back then :(

I'm glad you brought this up. Maybe now people will realize that when I posted the same thing (with links to verify) I knew wtf I was talking about and had good reason for posting the information. 

Masks reduce the risks. Full stop.

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On 7/23/2021 at 3:26 PM, Rolig Loon said:

True.  When there's a battle like this between entrenched positions, there are only two good reasons to keep fighting:

1. There's a small chance that someone who hasn't already decided might be persuaded to agree with your side. [So, your side might actually "win" something, by gaining a convert.]

2. By continuing to argue, you don't appear to have admitted defeat.  [So, you don't have to suffer loss of face. You get to keep on feeling morally superior.]

As long as neither side gives up, both sides can claim that the other side has all the idiots.  That, of course, has one major downside, as Mark Twain is reputed to have said: "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

If you look at it rationally, you'd have to admit that there's little to be gained by going on and on and on.  However, as long as the people on both sides are anonymous, as they are in a forum like this, there's no real cost to keeping up the fight.  It's not like a shooting war, in which you might be killed if you stay on the battlefield.  Flame wars on the Internet are "safe".  Even fun, in a twisted way.

You make some good points there, carry on. The hypothetical undecided people might be worth it and if not, then having a little harmless fun and indulging in a sense of superiority can compensate for the time and effort.

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On 7/23/2021 at 4:28 PM, Moondira said:

This thread has gone off the rails.

@Arielle Popstar   It's simply unconscionable that you live in a retirement community to take care of your mother, and you put her and all the other residents in the community in danger via your vaccine paranoia!

I am a product of my mother, not the other way around. She has for years pointed out the the potential dangers of westernized medical establishment and likely only enjoys the health she does today to her focus on nutrition and a natural remedy regimen. Though she hasn't directly said so, I suspect she would not be too happy if I did get vaccinated as she certainly hasn't and doesn't intend to. She has already seen one of her brothers land in the hospital with myocarditis after his shot and a sister who suffered blinding headaches and other strange symptoms for a month after her one and only shot. 

From her chats with other people in the community, it sounds like there is a fair few who also range from the vaccine hesitant to outright anti-covid vax because of those in the community who also had significant adverse events.

What is unconscionable is your thinking that you know what's best for anyone else when you barely know what is best for yourself.

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