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59 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Your post acknowledging the shedding of the vaccine spike protein is already supporting evidence :)

Ps @Madelaine McMastersI find you tend to not pay enough attention to the "weasel" words in some of the studies and statements we have debated over. In this example, his use of "almost certainly" should be seen that in his statement there is a element of doubt about the certainty of the shedding being able to cause disease in others. There are no sure things in science is there, so he does leave open the possibility that he may be proven wrong in that assumption. Perhaps you should too.

Yes, shedding anything from the Covid vaccine is like you shedding your dandruff on someone.  It's not going to give anyone dandruff or anything else.   There is no virus in the vaccine to shed.

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1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I don't know why Warren's tweet was removed, it's fairly non controversial. We know that miniscule quantities of the spike protein are shed in urine and possibly other fluids.

Maybe that would be a better approach to dealing with this fearmongering.

shO1eYc.png

 

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What I would like to see shed are most of the posts in this thread other than those of people sharing their own experience,  reaction or issue  with getting the vaccine.   

While it is true that even scientific results, studies, theories, etc., may not be exactly, completly, 100% for sure,  there is a point where one needs to decide for one's self if the miniscule risk is worth stewing about.

It seems to me, that the Covid vaccines appear to be working very well, and while I know none are guaranteed to be 100% that a vaccinated person would never, ever catch Covid, or that no one at all would have any side effects, that risk in my mind is very small.  I would rather focus on the positive aspects of being vaccinated - that I'm not likely to catch Covid at all, and if by some chance I did, it would most likely be so mild I might not even realize that I had it.   

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1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Too crazy, lazy, or scared to get vaccinated?
and health care staff should don PPE and risk their lives for them?
after a year and a half of this hell?

The whole point of the vaccines was so that we wouldn't get covid-19 or if we did then it wouldn't be very bad.  Thus if all of the health care staff is vaccinated, it shouldn't matter much who they come in contact with.

No different than all those folks running around not vaccinated for measles and end up getting it and spreading it -- but they only spread it to others that are also not vaccinated.

 

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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On 6/24/2021 at 12:55 PM, Chroma Starlight said:

I think they extend the period of interest out of concern that the virus may hang around in the air for a while in an enclosed space that lacks sufficient enough ventilation to remove it.

yes

the person wasn't in the store for one hour.  The one hour is the window that other people who were in the store or vicinity to better time their own presence against, so that they may be better placed to take remedial action for themselves

more here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300341512/covid19-nz-why-the-sydney-traveller-spent-over-an-hour-in-a-pharmacy-barbers-and-supermarket

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43 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

No different than all those folks running around not vaccinated for measles and end up getting it and spreading it -- but they only spread it to others that are also not vaccinated.

You don't get to say that when the pandemic's being spread is if intentionally by an international conspiracy of hard right men in isolated and arguably stolen positions of power. They're trying to rewrite the narrative of the world, but they are utter hacks and they don't get to write history. No more.

Why would anyone continue to ignore "test, quarantine, and contain?" If those precautions were virtuous wise intelligent responsible dutiful things to do with the initial outbreak, now that delta is out, isn't it at least two to four times as good of an idea? Who would still now place their manifestly blind baseless irrational faith into unproven political "experiments" that look very similar to an ancient line of such failed political "experiments."

These mRNA solutions are developed, tested, and distributed far more slowly and unsurely than the virus. The purveyors of such products will never catch up, not without controlling the population, which has been riddled with a fifth column of rogue agents acting out against the collective enlightened best interests . The entire scenario is off the rails as far as medical science is concerned, this is a breakdown of law and order simultaneously occurring all across the world. We wait for the engines of civilization to sputter back to life, but right now, anarchy reigns as far as we can see until they decide to stop this thing using methods we all know certainly work.

Edited by Chroma Starlight
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57 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The whole point of the vaccines was so that we wouldn't get covid-19 or if we did then it wouldn't be very bad.  Thus if all of the health care staff is vaccinated, it shouldn't matter much who they come in contact with.

No different than all those folks running around not vaccinated for measles and end up getting it and spreading it -- but they only spread it to others that are also not vaccinated.

 

Bet you didn't expect that tirade!

My son was vaccinated for the mumps.  He got the mumps.  No one else he was around got the mumps.  Even the older doctor who saw him was surprised he had them.  He hadn't seen a case.  Of course, he still had to stay home from school but because they require the mumps vaccine for school, there was no outbreak.  Even after he had been infectious while at school although they never did find out where he got them.  The health department even called for information.  The vaccine did it's job.  That's why we have them.  That's why they require them.  I see no difference with the Covid vaccine.

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Quote

Quarantine Tips
by Sarah Motherwell, 34 minutes ago
abc.net.au

We've had lots of lovely people write in with their quarantine tips for CT whose best friend is in isolation away from her young family in Victoria.

Quote

Send her little parcels! Even a supermarket delivery works wonders. We got one that had play dough, stickers, bubbles, colouring books for our 2 year old, plus snacks and wine for us. So appreciated. Also organise to watch a movie or TV show at the same time with them regularly - having something to look forward to is lovely. And keep letting them know you're thinking of them! You can feel a bit forgotten in quarantine.

Quote

1000 piece puzzles, online yoga/pilates classes, binge on a TV series, origami, get a bit of a routine if you can

Quote

pot.
low heat.
1/3 cup sugar.
brown it.
pour milk.
1 stick of cinnamon.
simmer.
mug.
enjoy!

Quote

- Dont feel like you must Zoom/Face time 24/7 - you'll burn out on screen time very soon, especially as main entertainment will be TV/Movies/Kindle
- Move. Dont stay in bed all day, even if just on the spot exercise - it will keep you feeling good. Lots of routines on youtube to watch.
- Indulge in facemask, long bath, hair mask, hand massage - anything that makes your body feel relaxed.
- Find simple pleasures like chocolate, wine, popcorn in front of a movie, your favourite meal - just dont over do it or you will feel like a blob.
- Games, anything not on a screen, crossword, puzzles etc.
- Make lists - all those things you have been meaning to do.
- Sleep in - when else can you do this guilt free, especially with a family
- Have friends send you care packages!
- Stay positive - this is temporary - better to iso than have or pass on Covid.

Quote

Dear CT, Danielle provides sage advice last year for lockdown, "Applying moisturiser and screaming into the void."

(from https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-25/shell-covid-blog-june-25-nsw-bondi-vic-qld/100242886)

f3ea95db-2864-4b03-be9a-fcdb75e0f8b4.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

How about vaccine passports
for hospital admissions?

Too crazy, lazy, or scared to get vaccinated?
and health care staff should don PPE and risk their lives for them?
after a year and a half of this hell?

Yeah, they can make up their own minds, weigh the pros and cons, wait for the right time
but now that it's a willful act not to be vaccinated, should they bear the costs of their decisions?

Should they let everyone else get medical attention again, all those postponed treatments first?
Should the unvaccinated step to the back of the line?

(Medicine can't do this of course, gotta save the most lives possible, something in the Hippocratic Fine Print. And it's probably right, but it sure seems to create a moral hazard.)

They can easily staff it then with medical personnel who do not want the vaccines either. There are certainly enough of those out there and some very good ones at that. Ones who don't just blindly follow the dictates of the national health agencies and do what is best for the patient rather than what is best for the pharmaceutical companies.

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48 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

They can easily staff it then with medical personnel who do not want the vaccines either. There are certainly enough of those out there and some very good ones at that. Ones who don't just blindly follow the dictates of the national health agencies and do what is best for the patient rather than what is best for the pharmaceutical companies.

this is not true, there aren't enough people to staff a general hospital with people who don't want to get vaccinated

the recent Houston hospital legal case involved 153 people who refused to get vaccinated. This from a hospital staff of 26,000

is the same in NZ. A hospital of 435 staff had only 1 person refuse to get vaccinated. And this person wasn't a health professional, they were a security guard

non-vaxxer activists can get pretty noisy sometimes but in the health professions their numbers are infinitesimally tiny

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A&E units in UK report rapid rise in children’s infections
Denis Campbell Health policy editor
Fri 25 Jun 2021 01.00 EDT

A&E units are treating a sudden surge in young children suffering from infections usually only seen in winter after the rules on social contact were relaxed, doctors have revealed.

“On Monday, we set a new record for the number of children seen in 24 hours in our department, and that’s in the middle of summer,” said Dr Dan Magnus, a consultant in children’s emergency medicine at Bristol Royal hospital. “We are effectively running a winter-level emergency department response in the summertime.”

Dr Richard Burridge, a consultant paediatrician and lead for the children’s A&E, said: “We’re seeing three times the number of children with fevers for early June than in 2020, which was lower because of Covid, and twice the number of children we saw in June 2019, significantly higher than we’ve seen before in children’s [emergency department].”

“These infections, which are usually mild, are mostly seen in the winter months. But the easing of lockdown has meant that children are being exposed to them this summer as they come back into contact with other children,” said the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.

“Many emergency departments are overwhelmed and there has been a particularly steep rise in the number of young children presenting. Some have seen the highest-ever numbers of children in their department and waiting times can be huge,” she said.

(from https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/25/ae-units-in-uk-report-rapid-rise-in-childrens-infections )

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSG8-eqPjZI4hdMsfRqiCI

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4 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

They can easily staff it then with medical personnel who do not want the vaccines either. There are certainly enough of those out there and some very good ones at that. Ones who don't just blindly follow the dictates of the national health agencies and do what is best for the patient rather than what is best for the pharmaceutical companies.

That would be fitting. Let the rag-tag left-behind loonies of medicine be the only ones allowed to treat the unvaccinated-by-choice. Perfect justice. Wholesale carnage, but perfect justice.

Living in a land (most of the world) where vaccine demand still vastly outstrips supply, it's hard to work up much sympathy anymore for those who get sick from a disease now preventable by a simple step they've chosen not to take.

And the fact is, effectively everybody hospitalized for COVID is unvaccinated, and for new admissions in the US they're practically all unvaccinated by choice.*

@LittleMe Jewell's point is well-taken, though: The days are pretty much past where vaccinated medical personnel are really risking their own lives to treat COVID patients. Of course that could change if a vaccine-resistant variant emerges, and there's always a tiny percentage of risk, but yeah: truly tiny in the case of these miraculously effective vaccines.

There's still a moral hazard, though, as long as resources are finite. If we expend any effort at all to save the lives of the willfully unvaccinated, those resources could have been deployed instead to perform other useful medical procedures, including for less life-threatening conditions. The moral hazard is in disguising the costs, so some will choose not to be vaccinated because, worst case, they'll still get treatment, shifting that cost to some increment of suffering by others, suffering that could have been treated instead.

_________________
*There are always exceptions for extreme outliers like those so immunocompromised that no vaccine can ever work, and maybe one per billion allergic to something different in every vaccine.

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10 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

There's still a moral hazard, though, as long as resources are finite. If we expend any effort at all to save the lives of the willfully unvaccinated, those resources could have been deployed instead to perform other useful medical procedures, including for less life-threatening conditions. The moral hazard is in disguising the costs, so some will choose not to be vaccinated because, worst case, they'll still get treatment, shifting that cost to some increment of suffering by others, suffering that could have been treated instead.

This is really the biggest problem that I see with those that won't get vaccinated.  In many areas, the Delta variant is really taking hold of those that are not vaccinated yet.  Those surges are filling intensive care units, like in the early days of the pandemic.  Even if that is confined to smaller areas of the nation, it is still problematic for the hospitals and their workers.  The Hippocratic Oath pretty much dictates that every attempt will be made to save the infected, even if they brought it on themselves.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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35 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:
11 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

There's still a moral hazard, though, as long as resources are finite. If we expend any effort at all to save the lives of the willfully unvaccinated, those resources could have been deployed instead to perform other useful medical procedures, including for less life-threatening conditions. The moral hazard is in disguising the costs, so some will choose not to be vaccinated because, worst case, they'll still get treatment, shifting that cost to some increment of suffering by others, suffering that could have been treated instead.

This is really the biggest problem that I see with those that won't get vaccinated.  In many areas, the Delta variant is really taking hold of those that are not vaccinated yet.  Those surges are filling intensive care units, like in the early days of the pandemic.  Even if that is confined to smaller areas of the nation, it is still problematic for the hospitals and their workers.  The Hippocratic Oath pretty much dictates that every attempt will be made to save the infected, even if they brought it on themselves.

My cousin recently retired early from her career as a nurse-practitioner (she got her PhD just a few years ago) citing the selfish stupidity of Covid-19 patients as the prime motivator. She's a fairly crabby person and prone to ranting, but it still shocked me to hear her say that she's no longer sure that every life coming through the hospital door is worth saving.

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40 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 even if they brought it on themselves.

Well lets see, should we trust the ones who were researching viral gain of function  with giving us the cure for what the result was? Appropriate perhaps if they could be trusted but seriously it begs the question as to who brought it on who.

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16 hours ago, Mollymews said:

this is not true, there aren't enough people to staff a general hospital with people who don't want to get vaccinated

the recent Houston hospital legal case involved 153 people who refused to get vaccinated. This from a hospital staff of 26,000

is the same in NZ. A hospital of 435 staff had only 1 person refuse to get vaccinated. And this person wasn't a health professional, they were a security guard

non-vaxxer activists can get pretty noisy sometimes but in the health professions their numbers are infinitesimally tiny

And yet I have seen recent articles by major media outlets that there is a significant percentage of health care workers with reservations to the vaccines:

"Many hospital workers remain unvaccinated despite the fact they were first in line to be eligible for COVID-19 vaccinations. In a recent survey, some hospitals reported that only half their staff, which includes doctors and nurses along with support workers, are fully vaccinated."

“I think it’ll be a bit of a struggle to get to that 70% to 75% vaccination rate,” said Stacey Gabriel, chief executive officer of Hocking Valley Community Hospital in Ohio, an 80-bed facility where only 50% of the staff have been vaccinated.

“I’ve seen everything from blood clots, heart attacks, heart arrhythmias,” nurse Jennifer Bridges told USA Today.  “We’ve had people who were perfectly healthy and the day after they took the vaccine, they literally woke up and they couldn’t move or feel their legs.”

A Kaiser Family Foundation survey last December found that 29% of healthcare workers were hesitant about getting vaccinated compared to 27% of people in the general sector. 

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So it would appear that a larger percentage of health care workers are hesitant then there is in the general population. The only way to get them to take the vaccine is to threaten their jobs if they don't comply. https://www.newsmax.com/health/health-news/covid-19-vaccine-hospital-workers-herd-immunity/2021/06/03/id/1023825/

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43 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

My cousin recently retired early from her career as a nurse-practitioner (she got her PhD just a few years ago) citing the selfish stupidity of Covid-19 patients as the prime motivator. She's a fairly crabby person and prone to ranting, but it still shocked me to hear her say that she's no longer sure that every life coming through the hospital door is worth saving.

Can't help those who wont help themselves.

38 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well lets see, should we trust the ones who were researching viral gain of function  ...

Unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.

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Would hate to be an immunocompromised person who is unable to get the vaccine having to go to the hospital for an unrelated reason and then get Covid from a nurse of all people who refused to get vaccinated. 

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34 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

And yet I have seen recent articles by major media outlets that there is a significant percentage of health care workers with reservations to the vaccines:

"Many hospital workers remain unvaccinated despite the fact they were first in line to be eligible for COVID-19 vaccinations. In a recent survey, some hospitals reported that only half their staff, which includes doctors and nurses along with support workers, are fully vaccinated."

“I think it’ll be a bit of a struggle to get to that 70% to 75% vaccination rate,” said Stacey Gabriel, chief executive officer of Hocking Valley Community Hospital in Ohio, an 80-bed facility where only 50% of the staff have been vaccinated.

“I’ve seen everything from blood clots, heart attacks, heart arrhythmias,” nurse Jennifer Bridges told USA Today.  “We’ve had people who were perfectly healthy and the day after they took the vaccine, they literally woke up and they couldn’t move or feel their legs.”

A Kaiser Family Foundation survey last December found that 29% of healthcare workers were hesitant about getting vaccinated compared to 27% of people in the general sector. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So it would appear that a larger percentage of health care workers are hesitant then there is in the general population. The only way to get them to take the vaccine is to threaten their jobs if they don't comply. https://www.newsmax.com/health/health-news/covid-19-vaccine-hospital-workers-herd-immunity/2021/06/03/id/1023825/

They do include support staff in those numbers which include people without an advanced education.  Certified nurse assistants, janitors, food service workers.  I don't mean to imply they aren't educated at all but less educated about the facts on the vaccine.  From what I've read, doctors and registered nurses are more willing to look into the actual facts and get the shot.

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I don't trust Pfizer with my well-being. Knowing the companies history is marred with things like what happened in Nigeria in 1996. As I understand it the Pfizer vaccine is not a traditional vaccine either. AstraZeneca I have a bit more faith in being a more traditional kind of vaccine as I understand, but the company is not without incidents that raise the eyebrow either.

There are plenty of people who justifiably should hurry to get vaccinated. The old, the vulnerable, the obese who for them the risk that the vaccine might have some medium-long term side effect is worth taking.

For everyone else, who falls into the least vulnerable category. Despite all the usual virtue signalers telling you you're an awful person it is still worth holding out and see how everyone else turns out. At the end of the day, these companies earn money from sticking substances in your arm and how much responsibility will they be required to take should it just so happen to cause harm? Last I checked the news the answer is none.

Unless I'll get a written guarantee from the company that should I sustain harm that prevents me from working should I get the vaccine that the company/government will be on the hook to pay for my mortgage/living expenses, then I don't think I'll take that risk  and wait and see how others are doing. The NHS does not even let you choose which of the vaccines will be given to you here afaik.

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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

And yet I have seen recent articles by major media outlets that there is a significant percentage of health care workers with reservations to the vaccines

yes we can cherry pick this hospital vs this hospital, this study vs this other study to best suit our point

here is another study: https://www.modernhealthcare.com/labor/why-are-some-healthcare-workers-refusing-covid-vaccines

why are health professionals hesitant ?  The major concern of every health professional including those who have been vaccinated, is that the vaccines have not been tested as rigorously as a vaccine would be under any other circumstance. This is a principle concern and is valid

however, even tho the testing has not been rigorous, about 80% of health professionals in the USA have been vaccinated already and now the general hospital adminstrations are moving vigorously to get their remaining staff vaccinated. If people choose not too then they are being let go

why is that ? why are the hospital adminstrations letting these people go ?

is because if they don't then significant numbers of patients are not going to avail themselves of treatment in the non-vaccinated staffed hospitals. They are either going to go to another hospital, and when they can't then they are not going to hospital at all

from a hospital's admissions pov then a reduction in patients is going to result in staff layoffs. Somebody is going to get laid off. And from a hospital administrator's pov the question is: Who has the best interests of the hospitals mission at heart ? This staff member or this one ?  The staff members who have the least interest in the hospital's mission get laid off. Same as in any other mission-directed organisation

either way they get laid off. Now today before the hospital loses patients. Or tomorrow after the hospital has lost patients. And from the mission pov then its lay off before, those who put themselves before the mission. In the health sector the patients and the mission always come first before the staff

the number that is uppermost in the minds of the people in the health mission in the USA is 600,000 and counting. And when people are mission-focused as most health professionals (about 97%) are then they choose to set aside their hesitancy and concerns and get vaccinated in this circumstance. Health professionals generally have this large empath component in their makeup. The empathy for their patients, to ease their patients burden, is what gets them up in the morning      

 

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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well lets see, should we trust the ones who were researching viral gain of function  with giving us the cure for what the result was? Appropriate perhaps if they could be trusted but seriously it begs the question as to who brought it on who.

The two would be carried out by different groups of people according to individual expertise; the mechanisms of a virus and developing a vaccine are two different things. 

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6 minutes ago, Flook Somerset said:

The two would be carried out by different groups of people according to individual expertise; the mechanisms of a virus and developing a vaccine are two different things. 

Fauci seems to have had a lot of input on both.

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