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Why Did It Take So Long to Accept the Facts About Covid?


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Posted (edited)
On 5/18/2021 at 10:27 AM, Arielle Popstar said:

If as you claim the virus jumped from a different species, then isn't it appropriate for a pig dewormer medication would be the solution? Seems rather apropos.

Apropo if you can't distinguish between worms and viruses.

Note that Ivermectin has been used to kill parasites in humans for decades. That's one less level of indirection than your example.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Though Luna's rationale for contact tracing and isolation is quite correct, I do take your point that the some cultures potentially make this a pie in the sky goal. I think that argues for working to change the culture, too.

Add to that the change from droplet to airborne transmission, it complicates it even more as one could have caught or transmitted the virus when not even in the same room at the same time.

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Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Ivermectin does not appear to make a distinction so yes, apropos.

Appearances can be deceiving. Several Indian states are now offering free five day courses of Ivermectin to everyone. Let's hope that produces credible evidence, one way or the other. If not, there are continuing clinical trials.

Ivermectin didn't make the statement, you did. Repurposing a drug is easy and fast, one can understand why it's done. Getting good data is difficult and time consuming. Covid-19 is shedding a lot of light on that balancing act.

Your statement was also superfluous, as Ivermectin has been used in humans for decades and has been the subject of ongoing research since its discovery, including use as an anti-viral. We've a very long history of jumping species in medical research, usually going in the other direction.

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On 5/11/2021 at 8:25 PM, Arielle Popstar said:

 

At 1:20, Dr. Bailey claims that germ theory is hyped up and lays blame at the feet of Louis Pasteur for misdirecting a century of science.

She says:
"It wasn't until 1995 that much of his research was exposed as fraudulent. We quote medical historian Gerald Geison as saying 'The conclusion is unavoidable: Pasteur deliberately deceived the public, including especially those scientists most familiar with his published work.' Unfortunately, the damage was done and generations of medical professionals have been trained with a skewed understanding of the role of microbes."

Though Geisel (quoted in purple above) found Pasteur to have stolen ideas and taken potentially unethical risks with a patient, he ultimately took no issue with Pasteur's ultimate body of work. Here's Geison, from a lecture he gave at the American Association for the Advancement of Science prior to publishing the book from which Bailey quotes...

"He (Pasteur) fully deserves his reputation as one of the greatest scientists who ever lived. He was by no means always humble, selfless, ethically superior . . . Quite the opposite."

https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691633978/the-private-science-of-louis-pasteur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_L._Geison
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/wellness/1993/02/23/louis-pasteur-and-questions-of-fraud/196b2287-f63f-4bac-874e-c33b122d6f61/

Not content with just that mischaracterization, Dr. Bailey doubles down. At 2:06, she introduces Dr. Stefan Lanka, a virologist who denies measles (and viruses in general) exist. In 2011, Lanka claimed that measles are psychosomatic exacerbations of otherwise benign skin conditions and offered $100,000 to anyone who showed a research paper proving the measles virus actually exists. A physician in training, David Bardens, produced six papers offering the requested proof. One of them, written in 1954 by Nobel laureate John Enders is quoted by Dr. Bailey as refutation rather than proof, though the caveat offered by Enders about his own findings is hardly damaging to his thesis, which has been roundly supported by continued research since then.

When Lanka refused to pay, Bardens took him to court and was initially victorious. The case was eventually dismissed when a higher German court ruled that Lanka's "bet" was actually an award, and that he was the only person who could determine if the criteria had been met . One of the judges in the case opined that, had Bardens provided 600 papers proving the existence of the measles virus, Lanka would still be allowed to deny payment.

Dr. Bailey quotes Lanka in the video as saying...

"It is now part of German jurisdiction that the publication of the central method of virology from June 1, 1954 in which the unintentional and unnoticed killing of cells in the laboratory was published as proof of the existence of disease-causing viruses no longer constitutes proof of the existence of a virus from the year 2016".

That's not true. The courts simply said that Lanka can make up any payout rules he likes, and he did.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/13/measles-sceptic-must-pay-doctor-100000
https://www.deutsche-apotheker-zeitung.de/news/artikel/2017/01/20/bundesgerichtshof-haelt-sich-aus-masernstreit-heraus/

The German language link above can be translated by pasting the URL into Google Translate.

Bailey then points us to Lanka's Project Immanuel website where Lanka explains that, because genetic sequences are scanned from fragments of DNA/RNA and sometimes contain gaps, they don't prove the existence of viruses. By that reasoning, humans are also in doubt... https://www.statnews.com/2017/06/20/human-genome-not-fully-sequenced/

In his refutation of viruses, Dr. Lanka claims nobody's ever isolated, completely sequenced, and imaged one.

Here's a complete sequencing of Covid-19 isolated from a Nepalese student at Wuhan University of Technology:
https://mra.asm.org/content/9/11/e00169-20

Here's a picture of Covid-19:
https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-events/novel-coronavirus-sarscov2-images

Anti-vaxxers, including Dr. Bailey, have expressed incredulity that vaccines are designed to target pathogens identified by snippets of genetic information who's function isn't understood. We don't need to know what the identifying snippets do, only that they are reliable identifiers of the pathogen. It is important to locate and understand the mechanism by which viruses gain access to human cells. This knowledge can guide therapies to reduce infection rate and symptoms. It's also important to identify and understand which portion of a virus might be used to inform the immune system's response via vaccination. That's the routine work of immunology.

If you don't believe in infectious diseases, you're faced with prospect that we're being infected with beliefs. I'm pretty sure that actually happens, but isn't a good argument for the absence of viruses.

At 5:30, Bailey begins her attack on big pharma (which I'm happy to join at times) by misrepresenting the evidence once again. She claims that drugs are the third leading cause of death in the US and Europe. I have some knowledge here, as I spent several years researching and consulting on medical error reduction in both hospital and home settings. We've all heard horror stories of someone misplacing a decimal in the administration of an IV, taking the wrong medication, taking medications in deadly combinations with other drugs or foods (you might be surprised by how many medications collide with grapefruit juice), or forgetting to take their medications. Medical errors really are the third largest cause of death.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_suggests_medical_errors_now_third_leading_cause_of_death_in_the_us

If you think medicines are bad, pilots are responsible for 80% of all plane crashes.
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_2_07/article_03_2.html

Dr. Bailey batted zero-for-three in the first six minutes of her video. Thank you for bringing her to my attention, Arielle. She's a lovely reminder that we should not judge a book by its cover, particularly when the book is hawking her own book, "Virus Mania". I'm fascinated by her facial expression every time she mentions it.

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7 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

   Yes she originally posted it on a Strong Conspiracy and Moderate Pseudoscience website that also promotes Russian propaganda. Ref

That is I suppose better than a site rated as "a Tin Foil Hat Conspiracy and Strong Pseudoscience website based on the promotion of unproven information such as the dangers of Vaccines and 9-11 as a false flag operation". Ref

She seems to have a lot of articles on Globalresearch and doesn't seem bothered they are reposting them, whether she profits from them being there or not she could have them removed if she wanted.

Whichever way you look at it her credibility is somewhere around zero.

Just to add Ariele, before you do... she does address Media Bias .. 

Quote

But Media Bias/Fact Check has long been launching bogus attacks. And in addition, the Media Bias/Fact Check website says it has “chosen the IFCN [International Fact Checking Network] as our standard fact-checkers because they all abide by the same rules. This is important, as the standards are high.”

Note, however, that IFCN is funded by the likes of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (see below).

and she concludes:

Quote

Health Feedback’s masters the WHO, and in turn WHO’s financial backers Bill Gates and Big Pharma, wouldn’t be too happy with these facts, would they?

She is arguing a global conspiracy orchestrated by Bill Gates, Big Pharma and the WHO, that is truly extraordinary in scope. She doesn't answer why their are increased death rates.. the full hospitals of sick people with similar symptoms. All a part of the conspiracy I guess???

Honestly this is just bat***** crazy... not really any point in talking sources all she deserves is a repost of the tin foil hat song.  

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Appearances can be deceiving. Several Indian states are now offering free five day courses of Ivermectin to everyone. Let's hope that produces credible evidence, one way or the other. If not, there are continuing clinical trials.

Ivermectin didn't make the statement, you did. Repurposing a drug is easy and fast, one can understand why it's done. Getting good data is difficult and time consuming. Covid-19 is shedding a lot of light on that balancing act.

Your statement was also superfluous, as Ivermectin has been used in humans for decades and has been the subject of ongoing research since its discovery, including use as an anti-viral. We've a very long history of jumping species in medical research, usually going in the other direction.

India initially rolled out Ivermectin treatments in September last year and it did show a decline in cases when many other countries were starting to increase for the winter. Here was the graph I posted previously showing that:

image-181.png.d61a207371fd10f206c4fe32f8

The question is why did it start going back up. From what I was reading in various articles, it seemed the supply of ivermectin ran out or wound up in the hands of black market profiteers who were charging exorbitant prices for it and other therapies.

Quote

Ivermectin didn't make the statement, you did. Repurposing a drug is easy and fast, one can understand why it's done. Getting good data is difficult and time consuming. Covid-19 is shedding a lot of light on that balancing act.

There has been plenty of study data which I have already shown in past and provided links to. The only balancing act is the one where people are using politics to dictate whether it is relevant.

 

Edited by Arielle Popstar
grammar, spelling
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1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Dr. Bailey batted zero-for-three in the first six minutes of her video. Thank you for bringing her to my attention, Arielle. She's a lovely reminder that we should not judge a book by its cover, particularly when the book is hawking her own book, "Virus Mania". I'm fascinated by her facial expression every time she mentions it.

I'd say it's more a matter of interpretation on 2 of the points but I do agree with you on the Lanka's Project Immanuel affair as I thought her defense of it was weak but that does not discount her other points in the latter half of the video. And yes, I get a kick out of her expressions too in general, not just on the virus mania book.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

She is arguing a global conspiracy orchestrated by Bill Gates, Big Pharma and the WHO, that is truly extraordinary in scope. She doesn't answer why their are increased death rates.. the full hospitals of sick people with similar symptoms. All a part of the conspiracy I guess???

Well when the debates surrounded Big Tobacco or Big Oil, certain groups had no qualms about blaming a global conspiracy but now when it is Big Pharma it is all too much to believe?

Edited by Arielle Popstar
punctuation
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Um... I was actually joking. Hydroxychloroquine has some serious side effects in both small and large doses. For example my mother was on it for 1 week on a small dosage and it damaged her retina. You can also suffer serious heart problems with it as well. Additionally, hydroxychloroquine is incompatible (will cause complications) with many common drugs other people (high risk for covid) are on especially the elderly. These include, diabetes drugs, asthma drugs, high blood pressure drugs, some vitamins and even such things like simple grapefruit juice.

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Actually your whole testing tracing focus is not rational unless there is a therapy. Of what use is it to do all this testing and then simply tell someone 2 days later they have covid and need to isolate. Huge waste of manpower. If on the other hand there is a prescription or therapy one could start on after a positive diagnosis then ok but otherwise, it is just a waste of time and will not result in any lives saved.

Contact tracing does not work like that. Contact tracing is where an infected person is identified and then where they visit (shops etc) are noted and then other people that visited those places are tested and then isolated until they get a negative result. It is what happens in Australia and New Zealand and we manage to stop outbreaks from the community within 1 week with usually only 10 or so (if that) people being infected and no deaths due to not having overcrowding of ICU.

As far as closing borders goes, why couldn't the whole world have done this and starved the virus out? The only places that have not seen major outbreaks are those that closed borders, initiated contact tracing and quarantined. 

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

You are forgetting the peaceful BML protests and the election gatherings. They would have made contact tracing impossible with the random people one would be running into. Sorry, but pie in the sky.

Then your government should have banned them. They tried to have BLM protests here in Australia during the early pandemic months and the supreme court made them illegal temporarily during the pandemic for the greater good. Some liberties need to be sacrificed for the greater good when such events occur like a pandemic. Some countries were happy to comply with these sacrifices some like America were not.

Edited by Drayke Newall
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Posted (edited)

Effect of co-infection with parasites on severity of COVID-19

Conclusion Our results suggest that co-infection with parasitic co-infection appears to be associated with reduced COVID-19 severity. The results suggest that parasite-driven immunomodulatory responses may mute hyperinflammation associated with severe COVID-19.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.02.21250995v1

So if worms are good, killing them with Ivermectin is bad?

But then, https://www.timeshighereducation.com/hub/federation-university/p/intestinal-worms-may-affect-severity-coronavirus

 

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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2 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Effect of co-infection with parasites on severity of COVID-19

Conclusion Our results suggest that co-infection with parasitic co-infection appears to be associated with reduced COVID-19 severity. The results suggest that parasite-driven immunomodulatory responses may mute hyperinflammation associated with severe COVID-19.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.02.21250995v1

So if worms are good, killing them with Ivermectin is bad?

 

Or give Covid patients worms, skipping Ivermectin altogether!  

Severe COVID-19 was significantly higher in patients without parasites [47/248 (19.0%, CI: 14.52-24.35)] than in those with parasites [21/267 (7.9%, CI: 5.17-11.79)]; p<0.0001. 

 

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13 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Actually your whole testing tracing focus is not rational unless there is a therapy. Of what use is it to do all this testing and then simply tell someone 2 days later they have covid and need to isolate. Huge waste of manpower. I

First: What you call "testing tracing" is contact tracing, and it helps to lower the spread by telling people they must self-isolate for 10(?) days because they have been in contact with someone who has covid-19. That isn't a waste of manpower.

Second: Testing is done in 30 minutes now, not 2 days. So getting a positive result in 30 minutes, and starting to self-isolate, helps to reduce the spread, moving us all towards getting out of this thing. That's not a waste of manpower either. Heck I can test myself at home in 30 minutes!

All of those things are currently helping to successfully bring the number of infected people down quite drastically. Not doing those things would help to keep the spread of covid-9 up.

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11 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

First: What you call "testing tracing" is contact tracing, and it helps to lower the spread by telling people they must self-isolate for 10(?) days because they have been in contact with someone who has covid-19. That isn't a waste of manpower.

Second: Testing is done in 30 minutes now, not 2 days. So getting a positive result in 30 minutes, and starting to self-isolate, helps to reduce the spread, moving us all towards getting out of this thing. That's not a waste of manpower either. Heck I can test myself at home in 30 minutes!

All of those things are currently helping to successfully bring the number of infected people down quite drastically. Not doing those things would help to keep the spread of covid-9 up.

Those 30 min tests are NOT accurate and should never be allowed use. 

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3 minutes ago, Chris Nova said:

Those 30 min tests are NOT accurate and should never be allowed use. 

Even so, testing is helping to reduce the number of cases, and is contact tracing.

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3 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Even so, testing is helping to reduce the number of cases, and is contact tracing.

Accurate testing is helping. Inaccurate testing is not helpful and causes wrong numbers and can actually increase the actual numbers of infected as someone who uses the 30 min test and is negative (but actually positive) can spread it to others when out in public. Its happened. 

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Posted (edited)

Sorry. I hadn't realised that I was entering the realm of fantasies. I thought this was a serious discussion. I should have known better seeing who was in the thread. I'll stay out now.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Even so, testing is helping to reduce the number of cases, and is contact tracing.

I don't know how well contact tracing is working as there is no one watching anyone who is advised they have been exposed to COVID.  It's a do-it-yourself kind of self-isolation and people are not abiding by it all that much.  I know first hand.  I was told I was exposed to someone with COVID; however, Los Angeles County was in serious lockdown and I hadn't been anywhere but the back garden for walks and always stayed far, far away from others who might have been in the garden.  I wear long sleeves and open doors and push the elevator button with my sleeve and have been pushing the elevator button with my sleeve for over a year now plus I had a mask.  I was never told who or where I might have been "exposed" to someone with COVID.  I think during that time I was going to the store about every three weeks and that's it.  I have no rl bf at this time so no hugging/kissing and I haven't seen my family since lockdown so no hugging there.  If people are supposed to do a do-it-yourself type isolation, they aren't.  It's bogus to believe this a marvelous life-saving thing.   Closing borders to "leisure" travel and non-essential travel should be in place for at least a year going forward.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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Posted (edited)

Then again, people are self-isolating when told to by the contact tracing app. So it is definitely helping to lower the spread of covid-19.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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5 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

Then again, people are self-isolating when told to by the contact tracing app. So it is definitely helping to lower the spread of covid-19.

If you believe so, we agree to disagree.  People would have to stay home from their job and this is not a good thing.  Closing borders to leisure and non-essential travel would be much better as people and families and businesses surviving and jobs should come first.  

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Posted (edited)

I believe so because I've seen it. It happens - trust me.

Seeing one or two people not follow the rules doesn't mean that people in general don't follow the rules. On the other hand, seeing one or two people follow the rules, doesn't mean that people in general follow the rules.

I've seen the rules being followed so I believe that, on the whole, people do follow the rules. But even if many don't, contact tracing does help to bring the spread down because there are many who do.

I do know that there are self-centered dickheads who do what the hell they want, regardless of rules, so I couldn't suggest that the rules are followed throughout. But I believe that most people follow the rules.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

First: What you call "testing tracing" is contact tracing, and it helps to lower the spread by telling people they must self-isolate for 10(?) days because they have been in contact with someone who has covid-19. That isn't a waste of manpower.

When I as an essential worker go out for the day, I bring my mask, hand cleanser as well as socially distance from others to protect myself from catching the virus from infected people I might run into. That is the whole point of the PPE and social distancing. I go with the assumption I will be running into someone with Covid. If you as a contact tracer would be phoning me to inform me that someone I had contact with during the day has/had covid, my response would be oh, ok and I would carry on as that is why I practice the defensive measures suggested by the health agencies and government.

By what you are saying here, every front line and essential worker would be pretty much in isolation all the time if based solely on being within the vicinity of an infected one. We would as a nation grind to a halt pretty quickly. I'd be curious what the actual data shows for how many who were contacted by a contact tracer, actually wound up with Covid from the specific interaction they were called about.

 

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You didn't understand what I said, but I thought it was very clear. I said that contact tracing helps to bring the spread of the virus down. I didn't say anything more than that concerning contact tracing.

But since you bring it up, yes, if contact tracing advises you that you have been in contact with someone who has the virus, then YES, you should self-isolate for the prescribed duration. It's not about you. It's about protecting others. You can pick up the virus, and spread it, even though you wear a mask all the time. If, having been informed that you should self-isolate, you choose not to, then YOU are helping to keep this thing going. With a bit of luck, you won't have actually picked the virus up, but you might have.

Being an 'essential worker' doesn't make any difference unless your government says you are exempt from self-isolating because of it. The phrase 'essential worker' covers a lot of jobs, such as shop staff, so it doesn't carry any weight in this bit of the discussion.

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