Please fix the market place

[Love Zhaoying]

What if - LL hired IT search experts to fix the search issues? It is a standard IT problem these days, with standard IT solutions. Our technical suggestions mean bupkis.

 

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, LibGwen said:

LL tries to limit keyword spam by limiting how many characters we are allowed in the keyword field.  In general it's a good solution.

I see two problems with the proposed alternative right off.  If I want to see what pinky purple asteracea suitable for putting both outdoors and indoors are available on Marketplace,

1) People disagree on what's purple and what's pink, and where fuchsia, magenta, and red fit in.  Checkboxes will work badly for that.  This is an example of the inventory problem of people confusing where they think things should go with actually *finding* them again to use them.

The colour thing would only be for standardised colours groups so that it allows for easy searching. For instance, using your example of the Daisy it would allow further filters so that a person can go to Home and Garden > flowers > Pink, whereby all pink variations are listed. Maybe its just me but I have never come across a person that disagrees what's purple and what's pink unless they have colour-blindness.

If I searched for a pink flower and a purple one came up I would think that to be keyword spamming.

1 hour ago, LibGwen said:

2) I had to choose "asteracea" for this example because the flower I'm thinking of could be a chamomile, a daisy, a chicory, a marigold....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteraceae#/media/File:Asteracea_poster_3.jpg  That's just not practical for checkboxes.  Not that the current system is better.  After I've optimistically tried more specific terms, I have to go to the "Home and Garden" category and wade through 800 pages of "purple flower" or "pink flower" under "Landscaping > Flowers and Plants" (the category they're best organized in), "Greenhouse", "Decor > Cut Flowers and Potted Plants", and "Other Home and Garden" hoping something will be suitable.

Um... wouldn't you just call the item 'Pink Daisy - (Asteracea)'? Why would you need to have the name of the flower as a keyword or the colour.

Keywords would be things like 'indoor, outdoor, plant, flower'

[Phil Deakins]

11 hours ago, Chris Nova said:

Anyone who sells pictures on the MP, I won't ever take seriously as a artist.

Fortunately, a person doesn't need your approval to be an actual artist, so your opinion doesn't count, and is irrelevant.

Anyone who produces art is an artist. Some create art that is liked by other people, and some produce art that nobody else likes, but they are all artists - good artists and bad artists, but artists just the same.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Phil Deakins

[Theresa Tennyson]

11 hours ago, Chris Nova said:

I know so. Anyone who sells pictures on the MP, I won't ever take seriously as a artist.

Theresa Tennyson looks at someone's custom hand-drawn avatar picture.

Theresa Tennyson says nothing at all.

[Dakota Linden]

Greetings, All!

1. Avatar Top Level Categories.  Avatar Appearance used to be the top level category for Avatar Components, and that was split off, leaving Avatar Appearance as its own category. The Avatar Appearance category was not shut down at the time because there were still listings that had been, incorrectly, placed into the Top Level Category in violation of the Marketplace Listing Guidelines and closing the category would have removed all of those wayward listings.  Decision was made not to overly punish sellers, so the category was not deprecated/removed. 

2. Avatar Accessories are for just that, accessories that you wear on your avatar. Jewelry, hats, etc. 

3. Avatar Components are parts, including the whole, that is an actual Avatar itself. Body parts, shapes, skins, etc. 

4a. Marketplace Rules and Enforcement. There ARE rules. Every Single Seller agrees to abide by them when they are presented with the Marketplace Listing Guidelines that they must agree to when they create a store. How many of you have read them, or read them recently? It IS your responsibility to know them and comply with them.  https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines

4b. There are a very limited number of members of the Governance Team and they have duties that include, but are not limited to handling Marketplace Reports & handling the multiple hundreds of reports that come in daily as Abuse Reports.  There are multiple thousands of you, the users.  It is far easier for you, during your normal usage of the Marketplace, to flag an item listing that you see that you believe violates the policies for the Marketplace (you know, those in #4 that everyone should know if they sell content on the Marketplace?), so that the Governance Team can address the report than it is for the Governance Team members to be pulled from their normal duties to try to pro-actively search through the Marketplace actively looking for violations.

5. Search and General Marketplace Suggestions.  The Linden Lab Web Team is in charge of the Marketplace web site itself.  If you have suggestions, as users of the actual service it behooves you to attend the User Group that was set up specifically where you can talk directly with members of Linden Lab regarding Second Life issues.  The Web User Group is an ongoing group that meets regularly. If you have suggestions you /should/ attend or meet with other users and pick someone who can attend and bring your concerns and suggestions directly to the appropriate team.  

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Web_User_Group

Ask the Web User Group to open up a suggestion period for new Marketplace Categories. It has happened in the past, and will happen again in the future, but they also have lots and lots of duties to attend to and have no way of knowing if there is a demand for new categories unless you, the users of the service, ask them for it. Mind Reading is not one of the requirements for a job with Linden Lab.

And on that note, Linden Lab IS Hiring. As someone who has worked for the company for nearly 13 years, I can absolutely state that it is an amazing company to work for with a product (Second Life) that has some of the best and most interesting users that I have had the honor and privilege of talking with and helping in those 13 years.  If you get a job here, you will not regret it.  https://www.lindenlab.com/careers

Please remember, Second Life and the Marketplace are a service, provided to you. If you see or have issues with the service, especially if you have suggestions that can make it better for you and the other users of the service, find the appropriate channels for letting us know. We really do care and we really DO want to try to make it the best it can possibly be for everyone involved.  

No one would work for a company for almost 13 years if they believed otherwise and there are a LOT of us who have worked here for that long, or longer and many, many, more who have worked for the company for 5+ years already with no signs of stopping any time soon. 

[FairreLilette]

17 hours ago, Chris Nova said:

No self respecting actual graphic artist is going to use the marketplace for their work (why I mentioned flickr). The marketplace does not need a category for pictures taken in SL due to dramatically low image quality (also why I mentioned flickr). 

I have sold original one-of-a-kind artworks on MP and as a matter of fact have two artworks on there now which are not one-of-a-kind.  Yeah, they are super el cheapo but I am discount creator and have always been a discount creator - one who puts a variety of things up for alts and newbies mostly, and often my items are limited time and I change them a lot.  I know the picture quality on MP is horribly low and very out-dated, but I offer demos of most of my items, even furniture and artworks. 

It would be nice, if after almost 20 years, we could put larger photos on MP.  It is pretty out-dated and for the dial-up era.  

As far as FLICKR, I keep my FLICKR private for certain artist friends I share it with because it's not for sale.  I don't use a FLICKR page for SL.  It's too much work.  I don't have that kind of volume.  

Edited April 30, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Doc Carling]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

It would be nice, if after almost 20 years, we could put larger photos on MP.  It is pretty out-dated and for the dial-up era. 

No need, if you have a blog or use a web service to save your original pictures online. Then you can put the pictures which you uploaded to SL in the box and a download link too, where people can get the original pictures. That's what I'm planing to do. I tried to list  download links only. Linden removed it. I don't know exactly why. I guess to list just third party links for sale violates the market TOS.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Doc Carling

[FairreLilette]

13 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

No need, if you have a blog or use a web service to save your original pictures online. Then you can put the pictures which you uploaded to SL in the box and a download link too, where people can get the original pictures. That's what I'm planing to do. I tried to list  download links only. Linden removed it. They demand that the listing offers a SL good.

Well, all I am saying is there is no cookie cutter way to do anything in SL but I'm also saying just put a demo, especially since people use all different kinds of lighting they need to see it in their preferred lighting.  I just think people should put more demos as they'd get more business too.  Many people won't buy anything without a demo.  But, I think artists could sell on MP but it never hurts to put a demo.

As far as the picture image for MP, it is old.  If I'd like to bump my pixels up for photography, then I gotta lower it for MP, then higher it for photography and so on, up and down and up and down.  Or I forgot I lowered it for MP and took the pic in lower quality pixels and missed what could have been a really great SL personal photo if I'd remembered to bump the pixels up.  It could use a larger image update, imo.  

In short, I like the idea of an original art category.

Edited April 30, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

Well, all I am saying is there is no cookie cutter way to do anything in SL but I'm also saying just put a demo, especially since people use all different kinds of lighting they need to see it in their preferred lighting.  I just think people should put more demos as they'd get more business too.  Many people won't buy anything without a demo.  But, I think artists could sell on MP but it never hurts to put a demo.

As far as the picture image for MP, it is old.  If I'd like to bump my pixels up for photography, then I gotta lower it for MP, then higher it for photography and so on, up and down and up and down.  Or I forgot I lowered it for MP and took the pic in lower quality pixels for MP and missed what could have been a really great photo if I'd remembered to bump the pixels up.  It could use a larger image update, imo.  

 

The other solution is to resize your photo, decreasing the number of pixels it takes to store the image, which reduces it's file size proportionally. Reducing image size doesn't reduce image quality, although it may lose some very small details if they become too small.

[FairreLilette]

14 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

 

The other solution is to resize your photo, decreasing the number of pixels it takes to store the image, which reduces it's file size proportionally. Reducing image size doesn't reduce image quality, although it may lose some very small details if they become too small.

It's possible but not sure how it's going to look since most of my photos are not taken with crop in mind for MP and I use full image mostly.  All I can do is try it, but my opinion is still my opinion about what I think and that is the allotted image photo size for MP photos is out-dated and too small.

Edited April 30, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Finite]

5 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

It's possible but not sure how it's going to look since most of my photos are not taken with crop in mind for MP and I use full image mostly.  All I can do is try it, but my opinion is still my opinion about what I think and that is the image photo size for MP photos is out-dated and too small.

I usually just work with the same proportions. For instance if I make a picture that is say 2048x1024 pixels I would make an object that is 2.048x1.024 and scale it up or down proportionately from there. The game only displays 72ppi regardless so scaling shouldn't reduce or enhance the quality assuming the original is 72ppi or more and you're not making it so big that it ends up being less than 72ppi (pixels per inch).

If I'm planning on uploading to SL I work in 72ppi. If for display on the web I use 96-150. For print 300-1200ppi.

[FairreLilette]

22 minutes ago, Finite said:

For print 300-1200ppi.

I remember when 300 was the standard.  That was a long time ago.  I have a friend who uses 7000 for websites now.  Things have changed.   

Edited April 30, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Rowan Amore]

Crop and resize are different functions.

[Finite]

18 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I remember when 300 was the standard.  That was a long time ago.  I have a friend who uses 7000 for websites now.  Things have changed.   

7000ppi for a website? Doesn't seem right. Printers require the most with the minimum being 300ppi for color. Black and white or greyscale can get away with 150ppi. However anything with type on it I wouldn't recommend anything less than 300 regardless of color or black and white. Most of the high end production digital printers (machines in the 125k to 250k usd range) don't print higher than 1200ppi. Websites only require and usually only display 72ppi. 96-150 would be considered high quality for a website. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Finite

[FairreLilette]

29 minutes ago, Finite said:

7000ppi for a website? Doesn't seem right. Printers require the most with the minimum being 300ppi for color. Black and white or greyscale can get away with 150ppi. However anything with type on it I wouldn't recommend anything less than 300 regardless of color or black and white. Most of the high end production digital printers (machines in the 125k to 250k usd range) don't print higher than 1200ppi. Websites only require and usually only display 72ppi. 96-150 would be considered high quality for a website. 

Yeah, I had that mixed up...that's for scanning in.  I told him I scan at 1200 and it takes forever, and he told me 7000 but that's for going in (scanning), and that's dpi, not ppi.  But, 7000 dpi does seem like a lot, even for scanning but that's what he does and he's a professional.  Dpi/ppi, I'm not sure of the difference.  

[Finite]

17 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Yeah, I had that mixed up...that's for scanning in.  I told him I scan at 1200 and it takes forever, and he told me 7000 but that's for going in (scanning), and that's dpi, not ppi.  But, 7000 dpi does seem like a lot, even for scanning but that's what he does and he's a professional.  Dpi/ppi, I'm not sure of the difference.  

Yes scanning makes sense but still think anything over 1200 is pointless unless you plan on the output print being something like a billboard size.

PPI and DPI are the same. DPI (dots per inch is in reference to inkjet type printers) is what we used to call it. Now it's almost universally referred to as PPI. Some old timers might still say DPI.

[Drayke Newall]

7 hours ago, Dakota Linden said:

Greetings, All!

1. Avatar Top Level Categories.  Avatar Appearance used to be the top level category for Avatar Components, and that was split off, leaving Avatar Appearance as its own category. The Avatar Appearance category was not shut down at the time because there were still listings that had been, incorrectly, placed into the Top Level Category in violation of the Marketplace Listing Guidelines and closing the category would have removed all of those wayward listings.  Decision was made not to overly punish sellers, so the category was not deprecated/removed.

If this was the case, why was the category not locked for any new listings being made and those listing that were already in there moved to the correct category? Would this not have been a lot better than having 2 Avatar sections that generally mean the same thing?

7 hours ago, Dakota Linden said:

4b. There are a very limited number of members of the Governance Team and they have duties that include, but are not limited to handling Marketplace Reports & handling the multiple hundreds of reports that come in daily as Abuse Reports.  There are multiple thousands of you, the users.  It is far easier for you, during your normal usage of the Marketplace, to flag an item listing that you see that you believe violates the policies for the Marketplace (you know, those in #4 that everyone should know if they sell content on the Marketplace?), so that the Governance Team can address the report than it is for the Governance Team members to be pulled from their normal duties to try to pro-actively search through the Marketplace actively looking for violations.

I understand this however, seeing as this implies that a limited staff is not keeping up with the reports then, it would be in LL's best interest to try and limit those by modifying the Marketplace to help reduce those reports of things like keyword spam etc? Why is it placed on the users responsibility to suggest ways to fix these issues rather than the MP or Web team? Surely they can work out how to reduce the keyword spam or wrong category issues without input from the users.

Keyword spam fixes have been mentioned above with regards to the removal of user submitted keywords to a auto generated system. If such a system was implemented not only would it help with keyword spam but it would also in general fix the wrong category system as you would need to enter the correct category to get the correct keywords for the listing.

7 hours ago, Dakota Linden said:

5. Search and General Marketplace Suggestions.  The Linden Lab Web Team is in charge of the Marketplace web site itself.  If you have suggestions, as users of the actual service it behooves you to attend the User Group that was set up specifically where you can talk directly with members of Linden Lab regarding Second Life issues.  The Web User Group is an ongoing group that meets regularly. If you have suggestions you /should/ attend or meet with other users and pick someone who can attend and bring your concerns and suggestions directly to the appropriate team.  

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Web_User_Group

Ask the Web User Group to open up a suggestion period for new Marketplace Categories. It has happened in the past, and will happen again in the future, but they also have lots and lots of duties to attend to and have no way of knowing if there is a demand for new categories unless you, the users of the service, ask them for it. Mind Reading is not one of the requirements for a job with Linden Lab.

That's all well and good if you live in America and can attend such meetings in US time, however for many of your residents that are overseas this is just impossible. 3am for me is never going to happen. Whilst I also understand that there is Jira, would it not be easier to just send this thread to the web team directly so as they can see the suggestions or complains people have?

Jira doesn't get the amount of people these forums do for people making complaints or feedback, not to mention some people find Jira daunting and only for bug reports (I know it isn't).

[Artorius Constantine]

Just wanted to say that the Boolean AND reduced the findings to 58 matching items.

And every item was a catwa beard.

catwa ANDbeard

 

That said, I 100% agree keyword spam is a huge issue. Even the Booleans don't always work.

[AnthonyJoanne]

On 5/1/2021 at 3:33 AM, Dakota Linden said:

4b. There are a very limited number of members of the Governance Team and they have duties that include, but are not limited to handling Marketplace Reports & handling the multiple hundreds of reports that come in daily as Abuse Reports.  There are multiple thousands of you, the users.  It is far easier for you, during your normal usage of the Marketplace, to flag an item listing that you see that you believe violates the policies for the Marketplace (you know, those in #4 that everyone should know if they sell content on the Marketplace?), so that the Governance Team can address the report than it is for the Governance Team members to be pulled from their normal duties to try to pro-actively search through the Marketplace actively looking for violations.

While I acknowledge that there are a limited number of members of the Governance Team ... I have to point out that that your system actively works to prevent users to reporting a large number of infractions.

Case in point ... keyword spam. There are some shops who have many infractions of this particular rule. While searching the MP I frequently get returns from a number of shops which include the names of all mesh bodies as keywords even when the item in question only fits one particular body. I report these infractions ... however the shops in question have dozens (perhaps hundreds) of such items and your system only permits me to report one at a time. I think it would be appropriate for LL to acknowledge, in it's system design, that the users have a finite amount of time (as does your Governance Team) and it's unreasonable to expect us to list every single infraction in a given shop.

And I KEEP seeing new infractions by the same shops that I have reported for this issue multiple times.

Remember ... your Governance Team is getting paid to deal with this stuff and are aware of the results whereas we, as users, report an infraction and (as I pointed out above) we often feel like we're achieving nothing.

 

 

[Mollymews]

I have never seen a non-plain view keywords list that has never been abused by somebody

if it was up to me and I did want keyword capability as a service provider then I would publish the keywords list in immediate plain view. On the product description page

immediate plain view publishing tends to stop more abuse than any other method

 

[Waiomao]

This reminds me of being at university and doing web searches for terms like management, import export, tariffs, commerce law, etc., and inevitably the search results included porn sites. Ugghh. Websites - and SLMP stores - can add any keywords they like, and that inevitably screws up searches. I agree with the OP - searches on SLMP are a huge PITA. Now I try to buy from inworld stores, so that talented creators don't lose a percentage of their sale, and so that the purchase doesn't support a virtually unregulated SLMP. Having said that, I understand that LL doesn't have the FTE bandwidth to police SLMP any more than they can police Linden Realms for violators.