Bring back SL Modeling

[LilKristi]

I really want to be a model in Second Life while I'm working on getting myself into shape and ready to be a model in RL. We need to petition to bring back modeling in Second Life so there is another job market again. Do you guys think this would be a possibility

[Rowan Amore]

Because it costs more than it pays to be a model in SL.  The time and money to be up to date and current with the newest looks far out weights any monetary gain.  It's never been a viable way to make money.  Hair, makeup, clothing, poses.  Not just once but on a regular basis.

Looking into MVW.  See what they required to enter their contests.  You're expected to provide your own look with the theme they ask for.  Plus, a professional photo if you're unable to do your own.  

As far as store models?  There might be a handful of places that hire models.  It's easier for them to just make alts that they can use in multiple ways.

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, LilKristi said:

We need to petition to bring back modeling in Second Life so there is another job market again. Do you guys think this would be a possibility

nope
passed station.

It's much more a overpriced RP now.( to pay... not to get payed)

Edited April 23, 2021 by Alwin Alcott

[Tazzie Tuque]

The model situation is not unlike that of a DJ in SL now.  No DJ's that I know of are paid by the clubs they work in yet there is an overhead, costs that must be incurred by the DJ in order to provide the service.  The cost of a stream, the cost of maintaining a good broadcasting program, the cost of a high speed internet service so you get enough upload speed to be able to stream, and the cost of maintaining a decent looking avatar.  The cost of a good microphone.   There are many DJ's out there who try to cut corners but the quality of what they provide is not the same..  In short all DJ's rely heavily on tips to be able to continue.  So my thoughts on this are that perhaps Models need to be allowed to put out tip jars during fashion shows etc.  to gain back some revenue.  As for store models I doubt that this would work for them but it might.  Live singers and artists get paid well when they are hired (unless it is for a charity) and they also put out tip jars.  Models and DJ's do not have this advantage, so why not go the tip route.  I would tip a good model during a fashion show, why not.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

What are you going to petition exactly?

"ll pls force creators to pay someone else for their product images so i can get paid"

[Orwar]

   From a photographer's perspective .. Why should I pay models rather than make my own alts to use to model? Saves me a ton of hassle instructing people how to adjust things, allows me to make the pose for my own avatars' shapes, and there's no one trying to distract me by being flirty when I'm setting up the shoot. Besides, my alts are never late to shoots or fail to show up to appointments.

   Don't get me wrong, it's great fun to shoot with other people on occasion, and I have done the occasional model search - but it's never a paid position. It's always a deal of the model setting up their look, me doing the shoot and editing, they get to use the photos for their blogs or whatever, as long as they credit me as the photographer when they share it.

[Damien Evergarden]

@LilKristi if you're looking to be a store model, I know GlamBody is always looking for new people to model forthcoming shapes that will be hitting their store and marketplace. Send me a message in-world and I can introduce you to the owner if you're interested. 

[Evah Baxton]

3 hours ago, Orwar said:

   From a photographer's perspective .. Why should I pay models rather than make my own alts to use to model? Saves me a ton of hassle instructing people how to adjust things, allows me to make the pose for my own avatars' shapes, and there's no one trying to distract me by being flirty when I'm setting up the shoot. Besides, my alts are never late to shoots or fail to show up to appointments.

Doesn't it take a lot of your time (as labor $) and real $ to purchase all the items and set up the alts?

I get that the time is probably worth it because it's fun and it's easier than dealing with the hassles you mentioned, but ...

Theoretically, IF you could sell your product at the same price whether you built an alt or hired a model, wouldn't the model be less expensive?

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Evah Baxton said:

Doesn't it take a lot of your time (as labor $) and real $ to purchase all the items and set up the alts?

I get that the time is probably worth it because it's fun and it's easier than dealing with the hassles you mentioned, but ...

Theoretically, IF you could sell your product at the same price whether you built an alt or hired a model, wouldn't the model be less expensive?

You build the avatar once.  If you're selling clothes, well, you don't have to purchase them.  Drag out the alt whenever you need one.  Pose, shoot, done.  Working around someone else's schedule, RL interruptions, explaining what you want.  Sooo much easier with an alt.  IMO

[MarissaOrloff]

On 4/23/2021 at 1:57 PM, Rowan Amore said:

You build the avatar once.  If you're selling clothes, well, you don't have to purchase them.  Drag out the alt whenever you need one.  Pose, shoot, done.  Working around someone else's schedule, RL interruptions, explaining what you want.  Sooo much easier with an alt.  IMO

Alts don't get bored, suddenly poof, have no idea what your'e talking about, always willing to stay in one position for hours on end, dont care how long it takes to fiddle with lights, environment settings and camera angles. Most importantly they never backtalk or give push back.

Edited April 26, 2021 by MarissaOrloff

[Alwin Alcott]

7 hours ago, MarissaOrloff said:

Alts don't get bored, suddenly poof, have no idea what your'e talking about, always willing to stay in one position for hours on end, dont care how long it takes to fiddle with lights, environment settings and camera angles. Most importantly they never backtalk or give push back.

you never met my alts   

[Evah Baxton]

On 4/23/2021 at 10:57 AM, Rowan Amore said:

You build the avatar once.  If you're selling clothes, well, you don't have to purchase them.  Drag out the alt whenever you need one.  Pose, shoot, done.  Working around someone else's schedule, RL interruptions, explaining what you want.  Sooo much easier with an alt.  IMO

For sure. Maybe there would be a comeback if there were a modeling company in SL that didn't care about anything but the sale of the final product. They'd have to be pushing through SL models like crazy. Couldn't possibly be that many out there willing to model under those circumstances.

[Jax Leeder]

I'm pretty sure "real models" do not provide value for money - neither for the model nor for those who may want to hire them.

As others have stated, a model would need to have several mesh bodies (as well as heads for hair/makeup etc.). That's not cheap.

A content creator will no doubt already have the mesh bodies and heads that they create content for - either on themselves or alts. So using their own resources makes sense.

Due to the permissions system a model essentially gets free stuff each photoshoot when they work for a content creator - expecting to get paid on top of that is probably asking a lot.

Unlike real life - a model in SL requires no skills at all - just an injection of L$ and shopping. Literally anyone can be a model so if you want to make it you have to be something outstanding and that means a heck of a lot of work. Honestly I'd say it's just not worth it.

 

[Orwar]

2 hours ago, Jax Leeder said:

Unlike real life - a model in SL requires no skills at all - just an injection of L$ and shopping. Literally anyone can be a model so if you want to make it you have to be something outstanding and that means a heck of a lot of work.

   I don't fully agree. Being even a 'still' model in SL does require certain some skill:

• You must have some basic skills with the build tool to adjust and position unrigged accessories.
• You must have some idea of how shapes and poses work, and be able to adjust your shape in case the pose does not 'fit'.
• You must know how to operate your avatar's animation HUDs.
• You must know how to operate your mesh body/head HUDs' material settings.

   Whilst neither are difficult to learn and should be reasonably expected for anyone to be able to do with fairly simple instructions .. Well, in my experience there's not always 'reasonable' to expect people to comprehend even simple concepts.

   Not all skills are required in every session, there are times you won't wear unrigged accessories, or find yourself in a pose that requires adjusting, and there are tools that the photographer can use (like controlling people's eye position), but if you can't stop blinking or shaking your head, or don't understand that your body looks like it's been smeared with oil, and aren't receptible to instructions, you're going to have a very grumpy photographer quite soon.

[Quartz Mole]

On 4/26/2021 at 9:47 PM, MarissaOrloff said:

Alts don't get bored, suddenly poof, have no idea what your'e talking about, always willing to stay in one position for hours on end, dont care how long it takes to fiddle with lights, environment settings and camera angles. Most importantly they never backtalk or give push back.

I'll be interested to hear @Madelaine McMasters' views on this.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Quartz Mole

[Snugs McMasters]

4 hours ago, Quartz Mole said:

On 4/26/2021 at 3:47 PM, MarissaOrloff said:

Alts don't get bored, suddenly poof, have no idea what your'e talking about, always willing to stay in one position for hours on end, dont care how long it takes to fiddle with lights, environment settings and camera angles. Most importantly they never backtalk or give push back.

I'll be interested to hear @Madelaine McMasters' views on this.

You want to hear her views so badly you actually mentioned her? What the hell are you thinking, Quartz?!

Do you know what's going to happen when she wakes up? She's gonna see her name in lights and grow her half of our head so big I'll have to step outside. Then she'll come here and bloviate.

Marissa has clearly never met Maddy. Does anyone have even the slightest clue what she talks about? I sure don't. When she gets a bee up her butt, she prattles on and on and on until she sounds like the trombone "adults" in Peanuts cartoons. I really gotta wonder about anyone who asks for more of that. Seriously, what's wrong with you?

Also...

I'm perfectly happy to wear the only outfit in my closet, a referee's uniform. Maddy, however, looks at me and sees nothing but a mannequin. So, I spend half my time here standing around half naked while Maddy test fits outfits on me before sending them to her partner, who she keeps... half naked. I don't know why Nicole puts up with it, SL gets chilly.

I'm not the only alt who's tired of being Maddy's. Dave23 (an octopus) now finds himself running "Dave's Laundry" on the ocean floor just off the coast of Maddy's little island. She tosses her dirty laundry into the surf every morning and expects Dave to return it, clean, the next day. At least he's got the chutzpah to hurl everything into the palm trees when he's done, forcing Maddy to shinny up there to retrieve it.

The rest of her alts are usually sent to "The Far Away" to try to steal that damned locomotive. RootbeerDrinkingLampshade got caught in the act by AM Radio himself. Oh, how I wish I'd been there to hear that conversation, and to help Shady plead her case.

It ain't easy being Maddy's alts. We'd sorely appreciate a little empathy from the rest of you rather than further encouragement for her.

[Madelaine McMasters]

4 hours ago, Snugs McMasters said:

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blahhhhhh...

Bloviate?

Ingrate!

[Monica Querrien]

I work as a store model in SL. They are still out there if you know where to look. But I would imagine that they want experienced models.

Store modeling in SL has decreased because the average brand doesn't care anymore about bringing traffic to their main stores. They care about putting their items to market (aka events). Also, models serve as a way to show off the clothing before you buy it. Nowadays, anyone can demo clothing.

If anything, look at related skills such as CSR, and vendor ad creation. If you work as a CSR, some stores want you to be on site, which means you would need clothing so you can represent the brand. If you do vendor ad creation, then you will take photos of yourself to be used in the ads. Hence, you will need their clothing.

[Monica Querrien]

On 4/23/2021 at 9:18 AM, Orwar said:

   From a photographer's perspective .. Why should I pay models rather than make my own alts to use to model? Saves me a ton of hassle instructing people how to adjust things, allows me to make the pose for my own avatars' shapes, and there's no one trying to distract me by being flirty when I'm setting up the shoot. Besides, my alts are never late to shoots or fail to show up to appointments.

   Don't get me wrong, it's great fun to shoot with other people on occasion, and I have done the occasional model search - but it's never a paid position. It's always a deal of the model setting up their look, me doing the shoot and editing, they get to use the photos for their blogs or whatever, as long as they credit me as the photographer when they share it.

I would say the trickiest thing is to decide when the photographer and model meet. Trained models know how to quickly style whatever look that someone gives them, and to make whatever adjustments necessary. And for vendor ads or advertisement ads,  I don't consider clothing as payment, because a lot of the time I won't wear it after the shoot. So what value would it be for me? I can't pay tier with an outfit.

Sometimes photographers need models for their portfolio. That may be more of an exchange of services. The model provides their time and use as a subject. The photographer gets their practice, gets another photo for their portfolio, and may thank the model by giving them a photo from the session.

[Orwar]

12 minutes ago, Monica Querrien said:

And for vendor ads or advertisement ads,  I don't consider clothing as payment, because a lot of the time I won't wear it after the shoot. So what value would it be for me? I can't pay tier with an outfit.

   Well, most bloggers are paid only in the products they advertise for the creators they work with, which gives both parties publicity opportunities. Fashion blogging has pretty much replaced in-world modelling, and whilst there are similarities between the two, bloggers will often not just model, but also take the picture themselves, edit the pictures, play the Flickr game, design a website for their blog, operate the Blogotex, occasionally using further platforms such as Instagram or Facebook, writing credit lists with store SLURLs, etc. - all whilst themselves paying for their domain, premium/pro features on those platforms and for subscriptions for their editing programs.

   So, a model wanting to do only a fraction of that work, wanting to get paid in addition to just doing the styling part, when there's a legion of aspiring and experienced, hard working bloggers out there .. Sort of comes off a little naive and entitled, to be honest. And, as you mentioned yourself, a store owner could just as well just put in their policy that their CSRs should be on-site and be representative of the brand's products whilst on the clock, to kill two birds with one stone.

   There still are catwalk events though, and whilst some stores may use models, most stores who do will use bots - some tattoo stores even have bots that customers can control via demo interfaces to TP over to the tattoo you're interested in and put it on so you can see what it looks like in-world without putting a demo on (because apparently making demo versions of tattoos is too much work - BoM products rarely have demos, which I find curious). 

   Back in the early days of SL, when many people were happy to make L$5 in a day of sim camping, and anyone who could figure out how to rez a prim could potentially become a successful creator, being paid a steady income of L$5 per hour to be a model was, in a sense, glamorous. The economy of SL has changed a lot since then, most clubs' tip jars start at L$50 for their suggested tip amounts, and dancers can list hundreds of L$ for a 15 minute private dance, with some going up to thousands in hourly rates for more intimate services.

[Monica Querrien]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

   Well, most bloggers are paid only in the products they advertise for the creators they work with, which gives both parties publicity opportunities. Fashion blogging has pretty much replaced in-world modelling, and whilst there are similarities between the two, bloggers will often not just model, but also take the picture themselves, edit the pictures, play the Flickr game, design a website for their blog, operate the Blogotex, occasionally using further platforms such as Instagram or Facebook, writing credit lists with store SLURLs, etc. - all whilst themselves paying for their domain, premium/pro features on those platforms and for subscriptions for their editing programs.

   So, a model wanting to do only a fraction of that work, wanting to get paid in addition to just doing the styling part, when there's a legion of aspiring and experienced, hard working bloggers out there .. Sort of comes off a little naive and entitled, to be honest. And, as you mentioned yourself, a store owner could just as well just put in their policy that their CSRs should be on-site and be representative of the brand's products whilst on the clock, to kill two birds with one stone.

   There still are catwalk events though, and whilst some stores may use models, most stores who do will use bots - some tattoo stores even have bots that customers can control via demo interfaces to TP over to the tattoo you're interested in and put it on so you can see what it looks like in-world without putting a demo on (because apparently making demo versions of tattoos is too much work - BoM products rarely have demos, which I find curious). 

   Back in the early days of SL, when many people were happy to make L$5 in a day of sim camping, and anyone who could figure out how to rez a prim could potentially become a successful creator, being paid a steady income of L$5 per hour to be a model was, in a sense, glamorous. The economy of SL has changed a lot since then, most clubs' tip jars start at L$50 for their suggested tip amounts, and dancers can list hundreds of L$ for a 15 minute private dance, with some going up to thousands in hourly rates for more intimate services.

People who blog and do marketing in RL are always amazed at the amount of work bloggers in SL do for free. And despite them investing RL money into it, very few have been able to generate RL income from that. Bloggers and brands exchange their services. I say that because the "payment" does not pay bloggers' tier where they use to set up their scenes for blog posts. But the bloggers' work help the brands generate income. Otherwise, blogging wouldn't be as huge of a thing as it has become.

Yes, the emphasis has changed. With the advent of mesh (and demos), and the fact that brands don't need people to visit their stores in order to make sales (i.e. tons of events), everything that went along with making their brand stand out via personal experience took a back burner.

SL modeling is good at making the brand look great, via visual performance. The focus is on celebrating both the brand and designer as their work is showcased. You can't use Photoshop to select a pose that allows you to walk in a gown, or to hide fabric breaks while posing. Shows can be used as part of introducing a brand new release or collection at  main stores. How many brands nowadays release at their stores compared to at events? But then again, some events have fashion shows as part of their marketing.

With bloggers, SL brands utilize them by giving them product so that the bloggers can promote to their followers. Many can style clothing in a way that the brand can't. And it fits with the trend of rushing to get sales ASAP before the next big event opens. This is why most brands tell bloggers to blog within the first few days of an event opening. Some people call bloggers print models because they basically model the clothing in their posts.

However, when it comes to a photo shoot, experienced models are trained to style an outfit on the spot, and can do it quickly. I am not sure if an experienced blogger can do the same. From my experience, models know that their job is to showcase the work of the designer, and to use their skills to make the outfit look great. And they are used to collaborating with others. Bloggers work by themselves, and have more of a mindset that they need to showcase themselves. If a designer doesn't want someone to wear a tattoo because it doesn't fit in their vision of the outfit, the model will adjust. The blogger may protest if that's a tattoo that they never take off.

I find that both models and bloggers are devalued in SL. This happens a lot in jobs that provide services, vs those who create products. However, both models and bloggers enjoy what they do, so they don't mind. I just don't like it when people take advantage of that, and create a mindset that they don't deserve to be paid. This creates a lot of guilt in both bloggers and models when they want to take a break, but don't want to disappoint the brands that they work with. I have seen it many times, and it always makes me sad.

So when you say that it's entitlement that dictates that a model be paid for a fraction of the work, I believe it's because you think models have little value. I understand if a photographer needs models to build up their portfolio, or start-up brands not paying because they don't have a lot of money in the first place. However, if models do a vendor ad that ends up making someone money, you don't think they don't deserve any pay at all? If the brand pays for a photographer to take the picture, does the photographer get paid? If the poses were available for the model to pose on, did the pose maker get paid? This illustrates my point with product vs. service.

Models who don't know how to conduct themselves at a photo shoot is the same as bloggers setting up a basic blog and then spamming applications to as many brands as they can. Neither of them deserve any product nor payment.