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Buy Fee Change Discussion


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13 minutes ago, Kitty Barnett said:

No, it really wasn't. Quarterly wasn't subject to VAT until the price increase. (And support can't agree on what happens to my stipend if I change from quaterly to yearly with some saying I loose it, and the others saying it'll stay L$500)

as far i remember... the premium got VAT together with the landholding.
In a later stage, the fee on premium got waved.
Now they reinstated it for month and quarter ( quarter stayed on user pressure, but first plans were to skip that entirely)
The VAT on yearly is taken by LL.

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1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

This fee seems to be much like the current US President's idea of who should pay for things (read that as the wealthy folks).  It seems to me from my VERY low income perspective that anyone that can afford to spend 200 US a month on pixel products, should be able to spend "up to" 8.50 more for that pleasure. 

Question,,, so the cost  as i read it is suppose to go to the wealthy   of sl 

but  they  the wealthy/  businesses of sl  then will offset the cost of the increase by increasing the cost of the items they sell 

 ,,,, just like in real life 

  the wealthy  business owners pass on the costs of taxes and other financial  increased  costs  to the ones who buy  the goods  or services by raising the cost of things you buy 

.. so how are we to be protected from the items products we buy from an increase..  how will that work.....

Like in real life today 

The taxes that the businesses and wealthy are suppose to pay  they the wealthy businesses  then raise the cost of goods be it milk food gas clothing, housing ,etc   ... gas has gone up .. lumber is going up ,,, food has gone up,,, etc  ,, sigh  

 

Edited by roseelvira
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2 hours ago, Reed Linden said:

Okay! Good morning!  I'm back at the keys, and I'm going to try to get through everything. Starting here.

 

As mentioned above, Oz has explained that our maintenance costs have actually gone UP in AWS, not down. Running our own datacenter was fairly efficient (because we owned the hardware, rather than renting it) so long as the machines were up to date and didn't need to be replaced. However, that does mean that every so often, there's a massive expenditure required to replace all the machines. In the AWS model, that expense is defrayed over time, rather than all at once (plus a surcharge of course for the privilege). The end result from a purely financial perspective is that moving to AWS is more expensive for us month-to-month, but does not require occasional massive one-time cost spikes like running the datacenter did. From an engineering and infrastructure perspective, running Second Life in AWS opens up huge opportunities (and creates additional challenges) that we're only just now beginning to explore.  We're very excited for the future.

I can understand AWS servers are expensive, but wouldn't it reduce the cost down?  I'm sure not all users are on a region at the same time.  Isn't there some type of code that is implemented that puts that region into sleep-mode and when a user comes into that region it wakes up from being in sleep mode?  I've seen this happen in another virtual world where they reduce the cost by putting the land in sleep-mode if it isn't being used.  

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2 minutes ago, Skylar Littlepaws said:

I can understand AWS servers are expensive, but wouldn't it reduce the cost down?  I'm sure not all users are on a region at the same time.  Isn't there some type of code that is implemented that puts that region into sleep-mode and when a user comes into that region it wakes up from being in sleep mode?  I've seen this happen in another virtual world where they reduce the cost by putting the land in sleep-mode if it isn't being used.  

This is exactly the type of thing we're excited to reinvest in and leverage. More functionality for less! But the road from here to there takes effort and expertise. Not overnight and not free. :) The future is bright for Second Life! 

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10 minutes ago, roseelvira said:

 

Question,,, so the cost  as i read it is suppose to go to the wealthy   of sl  but  they  the wealthy then will offset the cost of the increase by increasing the cost of the items they sell   ,,,, just like in real life    the wealthy are business owners and they pass on the costs of taxes and increases  cost to them  when ever they can to the ones who buy  .. so how are we to be protected from the items products we buy from an increase..  how will that work.....

 

There are 3 levels of SL creators:
  - Those that make enough to not only sustain all of the L$ needs, but are able to take money out of SL on a regular basis.
  - Those that most of the time make enough to not need to buy L$, even if they cannot consistently take money out of SL.
  - Those that don't make enough to sustain their L$ needs and thus buy L$, at least somewhat regularly.

It is likely only that last category of creators that **might** pass the fee increase on to customers.  Even then, for US $19.87, you can currently get just shy of 5000 L$ for no increased fee -- and 5000 L$ would cover quite a bit of content uploads.  Thus, I'm not sure anyone will truly see a price increase for goods due to this fee increase.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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9 minutes ago, Reed Linden said:

This is exactly the type of thing we're excited to reinvest in and leverage. More functionality for less! But the road from here to there takes effort and expertise. Not overnight and not free. :) The future is bright for Second Life! 

I understand.  I thought it was already implemented before switching to AWS.  Also what about this comment I made.  

 

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16 minutes ago, Skylar Littlepaws said:

I can understand AWS servers are expensive, but wouldn't it reduce the cost down?  I'm sure not all users are on a region at the same time.  Isn't there some type of code that is implemented that puts that region into sleep-mode and when a user comes into that region it wakes up from being in sleep mode?  I've seen this happen in another virtual world where they reduce the cost by putting the land in sleep-mode if it isn't being used.  

Regions already have code which allows them to throttle down and be 'slept' when no one is there. The difference between what you're thinking of is that in SL the regions are never truly 'stopped', as scripts etc. will continue to run, albeit at a much slower pace.

What you're asking for would be some kind of regionwide hibernation feature wherein the region can be dynamically started when a resident requests to be on the region, and then stopped once they leave. Obviously scripts would only be able to run while the user is there.

Not a bad idea, but would mostly be an option for the region owner with some clear downsides depending on what they want to use the land for.

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1 minute ago, Jenna Huntsman said:

Regions already have code which allows them to throttle down and be 'slept' when no one is there. The difference between what you're thinking of is that in SL the regions are never truly 'stopped', as scripts etc. will continue to run, albeit at a much slower pace.

What you're asking for would be some kind of regionwide hibernation feature wherein the region can be dynamically started when a resident requests to be on the region, and then stopped once they leave. Obviously scripts would only be able to run while the user is there.

Not a bad idea, but would mostly be an option for the region owner with some clear downsides depending on what they want to use the land for.

That is correct.  I'm referring to region hibernation feature.  I'm sure it could be defaulted on, not sure why they would need to turn it off if no one is on the region.  The region would turn back on as soon as someone teleports to that region.  Think of it as a light switch.  There's technically power running to the light, but the switch blocked the circuit from giving it power.  When you need the light on you flick a switch and it shows up.  In retro spec it would be the same thing except no switches.  :P

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19 minutes ago, Skylar Littlepaws said:

I understand.  I thought it was already implemented before switching to AWS.  Also what about this comment I made.  

 

We did consider a more phased rollout. In the end, we made the decision that if the intention was to end up in the same place regardless, better to rip off the bandaid all at once, rather than prolong the pain over time. This is why we took such pains to ensure that the pain would be distributed as equitably as possible, and do our level best to leave the most vulnerable residents unaffected.

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14 minutes ago, Skylar Littlepaws said:

That is correct.  I'm referring to region hibernation feature.  I'm sure it could be defaulted on, not sure why they would need to turn it off if no one is on the region.  The region would turn back on as soon as someone teleports to that region.  Think of it as a light switch.  There's technically power running to the light, but the switch blocked the circuit from giving it power.  When you need the light on you flick a switch and it shows up.  In retro spec it would be the same thing except no switches.  :P

Congrats, you've just broken any script that is running on the region that has to communicate with any item of almost any kind elsewhere on the grid.

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7 minutes ago, Reed Linden said:

We did consider a more phased rollout. In the end, we made the decision that if the intention was to end up in the same place regardless, better to rip off the bandaid all at once, rather than prolong the pain over time. This is why we took such pains to ensure that the pain would be distributed as equitably as possible, and do our level best to leave the most vulnerable residents unaffected.

That is true it would still end up in the same.  However; it would still give users time and adjustment.  Making it easier on the consumer level since most of us are still recovering.  If this was pre-pandemic I think most of us would be okay with the 7.5 increase. It would put more pressure on us from purchasing lindens if this major jump happens now.  

Edited by Skylar Littlepaws
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Linden Lab announced a couple years ago that they would make changes like this to offset a reduction in land prices. I was ecstatic. These were the kinds of fees I was fine with increasing. With all due respect to the listed items this will help with, am I safe to assume that Linden Lab is satisfied with the amount that land prices have been reduced to date, or does Linden Lab agree that the cost of getting your foot in the door with a region is still too steep?

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9 minutes ago, Skylar Littlepaws said:

I'm saying when it comes to avatars, not scripts.  

 

Yes, and unless some bit of information is missing somewhere the regions are either up and running or suspended/hibernating.

Put simply, you'd not be able to just hibernate the bits that load in for avatars and not the bits that run the scripts. The regions - last I checked - are all or nothing.

Edited by Solar Legion
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42 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 

There are 3 levels of SL creators:
  - Those that make enough to not only sustain all of the L$ needs, but are able to take money out of SL on a regular basis.
  - Those that most of the time make enough to not need to buy L$, even if they cannot consistently take money out of SL.
  - Those that don't make enough to sustain their L$ needs and thus buy L$, at least somewhat regularly.

It is likely only that last category of creators that **might** pass the fee increase on to customers.  Even then, for US $19.87, you can currently get just shy of 5000 L$ for no increased fee -- and 5000 L$ would cover quite a bit of content uploads.  Thus, I'm not sure anyone will truly see a price increase for goods due to this fee increase.

I tend to agree overall with LittleMeJewel's post.  

I think what might increase is land rentals, although at a cap of $9.99, I do not in any way see land rentals need to go up much.  So, if a person's land rental goes up, some creator's may raise a few prices.

Prices should come down as these items just copy over and over and over endlessly.  One can sell far more on volume at lower prices and probably make more with lower prices.  One company that is quite popular recently reduced some of their shoe fatpacks by 75%.  I bet they are making more money than ever when the price was triple what it is now.  At 75% lower, tons more buy and it's more money than none or perhaps one sale here or there for those same higher priced shoe fatpacks they used to have.  Now they need to sell three fatpacks to make up their previous cost of one...what if they are selling ten at that reduced price whereas with their old price they might have sold one.  I've already lived this.  I've sold hundreds and hundreds of sculpty bathtubs at 39 lindens apiece and I had 12 styles (I have discontinued these as I wanted out of sculpties); but if those same bathtubs had been a higher price I might have sold three total, not hundreds and hundreds.  

Sure we have a stimulus now but that is not going to last forever and some people in this world may find they have no job at all after all lockdowns are over.  It's not a good time to raise prices on anything with fragile economies.  But, this increase for me may cost me at most $1.50 a month.  This is not a big price increase for me at all.

Edited by FairreLilette
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11 minutes ago, Reed Linden said:

We did consider a more phased rollout. In the end, we made the decision that if the intention was to end up in the same place regardless, better to rip off the bandaid all at once, rather than prolong the pain over time.

Like when when my man gets a boo-boo and I come by and RIP off that band-aid, with enough hair to make a cat? :D

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SL is, was and always will be a luxury item for most people.  People who don't need SL income for RL expenses.  Just like any other luxury in RL, be it clothing, dining out, movies, vacations, if RL money is tight, you cut back.  I've dramatically cut back on what I spend since the pandemic began.  I no longer rent on a private region which I've always done and purchased a mainland plot as my base.  I might buy 5000L a month where I used to spend 3 or 4 times more.

Some people have had to cut back on  RL things.  A luxury is hardly something to moan about when it suddenly costs more.  You don't HAVE to purchase anything in SL to sustain your RL.  We need a little perspective here.

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10 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Yes, and unless some bit of information is missing somewhere the regions are either up and running or suspended/hibernating.

Put simply, you'd not be able to just hibernate the bits that load in for avatars from the bits that run the scripts. The regions - last I checked - are all or nothing.

There are other grids that have figured out how to do that so likely S/L could too.

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18 hours ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

SL has to make money to continue running,  so you believe this is a bad move,   I see it as a move so they continue to operate and not dig into their bottom line,   you need to go own a company where you learn that fee's will eat you alive,  unless you pass them along to the consumer,   I know first hand what fee's can do and I know they had to be passed along or I would not be in business.  

Theoretically you are right- unfortunately however SL is full of freeloaders- an issue if you are trying to recover costs

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2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There are other grids that have figured out how to do that so likely S/L could too.

That's nice. We have no idea if it set up that way at present or if it is even something that can be set up as opposed to designed from the very beginning.

Put another way: What other grids have done is irrelevant.

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1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

That's nice. We have no idea if it set up that way at present or if it is even something that can be set up as opposed to designed from the very beginning.

Put another way: What other grids have done is irrelevant.

When an entity does not look outside of itself, it is doomed to become irrelevant.

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3 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

When an entity does not look outside of itself, it is doomed to become irrelevant.

Again, that's nice. They're all based on Second Life with their own deviations in code. Some major and others not so much.

That is not looking outside oneself. That is examining mutations.

Either way, looking at them is irrelevant as their systems are not likely to match up one to one with the systems Linden Lab put into place.

Looking to them for future ideas? Yep, sure. That is it. There is no reason to look to/at them for any sort of design choice/reference.

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21 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Looking to them for future ideas? Yep, sure. That is it. There is no reason to look to/at them for any sort of design choice/reference.

Well being I have not seen one idea forthcoming from you in the time I have been here and you scorn the ones anyone else here has had, it does not leave much room for other options, does it? 

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