Buy Fee Change Discussion

[Pixels Sideways]

On 4/15/2021 at 12:08 PM, Reed Linden said:

Hi, Bitterthorn! 

I can't give an exact dollar value breakdown, but what I can say is that we are committed to reinvesting all of that revenue back into Second Life. The revenue generated from this modest fee increase will unlock and facilitate nearly all of our redoubled efforts to make Second Life an amazing experience for all of you going forward. 

  

Hmmmmm...

Here's a reply on May 5th, 2021 from LL on a Jira request I made in April - the same request that has been made in other Jira's since 2018 on creating separate head and body appearance shapers options.  

"Thanks! We have this proposal already in our queue for possible future work. Would be useful but not super simple to implement, so I can't say anything about how soon we might be able to work on it."

You know what was not super simple to implement?  Building an entire new VR platform called Sansar no one wanted to use.  Imagine if time, talent, resources and the millions of RL dollars SL residents forked over to LL had been used instead to significantly improve SL with things like separate head and body appearance shaper options.  

I don't have an issue with fee increases but LL gaslighting users on how increases in fees will improve SL is kinda insulting when you see the return on previous increases was grossly misdirected to Sansar and that there are a lot of SL improvement requests in the Jira that have been languishing for years. 

I'm not a programmer and undoubtedly some of the fixes and improvement requests in the Jira are challenging but isn't that what increases in fees were/are supposed to cover - redirecting resources and/or hiring people with the knowledge and skill sets to knock this stuff out? 

 

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-230619?focusedCommentId=652882&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-652882

 

[Sassy Kenin]

10 hours ago, Pixels Sideways said:

You know what was not super simple to implement?  Building an entire new VR platform called Sansar no one wanted to use.  Imagine if time, talent, resources and the millions of RL dollars SL residents forked over to LL had been used instead to significantly improve SL with things like separate head and body appearance shaper options. 

It was not the money, was the time lost & missed opportunity's and a clock that stops for no one. enjoy things in the next few years while we have them is the best we can do. certainly the lindens love second life and want it to go on and miracles in life can happen some might say.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Sassy Kenin

[AdminGirl]

10 hours ago, Pixels Sideways said:

Hmmmmm...

Here's a reply on May 5th, 2021 from LL on a Jira request I made in April - the same request that has been made in other Jira's since 2018 on creating separate head and body appearance shapers options.  

"Thanks! We have this proposal already in our queue for possible future work. Would be useful but not super simple to implement, so I can't say anything about how soon we might be able to work on it."

You know what was not super simple to implement?  Building an entire new VR platform called Sansar no one wanted to use.  Imagine if time, talent, resources and the millions of RL dollars SL residents forked over to LL had been used instead to significantly improve SL with things like separate head and body appearance shaper options.  

I don't have an issue with fee increases but LL gaslighting users on how increases in fees will improve SL is kinda insulting when you see the return on previous increases was grossly misdirected to Sansar and that there are a lot of SL improvement requests in the Jira that have been languishing for years. 

I'm not a programmer and undoubtedly some of the fixes and improvement requests in the Jira are challenging but isn't that what increases in fees were/are supposed to cover - redirecting resources and/or hiring people with the knowledge and skill sets to knock this stuff out? 

 

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-230619?focusedCommentId=652882&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel#comment-652882

 

I don't bother with JIRAs anymore, they never seem to go anywhere.

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, AdminGirl said:

I don't bother with JIRAs anymore, they never seem to go anywhere.

It helps to visit the relevant in world meetings and ask about it.

There are a lot of JIRAs and only so many staff / hours in the day, it's very easy for something to get stuck in limbo following acknowledgement as something that needs time.

[Arielle Popstar]

They seem to keep a closer eye on the threads in the forums then the Jira. Maybe they should move it here. Problem with the inworld meetings is that there is no official logs kept so basically wind up having to bring it it back up every few weeks.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Arielle Popstar

[LittleMe Jewell]

22 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

They seem to keep a closer eye on the threads in the forums then the Jira. Maybe they should move it here. Problem with the inworld meetings is that there is no official logs kept so basically wind up having to bring it it back up every few weeks.

Not to mention that not all of us are available for meetings in the middle of the US work day.  Besides lots of US folks working, it is even be the middle of the night on some of the other countries.

[Coffee Pancake]

24 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Not to mention that not all of us are available for meetings in the middle of the US work day.  Besides lots of US folks working, it is even be the middle of the night on some of the other countries.

You can just poke someone who does go to the meetings with a link to the relevant JIRA and then catch up the response on Pantera's YT channel.

 

[Scott1 Yedmore]

On 4/15/2021 at 5:15 PM, Scott1 Yedmore said:

I'm curious Reed... If LL was operating out of your own datacenter(s) then a move to AWS resulted in lower costs to you, already. (I work in this field.) But the blog announcement made this sound like a hardship to LL and, hence, the "reasoning" for fee increases. Help me understand this please.

Actual trades on Linden Exchange with these fee increases (and in usual LL fashion): 

1. Limit Buy order @ 250/1 of L$100,000 cost USD $400, plus fees equalled USD $410.00 (btw, $10 is NOT the max fee of $9.99)

2. Limit Sell order @ 239/1 of L$100,000 paid USD $418.42, minus fees USD $403.76: a net LOSS of USD $6.24

3. The limit Buy order took 5 days to close, while the limit Sell order took 9 days. 

4. In other words, LL held my money for a total of 14 days, that they also trade for profit, so I could suffer a loss. But wait, let's look now to a HALF MILLION L$ TRADE using these fees...

 

a. A L$500,000 Limit Buy order @ 250/1 is USD $2,000, plus fee is USD $2,009.09 (assuming they stop skimming fractional pennies). A L$500,000 Limit Sell order @ 239/1 pays USD $2,092.06, minus fees is USD $2,018.84

b. Hold longer than 2 weeks and my profit is roughly USD $9.00 and you know they made more profit from my money than I did. When I mention "in usual LL fashion" what I point to is the continuing efforts of LL to make themselves out a winner at our expense. LL? If you wish to do right, and I don't believe that for a moment, then build something, invent something, DO anything but suck the life out of your user base.

c. I am through/finished with the Linden Exchange. Period. Thanks SO much @Reed Linden

[Coffee Pancake]

28 minutes ago, Scott1 Yedmore said:

c. I am through/finished with the Linden Exchange. Period. Thanks SO much @Reed Linden

Great news!

The Lindex is not a speculative plaything, the only winner is LL & Tilia in fees, and the entire endeavor serves as a sink taking money away from actual residents.

For a solid alternative, have you considered the wonderful world of seasonal / special edition LEGO?

 

[Scott1 Yedmore]

11 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Great news!

The Lindex is not a speculative plaything, the only winner is LL & Tilia in fees, and the entire endeavor serves as a sink taking money away from actual residents.

For a solid alternative, have you considered the wonderful world of seasonal / special edition LEGO?

 

I have no idea what that is, miss. Enlighten me please.

[Theresa Tennyson]

5 hours ago, Scott1 Yedmore said:

Actual trades on Linden Exchange with these fee increases (and in usual LL fashion): 

1. Limit Buy order @ 250/1 of L$100,000 cost USD $400, plus fees equalled USD $410.00 (btw, $10 is NOT the max fee of $9.99)

2. Limit Sell order @ 239/1 of L$100,000 paid USD $418.42, minus fees USD $403.76: a net LOSS of USD $6.24

3. The limit Buy order took 5 days to close, while the limit Sell order took 9 days. 

4. In other words, LL held my money for a total of 14 days, that they also trade for profit, so I could suffer a loss. But wait, let's look now to a HALF MILLION L$ TRADE using these fees...

 

a. A L$500,000 Limit Buy order @ 250/1 is USD $2,000, plus fee is USD $2,009.09 (assuming they stop skimming fractional pennies). A L$500,000 Limit Sell order @ 239/1 pays USD $2,092.06, minus fees is USD $2,018.84

b. Hold longer than 2 weeks and my profit is roughly USD $9.00 and you know they made more profit from my money than I did. When I mention "in usual LL fashion" what I point to is the continuing efforts of LL to make themselves out a winner at our expense. LL? If you wish to do right, and I don't believe that for a moment, then build something, invent something, DO anything but suck the life out of your user base.

c. I am through/finished with the Linden Exchange. Period. Thanks SO much @Reed Linden

If you've figured out that you can't make money speculating in Lindens then the system works exactly the way it's supposed to. Why in God's name would Linden Lab want you to be able to make money speculating in Lindens?

[Chic Aeon]

51 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If you've figured out that you can't make money speculating in Lindens then the system works exactly the way it's supposed to. Why in God's name would Linden Lab want you to be able to make money speculating in Lindens?

LOL.  Haven't really followed this thread but wanted to comment that "in the OLD days" (like fourteen years ago or so) there were a fair amount of people buying and selling linden dollars and (reportedly anyway) making money doing so.   

 

There was even a stock market -- and banks.   Many things were different then.   I never partook in those options.  I never even bought or sold linden dollars at a set price :D.  Sure there were some that LOST money also.  Not a lot different than corporeal life. 

 

 

[FairreLilette]

9 hours ago, Scott1 Yedmore said:

Actual trades on Linden Exchange with these fee increases (and in usual LL fashion): 

1. Limit Buy order @ 250/1 of L$100,000 cost USD $400, plus fees equalled USD $410.00 (btw, $10 is NOT the max fee of $9.99)

2. Limit Sell order @ 239/1 of L$100,000 paid USD $418.42, minus fees USD $403.76: a net LOSS of USD $6.24

3. The limit Buy order took 5 days to close, while the limit Sell order took 9 days. 

4. In other words, LL held my money for a total of 14 days, that they also trade for profit, so I could suffer a loss. But wait, let's look now to a HALF MILLION L$ TRADE using these fees...

 

a. A L$500,000 Limit Buy order @ 250/1 is USD $2,000, plus fee is USD $2,009.09 (assuming they stop skimming fractional pennies). A L$500,000 Limit Sell order @ 239/1 pays USD $2,092.06, minus fees is USD $2,018.84

b. Hold longer than 2 weeks and my profit is roughly USD $9.00 and you know they made more profit from my money than I did. When I mention "in usual LL fashion" what I point to is the continuing efforts of LL to make themselves out a winner at our expense. LL? If you wish to do right, and I don't believe that for a moment, then build something, invent something, DO anything but suck the life out of your user base.

c. I am through/finished with the Linden Exchange. Period. Thanks SO much @Reed Linden

There are tons of cryptocurrencies to speculate on, so you shouldn't have a need to complain.  LL is not the place to make money on speculating - use cyprtos and for real life the Forex.  Wild fluctuations in the value of the linden would cause chaos here.  

[Scott1 Yedmore]

I'll say that Phil is correct about 'contrary' on the previous page. Lot's of smart-#ss remarks in this group. Few facts but lots of remarks. 🙄

[Solar Legion]

Plenty of facts, such as the Lindex not being a stock market - at all. The days where one could make their fortune using third party exchanges are well and truly long past - deal with it.

[Solar Legion]

4 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

LOL.  Haven't really followed this thread but wanted to comment that "in the OLD days" (like fourteen years ago or so) there were a fair amount of people buying and selling linden dollars and (reportedly anyway) making money doing so.   

 

There was even a stock market -- and banks.   Many things were different then.   I never partook in those options.  I never even bought or sold linden dollars at a set price :D.  Sure there were some that LOST money also.  Not a lot different than corporeal life. 

 

 

Those "banks" were nothing more than pyramid schemes and said "stock markets" were not much better. The point of the Linden Exchange was never to facilitate "profit" (ala stock exchange) for the end user - that someone could at one time, means rather little.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Solar Legion

[Solar Legion]

14 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Plenty of facts, such as the Lindex not being a stock market - at all. The days where one could make their fortune using third party exchanges are well and truly long past - deal with it.

 

10 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Those "banks" were nothing more than pyramid schemes and said "stock markets" were not much better. The point of the Linden Exchange was never to facilitate "profit" (ala stock exchange) for the end user - that someone could at one time, means rather little.

Seeing as the following would need t be edited in to both of the above posts, I'll just respond to them to lump them together:

The current Sell and Cash Out system was implemented (kept from the existing exchange they absorbed really) to allow the end user to convert their Linden Dollars back into actual currency and then have the end result sent out (to a PayPal account or by other methods). It is not intended to be used in the manner one user on this very page seems to believe it is to be used - most simply aren't going to be buying Linden Dollars in bulk amounts to sit on them and then sell them at a later date/more beneficial "Sell" rate. Most are going to be taking proceeds from their business (or hobbies/what have you) and converting that before cashing out.

What at least one person appears to be looking for can be found in real life Stock Exchanges. I'd suggest using those if the intent is anything at all as they presented it to be - for them.

[Finite]

21 hours ago, Scott1 Yedmore said:

Actual trades on Linden Exchange with these fee increases (and in usual LL fashion): 

1. Limit Buy order @ 250/1 of L$100,000 cost USD $400, plus fees equalled USD $410.00 (btw, $10 is NOT the max fee of $9.99)

2. Limit Sell order @ 239/1 of L$100,000 paid USD $418.42, minus fees USD $403.76: a net LOSS of USD $6.24

3. The limit Buy order took 5 days to close, while the limit Sell order took 9 days. 

4. In other words, LL held my money for a total of 14 days, that they also trade for profit, so I could suffer a loss. But wait, let's look now to a HALF MILLION L$ TRADE using these fees...

 

a. A L$500,000 Limit Buy order @ 250/1 is USD $2,000, plus fee is USD $2,009.09 (assuming they stop skimming fractional pennies). A L$500,000 Limit Sell order @ 239/1 pays USD $2,092.06, minus fees is USD $2,018.84

b. Hold longer than 2 weeks and my profit is roughly USD $9.00 and you know they made more profit from my money than I did. When I mention "in usual LL fashion" what I point to is the continuing efforts of LL to make themselves out a winner at our expense. LL? If you wish to do right, and I don't believe that for a moment, then build something, invent something, DO anything but suck the life out of your user base.

c. I am through/finished with the Linden Exchange. Period. Thanks SO much @Reed Linden

Yeesh who buys lindens at 239? Seems there's millions of L's backed up at that rate waiting for instant buys to drop that low and you're upset it took 9 days to sell? Also, LL didn't hold onto your money. It wasn't yours anymore once you bought the Lindens.

L$239 / US$1.00

L$199,291,762

[Jaylinbridges]

I am surprised this thread is still running on.  Other than a few large linden buyers changing their buying habits, has anyone noticed the sky is falling yet?

Oh wait...  What's this dark object in my front yard, it seems to have a tiny star in it.  Must be from EEP.

Shouldn't we be discussing the next fee increase instead?

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Rowan Amore]

So basically, I shouldn't invest in Lindens to supplement my retirement income?  

[LittleMe Jewell]

21 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So basically, I shouldn't invest in Lindens to supplement my retirement income?  

 

Supplement hell, I was counting on it to fully cover retirement.

[Finite]

42 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So basically, I shouldn't invest in Lindens to supplement my retirement income?  

What’s funny is the exchange isn’t even meant to be used that way. With the scenario posted above he’d only be able to process the $9 proceeds for credit. The rest he could only buy more lindens with. So I guess if you want to earn $9 every 2 weeks, buy $2000 worth of lindens. At that rate it would take 9 years to get your money back.

 

Process credit (withdrawal)

Net proceeds from your sales of Linden Dollars remain as credit on your Second Life account, and this credit is automatically applied to your account fees as described above. If you do not wish to apply your Linden Dollar sales proceeds to your fees, you may withdraw this portion of your account credit through a real-world credit process. (See Process Credit) Note that you may only process credit due to net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars. Purchases of account credits and credits due to gift codes or other promotional account credits are nonrefundable, and may not be processed as a payment to you.

[Coffee Pancake]

Careful now, wouldn't want to be called a smart-#ss.

[Jaylinbridges]

5 hours ago, Finite said:

So I guess if you want to earn $9 every 2 weeks, buy $2000 worth of lindens. At that rate it would take 9 years to get your money back.

Earning $9 every 2 weeks with a $2000 investment is an annual interest rate of 11.7%

My bank pays me 0.10% annual interest.  Of course I have no risk with my bank.  

What Tilia needs is a Futures market, to give me some leverage.

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Careful now, wouldn't want to be called a smart-#ss.

You couldn't possibly be talking about anyone here.  😅😆😉