Buy Fee Change Discussion

[Rowan Amore]

7.5% is higher than the average sales tax in the US by about 2%.  That's how I've thought about the raise.  They're selling us something, Lindens.  Although, they won't be forwarding that money to their state, they will be paying their employees and hopefully, hiring more to do the work they've mentioned.  Who then in turn, pay state and income tax.

The company is still in a time of transition.  To expect things to be fixed, they need to generate revenue to pay those people.  

Yes, the streaming services do their raises in increments but they do still raise them.  If you decide it's too much, you cancel.  The last rate hike from Amazon was 20% but they also have a HUGE user base compared to LL.

Am I happy about the increase for SL?  Of course not but I still have a choice to pay or not.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[Evah Baxton]

2 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

If Crypto came to SL it'd ass***** (pardon the vulgarity, but that is what would happen) the economy to the point it'd collapse shortly after due to the fact that only those who had L$ before moving to crypto would be able to get anything.

As much as I tend to both lambast (and defend as well) the Lindens, I don't think anyone in the Financial department at Linden Lab is that stupid, and I'm sure as ***** certain that Upper Management isn't either.

What would be great (and probably terrible for LL somehow) would be to have the ability to buy L$ with crypto.

Mmmm mmm. That would be nice.

 

[Rathgrith027]

2 minutes ago, Evah Baxton said:

What would be great (and probably terrible for LL somehow) would be to have the ability to buy L$ with crypto.

Mmmm mmm. That would be nice.

 

I'd have no qualms with that, honestly.

[FairreLilette]

28 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

If Crypto came to SL it'd ass***** (pardon the vulgarity, but that is what would happen) the economy to the point it'd collapse shortly after due to the fact that only those who had L$ before moving to crypto would be able to get anything.

As much as I tend to both lambast (and defend as well) the Lindens, I don't think anyone in the Financial department at Linden Lab is that stupid, and I'm sure as ***** certain that Upper Management isn't either.

Awww, I see.  They'd buy it all up, but not sure they couldn't sell it.   I first saw SL on the TV years ago, about 2005, on the news.  They were on the news way back then because they had their own currency exchange and are a cryptocurrency already but their currency one has to earn either through creating or working in SL...yet in crypto mining can't one earn currency?   Not sure how far this will get as it's off topic.  Lindens already are a cryptocurrency, however.

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/linked/84736/ibm-patent-gaming-mmo-blockchain

IBM's Patent (excerpts from the article)

The patent, entitled "Gaming concensus protocol for blockchain," was awarded on November 10. First filed in 2018, the patent outlines examples by which a game's participants — particularly those in a massively multiplayer online (MMO) game — would participate in the ordering of transactions that make up the game's flow of information. Players would, in effect, be akin to bitcoin miners in that their hardware and software resources would be used to order transactions in blocks.

What's more, those peers could potentially get paid for contributing their resources to the game. As the document explains:

"In one embodiment, the consensus algorithm is provided as a service from the game network to any blockchain network, thus blockchain networks can delegate consensus to a distributed network of game clients within the gaming peers. In the preferred embodiment, for each transaction processed by the massively multiplayer online gaming network, a fee would apply. These fees may be distributed between the participants of the consensus round (i.e. participants/users associated with each gaming peer ) as an incentive, be used to maintain the network infrastructure or any other purpose that serves the gaming network and the players."

[Rowan Amore]

Second Life virtual goods are priced in Linden dollars, a virtual currency fully integrated with the Second Life platform. Introduced long before 2009, the Linden dollar is not a blockchain-based cryptocurrency.

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/second-life-creator-uses-blockchain-tech-enhance-new-vr-gaming-experience

[Rathgrith027]

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

Lindens already are a cryptocurrency, however.

The Linden Dollar is not a Cryptocurrency. It is a Fiat currency, much like the US Dollar.

The Linden Dollar is guaranteed a US Dollar value (2,000 = 10~ USD) by Linden Lab, much like the US dollar's value is guaranteed by the US Federal Reserve - both of which are relative to their market value and can be regulated by withdrawing and adding SLD/USD from circulation, and can do so at will.

Cryptocurrencies utilize a blockchain and aren't guaranteed by any entity and are valued based on market demand. Second Life does not utilize a blockchain in the LindeX in any fashion, nor can Lindens be mined in any capacity. Cryptocurrencies do not have a governing authority by their nature, meaning that the currency only has crypto withdrawn from circulation if it is either not spent or lost in one fashion or another. That and most if not all cryptocurrencies have a maximum possible amount of currency in existance by either computational or constructed limits, meaning that at one point there will be no more new cryptocurrency of a certain type (BTC, LTC, ETH).

[Solar Legion]

Oh for .... While the Linden Dollar certainly is not a Cryptocurrency do not make the mistake of trying to pretend it is anything more than a Token that Linden Lab allows the users to both buy and sell. They're glorified Chuck-E-Cheese tokens that the store decided they'd buy back from you.

[Rathgrith027]

5 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Oh for .... While the Linden Dollar certainly is not a Cryptocurrency do not make the mistake of trying to pretend it is anything more than a Token that Linden Lab allows the users to both buy and sell. They're glorified Chuck-E-Cheese tokens that the store decided they'd buy back from you.

Lemme guess, you still think the US dollar is backed by gold.

No, it's backed by literally nothing but the authority that mints it - Linden Lab, the US Federal Reserve, Chuck-E-Cheese, etc. That's the literal definition of a fiat currency - it has no intrinsic value whatsoever - the only value it has comes from the authority that mints it guaranteeing that it actually is worth something, as well as those who buy and sell with it.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Rathgrith027
Revised

[FairreLilette]

7 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

The Linden Dollar is not a Cryptocurrency. It is a Fiat currency, much like the US Dollar.

Ok.  I read an article that a cryptocurrency is a cryptocurrency because it may not actually really be something someone really owns, and the article went on to say, "but Second Life has been selling goods that the residents do not really own" as a way that the article was defining a cryptocurrency.  There are articles all over about MMO's that are going this route with cryptocurrency mining.  I'm not sure what differentiates one from another.  

[Evah Baxton]

30 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Ok.  I read an article that a cryptocurrency is a cryptocurrency because it may not actually really be something someone really owns, and the article went on to say, "but Second Life has been selling goods that the residents do not really own" as a way that the article was defining a cryptocurrency.  There are articles all over about MMO's that are going this route with cryptocurrency mining.  I'm not sure what differentiates one from another.  

They are different.

Blockchain is the idea that one new thing references the ID of the thing that happened before it. One long chain of events. Crypto blockchains are chains of transactions that are verified by multiple (hundreds) of systems which all agree that a transaction is true and uncorrupted. Creating a new verified block is what is called "mining."

Selling goods that residents don't really own is simply that simple. Selling virtual goods that can pass in and out of existence isn't really a blockchain.

If anything, creating a "blockchain" for L$ purchases could actually add value to the ownership of a virtual product since the verification would happen outside of LL by hundreds of "miners" and be more transparent.

HOWEVER ... it would make things more complicated and miners would start asking for fees (gas) and holy ... it just wouldn't be fun anymore.

Hopefully this doesn't happen without lots of planning.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, Rathgrith027 said:

No, it's backed by literally nothing but the authority that mints it - Linden Lab, the US Federal Reserve, Chuck-E-Cheese, etc. That's the literal definition of a fiat currency - it has no intrinsic value whatsoever - ...............

You're missing the small part about currencies being the purview of governments. Linden Lab and Chuck-E-Cheese can make all the tradable tokens they like, just so long as the government allows them to.

[Doc Carling]

7 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

There were 3 discussions going all about the same thing which was silly regardless.of whether they were off topic or not.  So 2 threads were locked, not 1.

Sure. Well, I'm ok with the fee changes. In the worst case I have to pay 2 or 3 USD more. That won't kill me and I don't mind to contribute a little, if it helps to improve SL. Now back to crypto mining. 😀

Edited April 22, 2021 by Doc Carling

[LittleMe Jewell]

9 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

I read an article that a cryptocurrency is a cryptocurrency because it may not actually really be something someone really owns, and the article went on to say, "but Second Life has been selling goods that the residents do not really own" as a way that the article was defining a cryptocurrency. 

I read it on the internet, so it must be true.  That's your reasoning?

Edited April 22, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[FairreLilette]

12 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I read it on the internet, so it must be true.  That's your reasoning?

No, not really, as I stated in my post "there are articles one can read", which I'm really saying too long, didn't read or just too many articles.  If others want to read about what's going on with MMO's and cryptocurrency, they can.  

I'd have to say that Paypal has probably been the biggest supporter of the linden and owns a lot of lindens, however.  So Paypal has an "interest" here. 

There is also a Wiki on the Linden.  

Edited April 22, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Solar Legion]

9 hours ago, Rathgrith027 said:

Lemme guess, you still think the US dollar is backed by gold.

No, it's backed by literally nothing but the authority that mints it - Linden Lab, the US Federal Reserve, Chuck-E-Cheese, etc. That's the literal definition of a fiat currency - it has no intrinsic value whatsoever - the only value it has comes from the authority that mints it guaranteeing that it actually is worth something, as well as those who buy and sell with it.

Oooh, swing and a major miss on that.

Perhaps you might try to go to any shop/retailer/anywhere that is not Second Life (or related to it in some way) and try to purchase goods using Linden Dollars. Let us know how well that goes.

No, you don't get to convert it through Linden Lab first.

ETA: Owing to prior experience with those who have tried to rationalize similar views of the Linden Dollar, I'm terminating this 'discourse' before it goes further than this. It is not worth the time.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Solar Legion

[LittleMe Jewell]

31 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I'd have to say that Paypal has probably been the biggest supporter of the linden and owns a lot of lindens, however.  So Paypal has an "interest" here. 

PayPal does not own any lindens.  The ONLY people that own any lindens - besides LL - are accounts INSIDE SL.  Outside of SL, lindens do not exist and thus are not owned by any person or entity or business.

Edited April 22, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[FairreLilette]

9 hours ago, Evah Baxton said:

They are different.

Blockchain is the idea that one new thing references the ID of the thing that happened before it. One long chain of events. Crypto blockchains are chains of transactions that are verified by multiple (hundreds) of systems which all agree that a transaction is true and uncorrupted. Creating a new verified block is what is called "mining."

Selling goods that residents don't really own is simply that simple. Selling virtual goods that can pass in and out of existence isn't really a blockchain.

If anything, creating a "blockchain" for L$ purchases could actually add value to the ownership of a virtual product since the verification would happen outside of LL by hundreds of "miners" and be more transparent.

HOWEVER ... it would make things more complicated and miners would start asking for fees (gas) and holy ... it just wouldn't be fun anymore.

Hopefully this doesn't happen without lots of planning.

It's not something I would ever be interested in so am really reading about it "cold" or "newbie".  

I was simply wondering why some MMO's are doing it.  What is the criteria?  

[FairreLilette]

1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

PayPal does not own any lindens.  The ONLY people that own any lindens - besides LL - are accounts INSIDE SL.  Outside of SL, lindens do not exist and thus are not owned by any person or entity or business.

LL cannot give people money in exchange for lindens; Paypal does that.  So, Paypal gives people money for nothing?

[Solar Legion]

PayPal does not do a single thing beyond sending your USD to Linden Lab and receiving said USD from Linden Lab.

[Rowan Amore]

10 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

LL cannot give people money in exchange for lindens; Paypal does that.  So, Paypal gives people money for nothing?

You may choose to credit your US dollar balance via PayPal or Skrill. To process a credit transfer, go to Process Credit.  For more information about your options and limitations, see Account Balance and the Tilia FAQ.

You send RL money to PayPal ffs.

[LittleMe Jewell]

9 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

LL cannot give people money in exchange for lindens; Paypal does that.  So, Paypal gives people money for nothing?

Not quite.. 

LL/Tilia asks PayPal for money from the person's account and PayPal gives LL/Tilia the money.  What LL/Tilia does with that money does not matter to PayPal (as long as you have authorized it).  LL/Tilia sometimes uses the money for buying L$ - they sometimes use the money to pay for a person's monthly tier bill - they sometimes use it to pay for a person's Premium account bill.

 

[Rowan Amore]

[LittleMe Jewell]

14 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

LL cannot give people money in exchange for lindens; Paypal does that.  So, Paypal gives people money for nothing?

So, if you use a credit card as your payment source, are you thinking that your credit card company owns lindens?

[Rowan Amore]

17 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

LL cannot give people money in exchange for lindens; Paypal does that.  So, Paypal gives people money for nothing?

You sell your Ls within the SL LindeX for USD.  You then transfer those USD to your PayPal account.

[FairreLilette]

9 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

So, if you use a credit card as your payment source, are you thinking that your credit card company owns lindens?

No.  I'm wondering what this means below from the Wiki...  If one cannot redeem through Linden Lab, then who is redeeming into real money when one cashes out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Second_Life

The virtual world Second Life has its own economy and a virtual token referred to as Linden Dollars (L$). In the SL economy, users (called "residents") buy from and sell to one another directly, using the Linden, which is a closed-loop virtual token for use only within the Second Life platform. Linden Dollars have no monetary value and are not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab. A resident with a surplus of Linden Dollars earned via a Second Life business or experiential play can request to refund their Linden Dollar surplus to PayPal. This economy is independent of the price of the game, which users pay to Linden Lab, not to each other.