Buy Fee Change Discussion

[Anna Amore]

LL are digging their own grave by raising the fee

You're making it harder for people to buy lindens, especially those who live in developing countries

Did you really have to do this in the middle of a pandemic? Bad move

Edited April 16, 2021 by Anna Bunny

[Mollymews]

looks like the Second Life middle class are in $19.88 to $133.20

the lower class, those under $19.87, pay the most regressive fee rate. And the upper class, those over $133.87, pay the least regressive

why I am not surprised by this

i would have thought that the minimum fee would have been reduced at least a little

[bigmoe Whitfield]

14 minutes ago, Anna Bunny said:

LL are digging their own grave by raising the fee

You're making it harder for people to buy lindens, especially those who live in developing countries

Did you really have to do this in the middle of a pandemic? Bad move

SL has to make money to continue running,  so you believe this is a bad move,   I see it as a move so they continue to operate and not dig into their bottom line,   you need to go own a company where you learn that fee's will eat you alive,  unless you pass them along to the consumer,   I know first hand what fee's can do and I know they had to be passed along or I would not be in business.  

[Anna Amore]

1 minute ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

SL has to make money to continue running,  so you believe this is a bad move,   I see it as a move so they continue to operate and not dig into their bottom line,   you need to go own a company where you learn that fee's will eat you alive,  unless you pass them along to the consumer,   I know first hand what fee's can do and I know they had to be passed along or I would not be in business.  

don't expect me to buy huge amounts of lindens anytime soon and it's not just me .. let's see how they're gonna make money like this

[Scott1 Yedmore]

44 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I wondered the same. Every virtual server I've ever paid for has always been cheaper than dedicated hardware. 

Yes. And there's more to the ROI calculations - namely, need to autoscale because of load? AWS is waaaay good at it, and, you pay only what you use, whereas in a DC you pay for 24/7 resources whether you use them or not. You pay your staff managing your datacenter - AWS factors those costs in. Economy of scale. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Scott1 Yedmore

[Jaylinbridges]

3 hours ago, Scott1 Yedmore said:

Yes. And there's more to the ROI calculations - namely, need to autoscale because of load? AWS is waaaay good at it, and, you pay only what you use, whereas in a DC you pay for 24/7 resources whether you use them or not. You pay your staff managing your datacenter - AWS factors those costs in. Economy of scale. 

The old LL data center in Arizona had expenses of electric power, and a small staff to maintain the server farm. There was no per server fee, since all the servers purchased in the past had been fully depreciated.  At least this is what Oz Linden, VP of Engineering said before he retired in February this year.

AWS charges per use which he said was greater than LL's prior costs when in house by quite a lot.  AWS did not save LL money, and will only be more economical if SL expands capacity and membership.  The savings occur when new capacity is needed, since there is no more need for capital investment in the hardware.  But at least for now, AWS is costing LL more than their aging in house servers.  This is ignoring all the things AWS has broken, and is costing more LL engineering ($$) time to solve.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Jaylinbridges
Corrected SL old server location. (I knew that too)

[Chic Aeon]

15 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

AWS charges per use which he said was greater than LL's prior costs when in house by quite a lot.  AWS did not save LL money, and will only be more economical if SL expands capacity and membership.  The savings occur when new capacity is needed, since there is no more need for capital investment in the hardware.  But at least for now, AWS is costing LL more than their aging in house servers.  This is ignoring all the things AWS has broken, and is costing more LL engineering ($$) time to solve.

But there was also the issue of the "aging" servers. Ebbe talked about that more than two years ago when the move was announced. Many of those servers would have needed to be replaced apparently -- computers don't last forever. That potential cost had to be figured in.  So it certainly seems -- from the outside looking in -- that it was a realistic decision. The promise of better connections around the globe hasn't happened, but it may :D.   

[shireena1]

Well, like everyone here, thanx for the heads up.

I guess i am lucky in the fact that my subscription for membership is due the day before this change happens. 😁

Edited April 16, 2021 by shireena1
added a pic.

[Jaylinbridges]

I am waiting for the next shoe to drop:  The elimination of the Basic free account entirely, after the usual "one month free trial" offer.  PIOF will be required to pay dollars or currency equivalent to SL to log into SL.   A fee less than Premium hopefully, with a reduced or no stipend payback.  This should cut SL active membership to at least half of present as most of the Alts drop out.  But that won't look good when claiming millions of members - just count prior accounts as potential pay accounts even if 3/4 of the inactive accounts are the same people, or dead people.

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Jaylinbridges]

24 minutes ago, shireena1 said:

I guess i am lucky in the fact that my subscription for membership is due the day before this change happens

Your membership is charged in dollars, not Lindens, so this Linden purchase fee should not affect you.  Unless you buy Lindens of course.

 

[JanuarySwan]

26 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I am waiting for the next shoe to drop:  The elimination of the Basic free account entirely, after the usual "one month free trial" offer.  PIOF will be required to pay dollars or currency equivalent to SL to log into SL.   A fee less than Premium hopefully, with a reduced or no stipend payback.  This should cut SL active membership to at least half of present as most of the Alts drop out.  But that won't look good when claiming millions of members - just count prior accounts as potential pay accounts even if half the inactive accounts are dead people.

 

I hope not.  I do not like automatic withdrawals from my bank.  But, if it does, what's next...bitcoin mining hits the grid and everyone will need to buy $10 to $15 thousand dollar graphics cards?

There is no change in my fees.  I usually buy about 10,000 linden a month.  At 1.49 twice for 5000 x 2 or 3 dollars for 10000 once, it's the same and the same as it ever was.

Q: How will this impact the cost of my Linden Dollar purchases?

A: It depends on the size of your Linden Dollar purchase in each transaction. We worked to ensure that most casual purchases will see no change at all.

For example, smaller Linden Dollar purchases (roughly equivalent to about $20 USD or less*) will see no change in cost as the new $1.49 minimum charge is equivalent to the cost of the existing flat fee. 

As another example, a $40 USD purchase of approximately L$10,000*  would be charged a $3 “buy fee” (equal to 7.5% of $40). 

For larger Linden Dollar purchases (approximately $139 or higher*), the 7.5% fee will cap out at $9.99 maximum in a single transaction.

Edited April 16, 2021 by JanuarySwan

[Scylla Rhiadra]

22 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I am waiting for the next shoe to drop:  The elimination of the Basic free account entirely, after the usual "one month free trial" offer.  PIOF will be required to pay dollars or currency equivalent to SL to log into SL.   A fee less than Premium hopefully, with a reduced or no stipend payback.  This should cut SL active membership to at least half of present as most of the Alts drop out.  But that won't look good when claiming millions of members - just count prior accounts as potential pay accounts even if 3/4 of the inactive accounts are the same people, or dead people.

 

This is not going to happen -- unless LL is mildly suicidal -- because basic free accounts, while not contributing directly to LL's coffers, are the engine that keeps the economy alive.

Lose those consumers, and you'll not only see a massive drop in purchases of L$s, but also an exodus of creators.

And if that happens, SL starts to fall apart very quickly indeed.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, JanuarySwan said:

I hope not.  I do not like automatic withdrawals from my bank.  But, if it does, what's next...bitcoin mining hits the grid and everyone will need to buy $10 to $15 thousand dollar graphics cards?

There is no change in my fees.  I usually buy about 10,000 linden a month.  At 1.49 twice for 5000 x 2 or 3 dollars for 10000 once, it's the same and the same as it ever was.

This is pretty much exactly my situation. This is going to cost me, even if I don't change my buying habits, about $1 a month.

That's not to dismiss it as meaningless: it could impact quite negatively on those subsisting on lower incomes or in places where the money doesn't stretch as far. I wish it weren't happening, and I'm not sure it is a wise move, long term. But I don't see this as exactly apocalyptic.

[Solar Legion]

Why is it that almost every time some fee change (among others) is made, someone always has to chime in with the absolutely ludicrous idea that Linden Lab will do away with the free Basic accounts ....

They have had ample time and opportunity to do so and simply have not. They're here to stay and have been since June 6th, 2006.

Do kindly stop trying to cause a panic.

[Jaylinbridges]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

That's not to dismiss it as meaningless: it could impact quite negatively on those subsisting on lower incomes or in places where the money doesn't stretch as far. I wish it weren't happening, and I'm not sure it is a wise move, long term. But I don't see this as exactly apocalyptic.

It's a small hit to the middle class, just like RL taxes.  Mainand tier is not charged any fee with a connected paypal or credit card with a balance available.  Private island land (rent from land companies) is often charged in lindens though, so that will increase land costs somewhat.  But larger land barons also will accept dollars from your paypal directly, so you can avoid the linden purchase fee that way.

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Jaylinbridges]

6 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Do kindly stop trying to cause a panic.

Just doing my part to keep the thread active

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

it could impact quite negatively on those subsisting on lower incomes or in places where the money doesn't stretch as far.

Actually, the ones on lower incomes are likely the ones that only by their L$ in $10-15 batches, thus there will be no change for them.  LL did say that it is the "least number of transactions" that will be impacted.  

It is more likely the next tier of folks are the ones that will get hit the hardest -- the ones that typically buy their L$ in $20-50 batches.  Those that typically buy in larger batches are the most likely to be able to shift their purchasing such that all L$ buys are greater than the $133.20 amount and thus will ultimately pay less than the 7.5% amount.

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Skylar Littlepaws]

Hi Reed.  I'm kind of curious....I understand that Second Life (Linden Labs) wants to improve on the infrastructure and make the virtual world great.  I want to see that happen because this world is a lot of fun and I enjoy it a lot and many others do, but do you think right now with what's going on is the right time to be changing the fee?  I mean there's still a lot of people who are unemployed due to the pandemic and we are still a crisis.  I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but I think and believe the timing for it isn't the right time right now to be making these changes.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

the ones on lower incomes are likely the ones that only by their L$ in $10-15 batches

You are likely right, although there are endless permutations. There are people I know who live on fixed incomes in RL, and who spend far more than I do in SL because, for a variety of possible reasons, the platform is their main source of entertainment and socialization.

But yes, I'm sure that on the balance what you say is mostly true. And if so, then, again, this isn't really very apocalyptic, although it's sure to hit some harder -- i.e., have more impact on their RL finances -- than others.

[JanuarySwan]

21 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Just doing my part to keep the thread active

 

It's cool.  I'm not panicking but I really would hate it if LL went all Premium.   I don't really see a need for it as it allows others to rent off some of their land.  If it went all Premium, then I'd think LL would own most of the land with the house being included for instance.  

[Janet Voxel]

I mean at the end of the day, if you're on a tight budget you'll just adjust the amount you pay and get a little less bang for your buck.

Say I buy $40 worth of L$ now, if I was on a fixed income and that's all I had. With the changes, I'd just do the $37.22 instead, it would probably amount to a couple hundred lindens or a couple of tchotchkes I probably could do without anyway. I'd still be spending the same amount $40. *shrug* If its truly going to improving SL, I'll eat that happily.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

Just to point out, the old data center was only in Scottsdale,Arizona.    after they shut down the others they had around.   it was the only one left.  until uplift, now it's gone.

[animats]

At present we are:

• Investing in our infrastructure to further improve speed and cadence of updates.
• Overhauling the onboarding experience for the newest Residents.
• UI cleanup.
• Developing new marketing initiatives and entertainment partnerships to fuel growth.
• Preparing for SL18B
• Less glamorous but no less crucial is our ongoing and growing work to ensure compliance with multiple regulatory requirements.

Well, at least we're hearing some management goals from LL, for the first time in a long time. Let's all check back in 3 months to see how LL does on this.

[Jaylinbridges]

Inara Pey's web blog has an interesting discussion of the AWS servers when SL was moving to the AWS cloud back in November.

https://modemworld.me/2020/11/19/ll-confirms-second-life-regions-now-all-on-aws/

They are all located in Oregon at the present time. (We have banned all up to date Big Maps here for security reasons - the real reason the Big Map doesn't work.)   *

 

* or not.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Scott1 Yedmore]

5 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The old LL data center in the Bay area had expenses of electric power, and a small staff to maintain the server farm. There was no per server fee, since all the servers purchased in the past had been fully depreciated.  At least this is what Oz Linden, VP of Engineering said before he retired in February this year.

AWS charges per use which he said was greater than LL's prior costs when in house by quite a lot.  AWS did not save LL money, and will only be more economical if SL expands capacity and membership.  The savings occur when new capacity is needed, since there is no more need for capital investment in the hardware.  But at least for now, AWS is costing LL more than their aging in house servers.  This is ignoring all the things AWS has broken, and is costing more LL engineering ($$) time to solve.

 

 

 

 

You write as though you're intimate with LL processes. Is this so?

Datacenter == hot aisle cooling and cold aisle ventilation, so let's wager about 30-35% of total cost; then there is the IT equipment - Cisco is one company that will stop supporting their older gear altogether, forcing a forklift-like overhaul to you networking infrastructure (they will offer a support contract on some aging gear for nearly what the gear originally cost, which is a recurring cost); you mentioned power.. okay let's go with that for just a sec... you pay for the delivery of city utility power... if your dc is full then your electrical cost is running at all-time highs, whereas if it's half full, you're paying to cool empty space... but there isn't just city utility power here - perhaps outside the building you have a concrete slab with a 5 mW diesel generator ready to provide emergency power to your dc... your customers; underneath that slab is a fuel tank carrying enough fuel to power that generator for 3..? 5..? 10 days..? Then the generator feeds into a bank of UPSs inside, which all go to one or more ATS switches (Automatic Transfer Switch) that in turn routes power into your electrical distribution that powers your dc. All of this and *any* modifications require permits, inspections and approvals, including Cat6E/fiber networking runs, which is another topic. Support contracts with one or more companies to come out and fix your infrastructure whenever it breaks is often an overlooked piece of the TCO of running your own datacenter, and those can be extremely expensive, ESPECIALLY on LLs "aging in house servers", you wrote. I equally find it laughable that hosting 30K-50K+ users, around the clock, was the result of magic conjured up by merely a"small maintenance" team sitting around watching the blinking lights of aging, FULLY depreciated servers.

Networking as  I mentioned is yet another topic. There is all of that infrastructure that you also must maintain with the help of all kinds of support contracts, but that isn't all. Your network does not exist in a vacume - you PEER with other networking providers, which involves nominal charges until you start peering with top companies like Level 3, or your backhaul traffic required you to hold subscriptions to backbone services... In other words, networking is a far cry away from wiring up your home router and even that is merely an interface to an ISP that requires monthly, recurring charges. As does the RBOCs, or the Regional Bell Operating Companies, in your area (a snap for San Francisco - what, the honest Pacific Bell in the bay area?).

You can see where this is going and unless you've worked in the industry as I have for 38 years, you really would brush off my earlier comment as arrogantly as you did without telling us your level of expertise and intimacy with LL processes. Now, I'm going to log in to SL to do things AWS no longer raises concerns for LL about. And AWS servers are BLAZINGLY fast and new.

Cheers.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Scott1 Yedmore