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New FS Viewer...6.4.13...Looks Like BLEEEEEEEP!


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There are now 3 versions out.  The next one to go will be the final pre EEP version.  As they "plan" to do quarterly releases, I updated also instead of waiting until the last moment.  We'll all have to eventually so i figured what the heck.  Might as well.

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I work on Catznip with @Kitty Barnett (who is also on the Firestorm team). Our goal is to take the Linden viewer and add features with a more thoughtful take. We don't import code from other viewers (

/me hurriedly puts her phone down. What? WHAT? Don't look at me like that!

That one did come up in the search and - from what I can see - is not exactly related to Microsoft in any real way. it is a developer attempting to cash in on the Microsoft name while offering what am

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9 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

looks like she is covered in a sheet of plastic or underwater.

I have posted it on page 3 already. Perhaps you missed that?
The rendering of specular maps is broken in the current FS viewer, as it is in the current LL release viewer. Specularity is blown out in these viewers.

A fixed version is the LMR5 RC viewer. https://releasenotes.secondlife.com/viewer/6.4.18.557797.html

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16 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Because the pictures are smaller now and you need to click on them to enlarge them.

Let me put a close-up of the same pics in a smaller area and you should see the lines I'm talking about without clicking on the picture itself.    

FS screenshot #1   LL screenshot #2  (both cropped from same photos in this thread.)

Yes, I can see the difference in the enlarged pics. I was looking at the pics as they were displayed in the thread, and I was thinking, "What's wrong with them. They look fine to me". I was also looking for lines in the legs, not stepped edges, but I do now see what you mean. I haven't yet spotted any marching ants lookalikes though lol.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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Firestorm 6.4.13 looks just fine for me.  I've been using it since it became available and am certainly not seeing any of the issues posted in this topic.  I don't know what is going on with the OP's setup though.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Yes, I can see the difference in the enlarged pics. I was looking at the pics as they were displayed in the thread, and I was thinking, "What's wrong with them. They look fine to me". I was also looking for lines in the legs, not stepped edges, but I do now see what you mean. I haven't yet spotted any marching ants lookalikes though lol.

I said at first like static marching ants...the marching ants thought came to my mind because these lines are kind of shiny in the viewer with a kind of reflection that cannot be captured in a photo, although what it's doing to the necklace in the photos is the best it can capture but with Selene's suggestion to put the aliasing up, it's a bit better with the "ant" thing but not the necklace and lots of other things.  I'd like to get back to work though.  It's been days of a non-workable viewer.

I don't know what to do.  

4 hours ago, arton Rotaru said:

I have posted it on page 3 already. Perhaps you missed that?
The rendering of specular maps is broken in the current FS viewer, as it is in the current LL release viewer. Specularity is blown out in these viewers.

A fixed version is the LMR5 RC viewer. https://releasenotes.secondlife.com/viewer/6.4.18.557797.html

I saw this but didn't have time to respond.  I will check it out.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Firestorm 6.4.13 looks just fine for me.  I've been using it since it became available and am certainly not seeing any of the issues posted in this topic.  I don't know what is going on with the OP's setup though.

This is puzzling because if it were a big problem, I would think there would be more people saying they have similar to me.  But, what's further puzzling, is LL viewer is okay on MIDDAY and no lines or weird reflective lines.  

The only somewhat similar problem there seems to be with EEP is perhaps with certain AMD graphics.  The AMD graphic problem was spoken about in a thread about the first EEP viewer in December.  Now Rowan has AMD and has no problem.  Lyssa, in this thread, says she has AMD and it somehow "fixed itself".  I followed two steps Lyssa did to try to unbug it myself for the AMD problem but it's not fixing on mine yet.  It's still giving my avatar jagged legs and weird lines on the chairs - see chair to my left by the seat meets the wood area.  This is me logging in this morning and it's still bleep.  I cannot work with a viewer like this and I don't know what to do other than install that viewer that supposedly does not have broken specular. 

I just logged in and with bump and shiny and materials on and with bump and shiny and materials off, it's still those lines and weird reflection lines on my furniture.  

I was wondering, and it's a long shot, if I need a clean install because something is corrupted...?  This is driving me nuts. 

Screenshot (234).png

Edited by FairreLilette
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No idea, I doubt the specular issue is causing your problem though otherwise everyone on this viewer would be noticing it.  The jaggies definitely look like anti-aliasing problems to me.  The 512 texture buffer size would only cause texture thrashing, not texture quality problems.  Don't know why latest FS isn't picking up your card memory properly though.
As others have said, you will notice environment differences because of EEP, nothing you can do about that - this is the new reality, sometimes EEP gives good results, sometimes not.  Often it is too dark for some people.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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18 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

problem

Can you afford a new graphics card?  I had either an ATI  or AMD card, can't remember which one but it was a fairly old one, and switched to Nvidia -- I was amazed at how much better everything looked.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Can you afford a new graphics card?  I had either an ATI  or AMD card, can't remember which one but it was a fairly old one, and switched to Nvidia -- I was amazed at how much better everything looked.

I wasn't planning on it, no.   And, my state is not fully open until June 15th as far as I know right now.  

 

28 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

It's not a viewer issue. It is a hardware issue. Graphics. But what do I know. I just owned and operated a pc shop (repairs and whiteboxes) and spent over 5 years on the FS support team.

Yeah, it's a Graphics problem but it seems to occur on certain AMD chips on FS while not so on LL viewer with materials off.  My graphics are fine on LL viewer without materials but with materials not so good; however, on FS - none works at this time.   So, it's puzzling. 

The only other possible thing is it's something Chic said in that I didn't back up my settings possibly.  I don't know how to restore the settings.  I have tried what Lyssa did with the debugging for the AMD - it worked for her but not for me.

Edited by FairreLilette
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53 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I wasn't planning on it, no.   And, my state is not fully open until June 15th as far as I know right now.  

 

Yeah, it's a Graphics problem but it seems to occur on certain AMD chips on FS while not so on LL viewer with materials off.  My graphics are fine on LL viewer without materials but with materials not so good; however, on FS - none works at this time.   So, it's puzzling. 

The only other possible thing is it's something Chic said in that I didn't back up my settings possibly.  I don't know how to restore the settings.  I have tried what Lyssa did with the debugging for the AMD - it worked for her but not for me.

I'm on my laptop because my graphics card (NVidia) in my desktop took more than a year to get to the point where I can no  longer use the pc. I have been troubleshooting the issues that long trying to find the problem. And I'm still only 99% certain it's the GPU and not the harddrive dying or the OS being corrupted. They do get that way over time and mine has never been restored in the 5 or 6 years since I bought the pc new. That is something I have rarely needed to do in the more than 20 years I've been online. That isn't counting all the years I used a computer before ever going online.

It's called process of elimination and that is how you have to troubleshoot pc issues. Once you eliminate a possibility you don't keep going back to it and trying to see if that is what is wrong. 

I would recommend trying to up the antialiasing a tad more but keep in mind the higher the number, the slower your viewer will run. You just have to keep changing the setting(s) until you find the one that works best with your computer. Which is what you need to do with any software. Once you have your settings set then you can make the backup and use it to restore your settings the next time you need to install or reinstall the viewer. It won't  backup all settings but it backs up the most used ones.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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36 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I'm on my laptop because my graphics card (NVidia) in my desktop took more than a year to get to the point where I can no  longer use the pc. I have been troubleshooting the issues that long trying to find the problem. And I'm still only 99% certain it's the GPU and not the harddrive dying or the OS being corrupted. They do get that way over time and mine has never been restored in the 5 or 6 years since I bought the pc new. That is something I have rarely needed to do in the more than 20 years I've been online. That isn't counting all the years I used a computer before ever going online.

It's called process of elimination and that is how you have to troubleshoot pc issues. Once you eliminate a possibility you don't keep going back to it and trying to see if that is what is wrong. 

I would recommend trying to up the antialiasing a tad more but keep in mind the higher the number, the slower your viewer will run. You just have to keep changing the setting(s) until you find the one that works best with your computer. Which is what you need to do with any software. Once you have your settings set then you can make the backup and use it to restore your settings the next time you need to install or reinstall the viewer. It won't  backup all settings but it backs up the most used ones.

After almost 10 years on and off with FS, I'm making a switch to the LL viewer because it looks fine (if not using materials) and I need to get back to work.  I will try again at a later time to see if specular is better in either viewer and what's up with all that issue.  

Screenshot below in LL viewer shows at least it looks okay and I can go back to work for now. 

Screenshot (240).png

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16 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Okay, thanks...I need time to read that as my ex used to do this stuff...I'm not sure what to do...it's Greek to me but I did find out I have a 5300 series and at least got that far.

I feel like this viewer is more for intermediate and advanced.  I'm having a helluva time at it and I'm not a newbie.  But, then again, many say newbies will go on the LL viewer which does seem easier but not those who are returning.  Those returning may go direct to FS.  However, what I've heard is the problem may be with AMD although Rowan says no.  So, that means certain AMD possibly.

But, still, okay this next picture is Nan's Optimal Prim and Skin which is usually way to bright for me and my monitor is already on low brightness at about 45%, and it looks really blow out and like she just got out of the water even though I have materials in the CATWA hud very low to almost off it's so low in the Catwa hud.  I didn't turn on shadows, I didn't think I needed them here.  However, on Annan Adored, it's same, looks like she is covered in a sheet of plastic or underwater.

 

Screenshot (225).png

AMD has 5300 series CPU and GPU. Are you sure that's the GPU? You haven't provided the hardware info from Help -> About Firestorm.

From one of the screenshots I can see Texture Memory Buffer is set to 512MB and apparently it's maximum for you because you can't enable Dynamic Texture Memory which is available to GPUs with more than 512MB memory...This is strange because AMD RX 5300 series GPU have 3GB memory therefore the option should be available to you.

You either don't have RX 5300 series GPU or you are running Firestorm through the integrated CPU's graphics processor. Right click on Firestorm's icon and see if there's "run with graphics processor" option in the context menu, if yes, Select AMD/Nvidia.

Or you do have RX 5300 series but drivers are screwed up.

Here's how to get the hardware info. You may just copy/paste CPU: and Graphics Card segments.

image.png.538fda0776efdc803aae3297a8db1f

P.S. Dynamic Texture Memory is a Firestorm feature added in 6.4.13, it's possible the issue is there if they have made some other code changes related to Texture memory.

Edited by Ati Thei
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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Ati Thei said:

AMD has 5300 series CPU and GPU. Are you sure that's the GPU? You haven't provided the hardware info from Help -> About Firestorm.

From one of the screenshots I can see Texture Memory Buffer is set to 512MB and apparently it's maximum for you because you can't enable Dynamic Texture Memory which is available to GPUs with more than 512MB memory...This is strange because AMD RX 5300 series GPU have 3GB memory therefore the option should be available to you.

You either don't have RX 5300 series GPU or you are running Firestorm through the integrated CPU's graphics processor. Right click on Firestorm's icon and see if there's "run with graphics processor" option in the context menu, if yes, Select AMD/Nvidia.

Or you do have RX 5300 series but drivers are screwed up.

Here's how to get the hardware info. You may just copy/paste CPU: and Graphics Card segments.

image.png.538fda0776efdc803aae3297a8db1f

P.S. Dynamic Texture Memory is a Firestorm feature added in 6.4.13, it's possible the issue is there if they have made some other code changes related to Texture memory.

I already took the viewer out and went on LL viewer as I do not have any problems there and need to get back to work right now.

At a later time, I can check some of this out but I already uninstalled FS and need to work presently.  I just didn't have more time right now to deal with it.  

Also, with my AMD, I know I have 4 GB but as for the rest I'm not a geek so I don't know but I'll have to check this stuff out at a later time.

Edited by FairreLilette
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39 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

After almost 10 years on and off with FS, I'm making a switch to the LL viewer because it looks fine (if not using materials) and I need to get back to work.  I will try again at a later time to see if specular is better in either viewer and what's up with all that issue.  

Screenshot below in LL viewer shows at least it looks okay and I can go back to work for now. 

Screenshot (240).png

In the FS viewer, go to preferences>Graphics>Hardware Settings and bump up the Antialiasing. Try 4 and see if its better. If not go higher. You might have to restart each time. 

a1fb395ab101a5c78e989786cc02153c.png.bffe829d6793986f42a798602d343c9a.png

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Couple thought:

The 512 you were seeing in the first screenshot - that's megabytes of GPU memory to be used.

An image at 1024 means pixels. a 1024x1024 image is usually less than 4mbs in size.

That noted, SL caps this memory even when you have more. Mine shows 2048 there and my nVidia 2080 GPU goes way past that. A lot of MMOs have this problem from being coded on older methods for much lower expectations than modern systems can meet.

 

On GPU upgrading... easier said than done. Anytime there's a lot of news about things like bitcoin availability of GPUs gets really low. The crypto currency finders use high end GPUs to do their thing, and that dries up the stock of good cards.

That noted, always try to get an nVidia. You want to be no more than 'one behind and adjacent to the top' if you want a long lasting card.

Right now the top is 3080. So most people should be looking at a 2060. One generation behind, second best card of the prior generation. A 2080 like I have is overkill. 20xx anything will be difficult to get, while 30xx anything will be way overpriced and hard to get unless you get lucky.

AMD has switched to being 'low end entry level' for the past several years. It's what you get in your kid's computer if you want them to play less games and do more studying. ;)

 

In LL viewer vs Firestorm or any TPV. I know there is at least one 'plugin' in the LL viewer that isn't not available to TPVs, so TPV use a common open source item instead. But I thought it was with the collision detection / physics engine and NOT graphics. But the last time I saw this discussed was maybe 4 or 5 years ago so even this difference might be gone now. The only TPV I know that intentionally makes SL render very differently by default is Dragon, so if Firestorm and LL viewer are looking very different it more likely means a setting in your Firestorm somewhere is not what you want it to be... but there are so many of them in Firestorm it can be hard to find out what...

 

 

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@FairreLilette

Going back to the LL viewer to get stuff done I can understand but I don't understand why you would uninstall Firestorm when there is no need as they can sit side-by-side, not interfere with each other and a solution may come along.  There have been several good suggestions already since you said that you had gone back.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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3 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

@FairreLilette

Going back to the LL viewer to get stuff done I can understand but I don't understand why you would uninstall Firestorm when there is no need as they can sit side-by-side, not interfere with each other and a solution may come along.  There have been several good suggestions already since you said that you had gone back.

I'm going to go to the FS viewer previous to this one and check it out.  I'll get back to thread later...probably tomorrow.

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11 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

I'm going to go to the FS viewer previous to this one and check it out.  I'll get back to thread later...probably tomorrow.

Please, when you come back, post the "Copy to Clipboard" text you get from Help/"About Firestorm" that folks have been requesting for pages now. The problems described here seem very mysterious—well, except the anti-aliasing part, but even that seems odd to arise just from a version upgrade. The hope is that something coherent will emerge from a better understanding of your machine configuration.

That may also reveal whether you actually need to update drivers, and if so, somebody can find the correct source.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Ati Thei said:

Right click on Firestorm's icon and see if there's "run with graphics processor" option in the context menu, if yes, Select AMD/Nvidia.

No, I don't see anything like that.  But, do you mean the icon on the top left when the viewer is open?   Well, that's what I thought you mean and no there is nothing like the above to check.

Okay, I have the 64.6.4.12 in and I just started it but my first impression is better.  The first screenshot shows you can see some bump look in the planter and my chair looks better although the shadow is still way over-riding the texture on the chair cushion but on the other FS viewer my chair cushion showed only shadow and I couldn't even see any texture on it, it was just kind of black on the cushion.  My hair, that I made (a novice here) still looks a bit like it has a marching ant effect although it's going to be static looking in the photo, and in the photo looks like bits of my hair are "sparkling" or sparkling ants effect.  I'm not sure I want that.  But, again, I just started and I need some time to see all what is going on.

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Please, when you come back, post the "Copy to Clipboard" text you get from Help/"About Firestorm" that folks have been requesting for pages now. The problems described here seem very mysterious—well, except the anti-aliasing part, but even that seems odd to arise just from a version upgrade. The hope is that something coherent will emerge from a better understanding of your machine configuration.

That may also reveal whether you actually need to update drivers, and if so, somebody can find the correct source.

The other reason I wanted to wait before doing this is I think it would be better if I work one-on-one with somebody to go through all this and I have a friend who has helped me with many things and is a graphics designer in real life, so if I can get ahold of him today, this might be the best route for me to go - one-on-one and step-by-step.  My first impression though is it is much better than the newest EEP.

I tried EEP on LL viewer yesterday and it is gorgeous in my club.  (Click on the photo, the sparkling strands of hair show up more - texture was made by me and it did not sparkle before.)

Screenshot (246).png

Screenshot (247).png

Edited by FairreLilette
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Time after time, helpers ask OPs to post their system details from their viewer's Help -> About [viewer Name].  Without these basic, raw details, help is almost impossible to give; a string of imaginative possibilities is all that gets offered.

Time after time, OPs do not post these details. Why the hell is this? What is it about these details that must remain a closely guarded secret? A whole host of "regular suspects" can usually be quickly spotted from these details. If none are seen, at least everyone can see that the basics are correct, before they go diving off into fantasyland.

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5 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

No, I don't see anything like that.  But, do you mean the icon on the top left when the viewer is open?   Well, that's what I thought you mean and no there is nothing like the above to check.

 

No, the Firestorm icon which you click to launch it. Right click on it to get this menu and see if there's "Run with graphics processor", if so, choose AMD. See if there's difference. The fact that Dynamic Texture Memory is locked makes me think you run Firestorm through integrated graphics. (assuming you are correct about having RX 5300 although this card has 3GB memory, not 4 as you say)

And for the love of Flying Spaghetti Monster, copy/paste us the info from Help -> About Firestorm.

run-with-graphics-processor.jpg

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22 minutes ago, Ati Thei said:

No, the Firestorm icon which you click to launch it. Right click on it to get this menu and see if there's "Run with graphics processor", if so, choose AMD. See if there's difference. The fact that Dynamic Texture Memory is locked makes me think you run Firestorm through integrated graphics. (assuming you are correct about having RX 5300 although this card has 3GB memory, not 4 as you say)

And for the love of Flying Spaghetti Monster, copy/paste us the info from Help -> About Firestorm.

run-with-graphics-processor.jpg

On my old laptop, when I updated a viewer it did switch over to the integrated graphics.  I had to go into the nvidia control panel to set it to always open firestorm with nvidia.  

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12 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

when I updated a viewer it did switch over to the integrated graphics

I think Windows updates, in the past, have caused that too. All of these sort of things stand out like sore thumbs when you look at the system details from the viewer's Help -> About [viewer name].

Edited by Odaks
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