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A better viewer than the recent Firestorm? (March21)


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On 10/22/2021 at 10:28 PM, KjartanEno said:

2. Kokua will hide mesh attached above the neck while in first person view. This is nice when seated in a boat or other vehicle and looking around in first person view. You won't see your mesh ears, hair, or tongue, for example, if they're using attachment points above the neck (might include the neck attachment point but I'm not logged in right now to verify that).

All Viewers do this. Almost always have been (there was a time they didn't for a while, that was a bug). Problem is that most things are attached to hand (rigged stuff because its rigged and automatically goes where it should) but can usually be fixed by separating the head from the body (if no scripts require it to be in linkset) and attaching it separately to the head.

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4 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

All Viewers do this. Almost always have been (there was a time they didn't for a while, that was a bug). Problem is that most things are attached to hand (rigged stuff because its rigged and automatically goes where it should) but can usually be fixed by separating the head from the body (if no scripts require it to be in linkset) and attaching it separately to the head.

Head attached to Skull attachment point. Avatar is seated. View is 1st Person.

Firestorm:

FS_1st_seated.thumb.jpg.9c4408805a5c2aacce1d77175afecca1.jpg

Kokua:

Kokua_1st_seated.thumb.jpg.6ee097094730165ee09887884972f1e6.jpg

Edited to add that I'm not saying I prefer any one viewer over another in all situations. I go to Firestorm when I want to do building. I use Singularity in clubs. I like the look that Alchemy EEP beta (only available from the Alchemy Discord channel) has with its unique Contrast Adaptive Sharpening. I like Kokua for the aforementioned features. Really I'm spoiled for choices. :)

Edited by KjartanEno
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2 hours ago, KjartanEno said:

Head attached to Skull attachment point. Avatar is seated. View is 1st Person.

Firestorm:

FS_1st_seated.thumb.jpg.9c4408805a5c2aacce1d77175afecca1.jpg

Kokua:

Kokua_1st_seated.thumb.jpg.6ee097094730165ee09887884972f1e6.jpg

Edited to add that I'm not saying I prefer any one viewer over another in all situations. I go to Firestorm when I want to do building. I use Singularity in clubs. I like the look that Alchemy EEP beta (only available from the Alchemy Discord channel) has with its unique Contrast Adaptive Sharpening. I like Kokua for the aforementioned features. Really I'm spoiled for choices. :)

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-6808

Another dated bug LL hasn't gotten around to fixing.

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4 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-6808

Another dated bug LL hasn't gotten around to fixing.

That's the bug i was talking about! This has been long fixed... unless they brought it back (again again).

I tested it on Black Dragon, rezzed a new cube and attached it to Skull (my head is also attached there)

image.thumb.png.9fc045d751c89f9121334fd9f37db16b.png

and went into mouselook.

 

image.thumb.png.b419694d3f77ca5e95219e643ba6fac3.png

You can clearly see that the box is there, it casts a shadow just like my head but both are not visible in mouselook to me. This is definitely fixed.

To make sure i wasn't going crazy, i tested it in the official viewer too.

unknown.png

As expected it works there too. You can see the shadow of both my head and the cube, both not visible in mouselook view (as it should be). Conclusion this is a Firestorm bug.

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Firestorm bug, that has been long fixed in the upstream? Hm... I'm not sure about it. @NiranV DeanCan you try to test that again with rigged and non-rigged mesh attachments as well? Because on FS, with a simple prim cube... effect is the same. It's not visible in mouselook - as it should. That linked JIRA ticket also suggests that it may be connected with rigging, therefore a prim is not a reliable test. Kokua does have a switch for that.

1.jpg

2.jpg

Edited by panterapolnocy
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Running Black Dragon via WINE, I do see the rigged mesh head attached to the Skull while in 1st person camera view. Of course, it's not a really obvious issue most of the time since the camera is viewing the invisible side of the faces of the rigged mesh object(s). Being seated will most often pose/animate the head in a way that makes the mesh more visible than while standing/moving with an AO. 

Edited by KjartanEno
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3 hours ago, panterapolnocy said:

Firestorm bug, that has been long fixed in the upstream? Hm... I'm not sure about it. @NiranV DeanCan you try to test that again with rigged and non-rigged mesh attachments as well? Because on FS, with a simple prim cube... effect is the same. It's not visible in mouselook - as it should. That linked JIRA ticket also suggests that it may be connected with rigging, therefore a prim is not a reliable test. Kokua does have a switch for that.

1.jpg

2.jpg

Interesting, thats the only thing i can think of that might be causing this. I've never paid any attention to this because my body is one entire body with no separated parts attached to extra slots, so i see the inside of my head anyway, regardless of whether that would be fixed. The question is, does it fix it when rigged to the head too or just when attached to the head. The first one seems like something hard to detect, the second one seems like an odd bug (why the difference between rigged mesh and normal prims, attached to head is attached to head)

On further testing both cases seem to be bugged. Fixing the head slot shouldn't be hard, fixing it for when a face/link is rigged to the head could be a bit harder though (or slower). Will fix in the next update.

Edited by NiranV Dean
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For what it is worth I frequently use first person view and while the head is definitely attached to ths skull pont I see elements of my head that are not separate attachments, ie teeth.  This is in Firestorm 6.4.21and has been the same for the recent past.  Some I  can hide but the mouth and throat are still clearly visible to me (sorry no picture at this point) and cannot be hidden by the Catwa Master HUD, so if this IS a FS bug I wish they'd get round to fixing it!

Edited by Aishagain
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14 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

The problem comes when you are sitting in mouselook or when you jump in mouselook.

Prims or mesh whose normals are not facing away from your camera in mouselook are better candidates to test with.

That's not the issue and doesn't matter either. The issue is that unlike normal prims skinned mesh (rigged mesh attachments) are for some reason ignored from this and continue to be rendered even when attached to the head attachment slots. I wouldn't be surprised if it was another one of those pointless "on purpose" things LL did.

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I would still like in-world application level control of what body part(s) and things rigged to, shows in mouselook.

For example, if I was running a game where you used a melee/gun/bow weapon and want only arm(s) and the weapon in hand(s) showing during the swinging/shooting.

The same could be done when riding in/on certain vehicles.

Another example would be showing only specific body parts during specific bed animations. Wink. Wink. Nudge. Nudge. Say no more.

A complex example that we currently cannot do yet is second person point of view camera following and attached object (selfie) point of view camera following.

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Firestorm's looked real messed up for me the past two weeks, like the kerning (maybe?) of the fonts has gone off. All the text seems stretched out and thin, haven't found a way to fix that yet.

image.thumb.png.db87664640c448f9a598258f1965b840.png

 

Overall performance in-game seems like it's taken a hit since the update, too. Any tips?

Edited by 1Arden
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15 hours ago, 1Arden said:

Firestorm's looked real messed up for me the past two weeks, like the kerning (maybe?) of the fonts has gone off. All the text seems stretched out and thin, haven't found a way to fix that yet.

You may want to take a look at this article. If you didn't update the viewer within these two weeks it is quite possible a Windows update had an influence here - if you're using Windows, that is.

15 hours ago, 1Arden said:

Overall performance in-game seems like it's taken a hit since the update, too. Any tips?

You may want to review your currently set graphics settings and adjust them accordingly. Experiment with water transparency, for example.

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The font issue seems better, but the whole viewer is still slow as molasses. When I turn the Advanced Lighting Model on, textures flat-out don't load all the way, it's like it's being throttled back. FPS drops down to 3. I'm not really sure why, it was performing great before the update, and I've even tried to dial some things down since, but photography's still almost impossible now. Like the graphic card took a step back.

Here's where I'm at

 

image.png.ec31b599e6093cf5c238f8b8db157de1.pngimage.png.f27e6a9d1bb8fdfb3bd3073265610324.png

Edited by 1Arden
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31 minutes ago, 1Arden said:

The font issue seems better, but the whole viewer is still slow as molasses. When I turn the Advanced Lighting Model on, textures flat-out don't load all the way, it's like it's being throttled back. FPS drops down to 3. I'm not really sure why, it was performing great before the update, and I've even tried to dial some things down since, but photography's still almost impossible now. Like the graphic card took a step back.

Here's where I'm at

Post a printscreen of  Help > About Firestorm

Screenshot_2021-10-29_22-05-43.thumb.png.17dd9c9df180e3d092604e4a77fdeb3f.png

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Firestorm 6.4.21 (64531) Jul 21 2021 21:00:53 (64bit / SSE2) (Firestorm-Releasex64) with Havok support
Release Notes

CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-1603 0 @ 2.80GHz (2793.11 MHz)
Memory: 16298 MB
Concurrency: 4
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 SP1 64-bit (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 6144 MB

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 27.21.14.5730
OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 457.30

RestrainedLove API: (disabled)
libcurl Version: libcurl/7.54.1 OpenSSL/1.0.2l zlib/1.2.8 nghttp2/1.40.0
J2C Decoder Version: KDU v8.1
Audio Driver Version: FMOD Studio 2.01.09
Dullahan: 1.8.0.202011211324
  CEF: 81.3.10+gb223419+chromium-81.0.4044.138
  Chromium: 81.0.4044.138
LibVLC Version: 2.2.8
Voice Server Version: Vivox 4.10.0000.32327

Settings mode: Firestorm
Viewer Skin: Firestorm (Grey)
Window size: 1920x1137 px
Font Used: Deja Vu (96 dpi)
Font Size Adjustment: 0.2 pt
UI Scaling: 1
Draw distance: 32 m
Bandwidth: 1950 kbit/s
LOD factor: 3.375
Render quality: Ultra (7/7)
Advanced Lighting Model: No
Texture memory: Dynamic (1600 MB min / 12% Cache / 10% VRAM)
Disk cache: Max size 3328.0 MB (15.6% used)
Built with MSVC version 1916
Packets Lost: 0/1,425 (0.0%)
October 29 2021 12:46:25 SLT

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13 minutes ago, 1Arden said:

Firestorm 6.4.21 (64531) Jul 21 2021 21:00:53 (64bit / SSE2) (Firestorm-Releasex64) with Havok support
Release Notes

CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-1603 0 @ 2.80GHz (2793.11 MHz)
Memory: 16298 MB
Concurrency: 4
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 SP1 64-bit (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 6144 MB

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 27.21.14.5730
OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 457.30

RestrainedLove API: (disabled)
libcurl Version: libcurl/7.54.1 OpenSSL/1.0.2l zlib/1.2.8 nghttp2/1.40.0
J2C Decoder Version: KDU v8.1
Audio Driver Version: FMOD Studio 2.01.09
Dullahan: 1.8.0.202011211324
  CEF: 81.3.10+gb223419+chromium-81.0.4044.138
  Chromium: 81.0.4044.138
LibVLC Version: 2.2.8
Voice Server Version: Vivox 4.10.0000.32327

Settings mode: Firestorm
Viewer Skin: Firestorm (Grey)
Window size: 1920x1137 px
Font Used: Deja Vu (96 dpi)
Font Size Adjustment: 0.2 pt
UI Scaling: 1
Draw distance: 32 m
Bandwidth: 1950 kbit/s
LOD factor: 3.375
Render quality: Ultra (7/7)
Advanced Lighting Model: No
Texture memory: Dynamic (1600 MB min / 12% Cache / 10% VRAM)
Disk cache: Max size 3328.0 MB (15.6% used)
Built with MSVC version 1916
Packets Lost: 0/1,425 (0.0%)
October 29 2021 12:46:25 SLT

Your CPU is going on for 10 years old, so a poor framerate on SL isn't all too surprising - SL is heavily CPU bound and even modern hardware has issues running SL at full speed.

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20 minutes ago, 1Arden said:

Firestorm 6.4.21 (64531) Jul 21 2021 21:00:53 (64bit / SSE2) (Firestorm-Releasex64) with Havok support
Release Notes

CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-1603 0 @ 2.80GHz (2793.11 MHz)
Memory: 16298 MB
Concurrency: 4
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 SP1 64-bit (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 6144 MB

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 27.21.14.5730
OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 457.30

RestrainedLove API: (disabled)
libcurl Version: libcurl/7.54.1 OpenSSL/1.0.2l zlib/1.2.8 nghttp2/1.40.0
J2C Decoder Version: KDU v8.1
Audio Driver Version: FMOD Studio 2.01.09
Dullahan: 1.8.0.202011211324
  CEF: 81.3.10+gb223419+chromium-81.0.4044.138
  Chromium: 81.0.4044.138
LibVLC Version: 2.2.8
Voice Server Version: Vivox 4.10.0000.32327

Settings mode: Firestorm
Viewer Skin: Firestorm (Grey)
Window size: 1920x1137 px
Font Used: Deja Vu (96 dpi)
Font Size Adjustment: 0.2 pt
UI Scaling: 1
Draw distance: 32 m
Bandwidth: 1950 kbit/s
LOD factor: 3.375
Render quality: Ultra (7/7)
Advanced Lighting Model: No
Texture memory: Dynamic (1600 MB min / 12% Cache / 10% VRAM)
Disk cache: Max size 3328.0 MB (15.6% used)
Built with MSVC version 1916
Packets Lost: 0/1,425 (0.0%)
October 29 2021 12:46:25 SLT

Turn down LOD also.  I have no trouble rendering items and mine is at 1.75.

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1 hour ago, 1Arden said:

Firestorm 6.4.21 (64531) Jul 21 2021 21:00:53 (64bit / SSE2) (Firestorm-Releasex64) with Havok support
Release Note

Try with these settings and see how it goes, if it doesn't revert to one of the FS defaults or your backup..

Screenshot_2021-10-29_23-51-14.thumb.png.7a08571e8ea13648f1e46352b73a04bd.pngScreenshot_2021-10-29_23-50-59.thumb.png.598f4bd3da43e5da27a0e19bbaad17b3.png

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8 hours ago, 1Arden said:

Firestorm 6.4.21 (64531) Jul 21 2021 21:00:53 (64bit / SSE2) (Firestorm-Releasex64) with Havok support
Release Notes

CPU: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-1603 0 @ 2.80GHz (2793.11 MHz)
Memory: 16298 MB
Concurrency: 4
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 SP1 64-bit (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/PCIe/SSE2
Graphics Card Memory: 6144 MB

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 27.21.14.5730
OpenGL Version: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 457.30

RestrainedLove API: (disabled)
libcurl Version: libcurl/7.54.1 OpenSSL/1.0.2l zlib/1.2.8 nghttp2/1.40.0
J2C Decoder Version: KDU v8.1
Audio Driver Version: FMOD Studio 2.01.09
Dullahan: 1.8.0.202011211324
  CEF: 81.3.10+gb223419+chromium-81.0.4044.138
  Chromium: 81.0.4044.138
LibVLC Version: 2.2.8
Voice Server Version: Vivox 4.10.0000.32327

Settings mode: Firestorm
Viewer Skin: Firestorm (Grey)
Window size: 1920x1137 px
Font Used: Deja Vu (96 dpi)
Font Size Adjustment: 0.2 pt
UI Scaling: 1
Draw distance: 32 m
Bandwidth: 1950 kbit/s
LOD factor: 3.375
Render quality: Ultra (7/7)
Advanced Lighting Model: No
Texture memory: Dynamic (1600 MB min / 12% Cache / 10% VRAM)
Disk cache: Max size 3328.0 MB (15.6% used)
Built with MSVC version 1916
Packets Lost: 0/1,425 (0.0%)
October 29 2021 12:46:25 SLT

A ten year old Xeon server cpu is not even going to come close to actual usability for SL. Your memory is slow, either DDR3-800 or 1066. Plus, you're running a non supported version of Windows. It's time for a hardware upgrade. 

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I would guess its the Anisotropic Filtering, Too high bandwidth, Windows 7, high antialiasing setting (I leave mine at 4 and everything looks just fine), and way Too high LOD that are causing the issues. 

Also, your font scale is set to 0.2, that could be why your font is smaller than normal. 

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Okay, I changed some things around based on your suggestions, I'll see how it looks. I know it's not the newest system, it's just confusing to me because things were really humming just a few weeks ago. Maybe I was fiddling in the wrong direction. 

Also noticed that it doesn't seem like you can turn off Transparent Water as long as you've got Advanced Lightning enabled. 

Edited by 1Arden
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3 hours ago, 1Arden said:

Also noticed that it doesn't seem like you can turn off Transparent Water as long as you've got Advanced Lightning enabled. 

Try this and it should leave advanced lighting on.

  • Added new water transparency performance options
    Preferences → Graphics → General → Water Reflections → None (opaque), None (transparent)
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3 hours ago, 1Arden said:

Also noticed that it doesn't seem like you can turn off Transparent Water as long as you've got Advanced Lightning enabled. 

With ALM active the setting you want is opaque water and that IS available...I use it in busy clubs!

ETA:  as I was typing my response, Rowan Amore was posting the very same thing! 😁

Edited by Aishagain
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