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PROPOSAL= RIGGING POSE AND EDIT MODE WOES DO NOT REFLECT EDIT IN OTHER MODE.


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15 hours ago, Aquila Kytori said:

 

First save your .blend file :)

 

The process is to select, then copy and paste into a new .blend file :

  1. In Edit mode select as much of the geometry around one of the eyes as you can.
  2. Use the key board shortcut Shft + D to make a copy of the selected geometry.
  3. With the geometry still selected hit the P key to open the Separate menu and choose the option Selection. This will separate it into a new object.
  4. In Object mode select only this new object then use Ctrl + C to copy it to "clipboard".

Next is to paste it into a new .blend file,

  1. File > New General > ( Don't save ) and a new .blend will open.
  2. Delete the default cube.
  3. Paste in the Eye geometry with Ctrl + V  .  The bones will be included with the mesh object.
  4. Save this new .blend and upload to https://pasteall.org/blend/

 

Here we go @Aquila Kytori I hope  did it right https://pasteall.org/blend/95a57ce753864f9db40b8b3f282caf24

 

 

Edited by VirtualKitten
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Posted Images

On 4/1/2021 at 12:14 AM, VirtualKitten said:

I am frustratd with Blender 2.912 its pretty cool except for rigging . The main problem is edits to bones in edit mode dont  reflect to the same change in Pose mode and visa versa . This is really frustrating and you have to know secret commands  to reset this pose as a default pose and all this stupid stuff that it was really not meant for this use in blender . Why cant the edits you do in either before adding weights  move accross TO THE OTHER MODE ITS EXTREEMLY SILLY  . This becmes a problem when your moving bone tails in edit and require a thin bone for teath you cant prioperly scale he bone in edit mode like you can in pose mode . I have not found out why not. You then end up with two completely differant bone positions to wahats in POSE and EDIT mode cant the blender team fix this?

 

DISCUSS :)

Switch to Maya and you get the described behavior. There is no such thing as different modes, joints are simply deformers driving transform nodes, as it should be. Blender can't provide the features you're talking about because of its lack of support for bind poses.

Now you all can jump all over me with the anti elitist anti commercial software arguments bandwagon 😂

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2 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Switch to Maya and you get the described behavior. There is no such thing as different modes, joints are simply deformers driving transform nodes, as it should be. Blender can't provide the features you're talking about because of its lack of support for bind poses.

Now you all can jump all over me with the anti elitist anti commercial software arguments bandwagon 😂

I'm gonna prefer the bandwagen that includes "recommending a switch to a software that costs >2000€ per year unless you buy 3 years in advance is not good advice for a single request for something that's apparently easy to work without".

Whichever that might be.

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1 hour ago, FinnfinnLost said:

m gonna prefer the bandwagen that includes "recommending a switch to a software that costs >2000€ per year

Wrong, there's the indie license at 350 usd per year, but aside from that, I'm on the bandwagon of those who prefer professional quality over a free " own standard that caters only to its own users and doesn't comply to common software expectation to the point of needing a dedicated support to make content work "

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9 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

 

Here we go @Aquila Kytori I hope  did it right https://pasteall.org/blend/95a57ce753864f9db40b8b3f282caf24

 

 

("pre" post-script: I'm not Aquila.)

You have a lot of "outer" and "inner" eye bone pairs reversed. Inner ones go toward the center of the head.

I also see big angle misalignments, especially with the eyeball and eyelid bones. The eyelid bones work best if their heads are at the eyeball center, and the eye bone itself has to be rooted there. That way, when the bone rotates, the eyeball simply rotates in place.

(Eyeballs are easier to rig & weight manually than any other part of the face. That's good because automatic weighting won't get it right. Make the eyeball a perfect sphere. Put the eye bone base exactly at the center. The tip is generally pointed through the iris because that's intuitive. Weight every vertex in that eyeball at 1.0 to its bone and to nothing else. Done.)

The eyebrow and corner bones could benefit from re-angling as well, but it's less crucial there. (Don't worry about keeping every bone forward-pointing. They all point forward-ish in the original Bento skeleton because human faces are flat. Your face is very non-human and has significantly different contours.) Think of the exact motion path that the tip will swing along when you rotate that bone. Is that the curve you want the skin to follow?

Most of your bones don't have their tips near the places they will have the strongest effect on. This will screw up automatic weighting.

Here's a big point I don't think anyone has mentioned yet: you're going to have to make your own animations for this face. There is about a 0.000% chance that other people's face animations will work right on yours. So you should arrange your bones and paint your weights in whatever way makes that later step easiest for you to do good work with.

Edited by Quarrel Kukulcan
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16 hours ago, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

(Eyeballs are easier to rig & weight manually than any other part of the face. That's good because automatic weighting won't get it right. Make the eyeball a perfect sphere. Put the eye bone base exactly at the center. The tip is generally pointed through the iris because that's intuitive. Weight every vertex in that eyeball at 1.0 to its bone and to nothing else. Done.)

 

You will probably need to redo the eye opening, (add geometry) to "fit" the "perfect sphere" of the eyeball.

Without changing to much the surrounding geometry of the head it will look something like in the screenshots below :

Modifies-min.thumb.png.c6297f3f37cf01b0dfc6d26313e34061.png

 

Inside-min.thumb.png.067fff0c206dfc64aa3039f161327a46.png

It may help to convert this part of the mesh to quads before doing this.

Edit mode > select mesh > Face menu > Tris to Quads.

 

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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Posted (edited)

Wow that is a lot to take in Aquila Kytori so you think i should ad another mesh loop to eyes and i get you mean straighten the bones I will have a look next week as work in LSL in weekend its so very kind of you to have a look at what i might need, Kisses

Edited by VirtualKitten
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25 minutes ago, VirtualKitten said:

so you think i should ad another mesh loop to eyes

It's not the extra loop cut that is so important but a few extra vertices around the actual eye opening to help it fit the curve of the eyeball.

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3 hours ago, VirtualKitten said:

Like this you mean?

Hmmmmmmmm ! well almost .....

You have missed out the most important part, The Eyeball !

Start by adding the eyeball then you need to get the eye opening vertices to fit the shape of the eye ball so that there is no (or little) gap.

Example using the  existing eye-opening edge ring of  7 vertices :

1: Select and the eye and the geometry inside of the eye opening:

1-min.thumb.png.ee1f62d4531adace685df63cd7c665a6.png

 

2: Delete selected geometry. Next select the eye opening edge loop and move cursor to selected  ( Shft + S > Cursor to Selected) :

2-min.thumb.png.d817ad240e225090bf4b2ca1834aa1aa.png

 

3: Add a sphere. Scale and reposition as needed  :

1485796993_AddEyball-min.thumb.png.ab969e1c750c84b562b2f13d71a4f577.png

 

4:  With only the eyeball selected hit the P key and choose the Selected option to separate the eyeball into a separate object.

   Object mode select only the head mesh then tab into Edit mode.

5: Next is Snap the vertices of the eye-opening edge ring to the surface of the eyeball.......

   Enable the Snapping tool and X-ray view. Then looking straight onto the eye select one of the vertices of the eye opening edge ring and hit the G key and validate with the LMB. The vertex will now be snapped to the surface of the eyeball. Repeat for the other vertices.

1654712854_3Snaptoeyeball-min.thumb.png.52cd7d536ebdc831f76dbab81ad01c78.png

 

6: Disable the Snap tool and the X-ray option the mesh will look something like the screenshot below, with the eyeball poking through in places  :

4-min.thumb.png.21d6484fc728411d873f93639ca91ce7.png

 

7: To fix the poke through select the eye opening edge loop and drag it out a little until there is no poke through. Enable the X-ray again. Next extrude this edge ring and drag it in some and scale down so that the new edge ring is inside the eyeball :

5-min.thumb.png.9fbb2a879a02bac18e4691e4e35ac6ca.png

 

8: You can now join the eyeball object to the head mesh object again ....

   In object mode first select the eyeball object then select the dragon mesh and hit the Ctrl + J

And with extra edge loop(s) that will probably help with animating deforms, closing the eyes or blinking :

7-min(1).thumb.png.87ec48411db82292f535a94d41b500a9.png

 

Thats just my way of doing it  but  if you find the snapping a bit awkward you can do steps 4 to 8 simply by manually tweaking the vertices into position. After all it is only 7 vertices that need to be positioned.

Anyways my point was, start by adding the eyeball.  :)

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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Posted (edited)

@Aquila Kytori like this 

52a7f530c620fc01ba34756a274c056b.png

I am a little confused about next part unhide eyeball and do what please? select vertices faces upon it, the eyeball ?

Am not sure which sphere to choose as mine had quads and did not look like yours  I tried UV which was like quads and  ico sphere ee2380cd64f3f602b5f121f7e00b1fca.png

 

Edited by VirtualKitten
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1 hour ago, VirtualKitten said:

I rotated it 

7e8176f44d9a6901dad253f75b24995a.thumb.png.cdbf75411cb3b1b89ae732c6341cbee2.png

First image....That look OK to me. I would now select the eyeball and move it out a little, towards the viewer.

 

Next: Remember what @Quarrel Kukulcan said about the position of the 3 bones.

On 4/10/2021 at 10:12 PM, Quarrel Kukulcan said:

Make the eyeball a perfect sphere. Put the eye bone base exactly at the center. The tip is generally pointed through the iris because that's intuitive. Weight every vertex in that eyeball at 1.0 to its bone and to nothing else. Done.)

eyelids.thumb.jpg.8c886ecc824ea4c53fc2cd90d336b28a.jpg.403a0078da9b8e99a6edff4e24c2edd1.jpg

Find the center of the eyeball sphere and position the base of the 3 relevant bones at this point.

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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Drag out the eyeball in the direction of the arrow in the image below so that it fills more of the eye opening :

1.png.1a81405436a2f165b38445841b5a15f6.png

 

so that it looks more like this :

2.png.74f68bd35e5b57cabe1a0b513dafba5c.png

 

and then do the "grabby things" I explained in in my earlier step 1 to 8 post.

If it looks good to you then it probabaly is.

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I think I would drag the vertices (edges) marked red in the image below out a little to try to reduce the dark shading around the inner eye and the edge marked green drag it down in the Z axis a little.

3afbc8f019a125ef9eb746fe59631acd.png.416819b262c7ff736701318836d96582.png

And then move the eyeball out just a little more. But its up to you. If you think its OK then leave it where it is.

 

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Posted (edited)

Aquila Kytori I am enjoying our lesson  and am learning a lot thank you  I hope everyone else will from this too xD

This is what i tried pulled both out, the shadow might be were i places lighting xD

8b1bb002e015df2d059c128bc46801a6.png

7d9aa7d79982605750ae63453f8039e3.png

Other side :

a395840be3765c62da24f47af46551aa.png

ninside 

69e593584c92952644dd5a23c4ba421a.png

Edited by VirtualKitten
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I still think your eye ball is to far inside the head and needs to be pulled forward some in the eye opening.

The first image is the original eye opening in the dragons head.

1-min.thumb.png.40f895937073f11c3aadb5a4ccaf83bf.png

 

The next image is how I would position the eyeball :

2-min.thumb.png.e1ce59feb11e36725dce817554791280.png

 

Next image is how you have positioned the eyeball relative to the eye opening edge loop :

3-min.thumb.png.4367eff3a3205f3505652ae232595937.png

 

And the next the position of the eyeball relative to the eye opening in a actual dragon :

4-min.thumb.png.c3960faddb9c719d8a20e450c82fdb2c.png

 

If you think it would help, you can download my eye mesh from here :

https://pasteall.org/blend/eb841bf2b3774ae6888d25d479a12b5b

Edited by Aquila Kytori
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