Warning - Latest Windows Update wipes logins BOTH FS and Linden viewers

[Chic Aeon]

Sooooo -- Last night I got the 'you need new Windows message'

 

Let Win10 Pro do its thing while I brushed my teeth. Things seemed OK at least the computer still started :D.

But all my logins from both Firestorm and Linden viewers are gone. No I remember all the logins except for a friends who was here some time ago so not a big deal, but wanted to worn FS folks especially to save a backup if you don't normally.  I am guessing that would put things right. I am just typing in passwords as needed.   

So we don't have to pay for new versions of Windows now, but we certainly gave up a lot of power in the process. As the saying goes, "if you didn't pay for the product, you ARE the product".  I do my best to avert that whenever and wherever I can :D.

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

I certainly didn't have that problem with the standard monthly Windows update this past Tuesday. Mine is the lowly "Home" edition instead of "Pro" which might make a difference.

Also, that "will soon reach the end of service" isn't anything I've ever seen, perhaps because I usually update very soon when new Windows versions are in general release. I don't remember that ever losing saved login credentials, though.

[Gabriele Graves]

I believe this happens because some Windows 10 updates change the networking stack and the network card then appears to have changed.  I believe that the details about the network card are used as part of the encryption for the passwords database.

[Madelaine McMasters]

15 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I believe this happens because some Windows 10 updates change the networking stack and the network card then appears to have changed.  I believe that the details about the network card are used as part of the encryption for the passwords database.

 

I haven't been able to determine just what messes up login credentials in MacOS, but I've lost mine when swapping cable modems or main wi-fi routers.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

50 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

 

I haven't been able to determine just what messes up login credentials in MacOS, but I've lost mine when swapping cable modems or main wi-fi routers.

Network stack change is what borks it,   it for some reason uses a hash from the network stack as comperasion,  dono why.

[Vanity Fair]

@Chic AeonLast night I got the same Windows update message that you did, and I am freaking out that I might lose my Firestorm login information (although I do keep track of my alts' usernames and passwords in a separate spreadsheet, just in case something like this happens).

Waiting to hear back more from you, and others, until then I am putting this upgrade on hold (as far as I can tell is simply cosmetic things for Windows anyways).

*sigh* I simply do NOT need this today...

Edited March 15, 2021 by Vanity Fair

[Chic Aeon]

6 minutes ago, Vanity Fair said:

@Chic AeonLast night I got the same Windows update message that you did, and I am freaking out that I might lose my Firestorm login information (although I do keep track of my alts' usernames and passwords in a separate spreadsheet, just in case something like this happens).

Waiting to hear back more from you, and others, until then I am putting this upgrade on hold (as far as I can tell is simply cosmetic things for Windows anyways).

*sigh* I simply do NOT need this today...

 

Not much more to report. Most things seem normal computer-wise.  The update added some EDGE functionality but I use BRAVE most of the time and now Chrome to upload pictures to Blogger since I can no longer do that with BRAVE for some reason.  It changed a few settings in the Windows Explorer but I remembered how to get those back. I looked up in Google what this was about and it said that if you didn't update "to a new version" that further updates couldn't happen but that your computer would still work fine.   

 

That's pretty much all I know. My cookies seem to be in place in my browsers.    If you use FS then I would expect a RESTORE would put all the logins back; it always does for me when I restore.  

[Solar Legion]

22 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Not much more to report. Most things seem normal computer-wise.  The update added some EDGE functionality but I use BRAVE most of the time and now Chrome to upload pictures to Blogger since I can no longer do that with BRAVE for some reason.  It changed a few settings in the Windows Explorer but I remembered how to get those back. I looked up in Google what this was about and it said that if you didn't update "to a new version" that further updates couldn't happen but that your computer would still work fine.   

 

That's pretty much all I know. My cookies seem to be in place in my browsers.    If you use FS then I would expect a RESTORE would put all the logins back; it always does for me when I restore.  

If what you were using was a third party add-on/plug-in to do the uploading, it is possible that it was affected by the recent blocking of certain Chrome API functions in Chromium based browsers - which is what powers Brave.

[Chic Aeon]

34 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

If what you were using was a third party add-on/plug-in to do the uploading, it is possible that it was affected by the recent blocking of certain Chrome API functions in Chromium based browsers - which is what powers Brave.

I read about that when researching why Blogger no longer will upload photos in BRAVE (Chrome is fine), but I just did the regular Windows update so not seeing how that relates to the OP and the disappearance of login files in both viewers.  

 

The not being able to upload with BRAVE has been going on for well over a week now and that API blocking was supposed to be the 15th from what I read anyway.   I just checked and I can STILL upload files from my computer to Chrome.  I am not sure what your "third party add-on refers to but as far as I know I am not using anything. I upload within Blogger using their interface for files on my hard drive. 

Honestly I have no idea what that API blocking is all about :D.  

 

[Solar Legion]

44 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I read about that when researching why Blogger no longer will upload photos in BRAVE (Chrome is fine), but I just did the regular Windows update so not seeing how that relates to the OP and the disappearance of login files in both viewers.  

 

The not being able to upload with BRAVE has been going on for well over a week now and that API blocking was supposed to be the 15th from what I read anyway.   I just checked and I can STILL upload files from my computer to Chrome.  I am not sure what your "third party add-on refers to but as far as I know I am not using anything. I upload within Blogger using their interface for files on my hard drive. 

Honestly I have no idea what that API blocking is all about :D.  

 

There's a reason I quoted you directly ya know - my response was to you.

The upload/third party bit related to the changes made in the API, which hit some earlier than the 15th. Chrome itself would be utterly unaffected by the change.

[Solar Legion]

As for the topic of the thread ...

Keep your username(s) and password(s) in a safe place in the event something like this happens again. In my experience, once such a change occurs you cannot simply restore the saved password file.

[Claireschen Hesten]

I got the update thing in the start menu power options not on screen luckily haven't had this issue since taking it. i have the Win10 Home edition if that makes any difference

[Chic Aeon]

20 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I certainly didn't have that problem with the standard monthly Windows update this past Tuesday. Mine is the lowly "Home" edition instead of "Pro" which might make a difference.

Also, that "will soon reach the end of service" isn't anything I've ever seen, perhaps because I usually update very soon when new Windows versions are in general release. I don't remember that ever losing saved login credentials, though.

It has nothing to do with how often you update as I have my settings on auto and most of the time Windows updates in the night without mentioning it.   I will say as an aside that "I" and I imagine many others get updates that don't show up in the updates listings. I have watched this over and over again. New Windows aps (that I would just as soon not have but just have to ignore) appear, icons move, sound settings get changed when you haven't even restarted the computer .  So you can't really trust the dates and versions as being the ONLY updates.   

 

I had no clue what this was about and so did some research before letting it go on.   This is not the same as a regular update. Those for me usually take less than a minute. This apparently had more major changes within the operating system ,   not just new bells and whistles.    I watched it working for awhile, then went an brushed my teeth  as it was taking awhile and restarting a few times.   So for me it maybe took 5 minutes instead of the typical one or sometimes just a few seconds.  

I have the Win10 pro that came with this computer maybe four years ago. The computer has been rebuilt a couple of times; put together horribly with not too great parts and won't be buying for those guys again :D.  But this wasn't the free upgrade that happened when we went to Win10.   

[Ramen Jedburgh]

It feels like saved log ins get screwed up all the time in Firestorm anyway, so I just kind of roll with it anymore. 

Plus a One Note File to keep track of them.

[Ansariel Hiller]

This - as for now until LL's change regarding the way credentials are encrypted locally - happens on Windows feature updates since on Windows systems the Windows serial number is part of the encryption mechanism and this serial number tends to get changed if you install a Windows feature update (which is basically a complete upgrade installation). So if you have been on Windows 10 19H2 and got "updated" to 20H2, this will trigger the loss of encrypted credentials. Updates from 20H1 to 20H2 won't cause this, since this update doesn't involve an upgrade installation.

In contrast to some comments above, on Windows systems the MAC address of the first network adapter is NOT used for encrypting the local credentials store.

[Vanity Fair]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

It has nothing to do with how often you update as I have my settings on auto and most of the time Windows updates in the night without mentioning it.   I will say as an aside that "I" and I imagine many others get updates that don't show up in the updates listings. I have watched this over and over again. New Windows aps (that I would just as soon not have but just have to ignore) appear, icons move, sound settings get changed when you haven't even restarted the computer .  So you can't really trust the dates and versions as being the ONLY updates.   

 

I had no clue what this was about and so did some research before letting it go on.   This is not the same as a regular update. Those for me usually take less than a minute. This apparently had more major changes within the operating system ,   not just new bells and whistles.    I watched it working for awhile, then went an brushed my teeth  as it was taking awhile and restarting a few times.   So for me it maybe took 5 minutes instead of the typical one or sometimes just a few seconds.  

I have the Win10 pro that came with this computer maybe four years ago. The computer has been rebuilt a couple of times; put together horribly with not too great parts and won't be buying for those guys again :D.  But this wasn't the free upgrade that happened when we went to Win10.   

Thanks, Chic! I will try to backup my Firestorm saved avatar userids/passwords file before I attempt to do this Windows 10 upgrade (not sure how to do that, but that's what Google is for 😉 ...) 

[Chic Aeon]

27 minutes ago, Vanity Fair said:

Thanks, Chic! I will try to backup my Firestorm saved avatar userids/passwords file before I attempt to do this Windows 10 upgrade (not sure how to do that, but that's what Google is for 😉 ...) 

[Gabriele Graves]

The last time I tried restoring from a backup after FS couldn't decode my credentials, it didn't work for me and I ended up with the same message.  My assumption was that this backup feature just copies the encrypted store.  Admittedly, this was on Linux so it might be different but it would be nice to get some confirmation from the @Ansariel Hilleras to whether this will actually work on Windows when it changes before assuming you are safe.

Personally I use an encrypted password manager (Keepass2) to keep all my logins for all websites I care about and put my SL credentials in there as well.  This stops me being overly worried about these changes.

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

This - as for now until LL's change regarding the way credentials are encrypted locally - happens on Windows feature updates since on Windows systems the Windows serial number is part of the encryption mechanism and this serial number tends to get changed if you install a Windows feature update (which is basically a complete upgrade installation). So if you have been on Windows 10 19H2 and got "updated" to 20H2, this will trigger the loss of encrypted credentials. Updates from 20H1 to 20H2 won't cause this, since this update doesn't involve an upgrade installation.

In contrast to some comments above, on Windows systems the MAC address of the first network adapter is NOT used for encrypting the local credentials store.

Thanks for the correction, though I didn't say MAC address and that I only believed the network stack was involved.  I thought that Windows was probably the same as the build for Linux in this regard.  On Linux, if I disable my network card, FS cannot decode it's credential store until I re-enable it.

Sorry if I misled anyone about Windows though.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[Ansariel Hiller]

2 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

The last time I tried restoring from a backup after FS couldn't decode my credentials, it didn't work for me and I ended up with the same message.  My assumption was that this backup feature just copies the encrypted store.  Admittedly, this was on Linux so it might be different but it would be nice to get some confirmation from the @Ansariel Hilleras to whether this will actually work on Windows when it changes before assuming you are safe.

Settings backup won't help in this situation. The encrypted file with the credentials is part of a backup, but the viewer won't be able to decode it anymore because the Windows serial number is different after a Windows feature update if this feature update is basically an upgrade installation (most often the case with the H1 feature updates). Restoring the backed up file doesn't make any difference.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Ansariel Hiller

[Vanity Fair]

8 minutes ago, Ansariel Hiller said:

Settings backup won't help in this situation. The encrypted file with the credentials is part of a backup, but the viewer won't be able to decode it anymore because the Windows serial number is different after a Windows feature update if this feature update is basically an upgrade installation (most often the case with the H1 feature updates). Restoring the backed up file doesn't make any difference.

OK thanks Ansariel. It looks as though I am just going to have to re-enter my username and password info for my small army of alts 😉 thanks again!

[Rachel1206]

2 hours ago, Vanity Fair said:

OK thanks Ansariel. It looks as though I am just going to have to re-enter my username and password info for my small army of alts 😉 thanks again!

If problems check: https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_stored_passwords

It is just a simple entering of your username and password again. And yes, keep a record of username(s)/password(s) in either a simple text file or use a 3rd password handling program. Either way keep the backup on for example external USB or external disk.

[Chic Aeon]

Something else new just happened. I plugged in my headset to charge and it had to "recognize a new device" when I had been using it for a year or so. So other info wiped also. Not really important, but interesting. 

 

And Ansariel is correct it seems. I gave that a try to test and restore doesn't work. So hopefully EVERYONE already saved all those passwords somewhere else.   

Edited March 16, 2021 by Chic Aeon
adding info

[Jackson Redstar]

I did the last Win10 update and didnt have that  issue. I am, however, still looking for my lost shaker of salt:)

[Nova Convair]

The 20H2 update was a small update for those that were up to date at that moment. For all others it was an upgrade installation. The MS plan is to deliver the parts for the next big updates included in the normal updates. When it's time for the next big update they only load a small update and activate the already installed parts. (worked for me for the 20H2 - for the future: we'll see)

I don't store passwords on the viewer - too unstable and unknown safety.
I don't store passwords in browsers password storages - too big obvious targets with unknown safety.

I handle that stuff with keepass (obvious target but very strong known safety). I must admit I wrote a little launcher for viewers though so I can one-click-launch a specific viewer setting and then trigger the keepass auto-type for adding the login data. Probably works with keepass alone but I can easily use different viewers and different config files that way.