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Why Can't the Groups Be Fixed and Do They Really Need to Be?


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It may be a misconception on my part and while I do see the point that such as @dayz Short make: so far as I know SL group IM was never intended to work like a chatroom, nor is it set up with similar resources.  @Kyrah Abattoir makes an important point above.

Edited by Aishagain
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Groups have been broken forever and attempts to find a solution have failed, miserably, repeatedly.

Any solution that might resolve the issue for most groups has been rejected as there was never a singular solution that would work under all circumstances.

The existing group system needs to be junked and reimagined from scratch. Land permissions and chat need to be entirely separate systems, chat needs to prioritize the experience for smaller / ad-hoc sessions. Mega groups with 5 figure user counts need to die.

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1 hour ago, Aishagain said:

@Coffee Pancake while I share many of your thoughts, I can't see support groups like Maitreya Friends dying any time soon unless some other way can be engineered to support such a popular yet complex product.

Group chat is a poor substitute for customer support and clear documentation.

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Whether or not customer support is best dealt with chat or not, there is still a huge need for group chat for special interest groups.  We just don't need it mixed in with land management.  We need a proper group chat that can scale so that people can natter away on whatever subject they choose.

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5 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Whether or not customer support is best dealt with chat or not, there is still a huge need for group chat for special interest groups.  We just don't need it mixed in with land management.  We need a proper group chat that can scale so that people can natter away on whatever subject they choose.

Oh I like it the way it is personally, but groups should probably be capped to a few hundred members as they simply aren't designed to be used as RSS feeds.

I do agree that groups should have some sort of optional automatic pruning system, whether they are used for land or not, so many dead avatars will remain in largely defunctr groups until the heat death of the universe...

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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26 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Oh I like it the way it is personally, but groups should probably be capped to a few hundred members as they simply aren't designed to be used as RSS feeds.

I do agree that groups should have some sort of optional automatic pruning system, whether they are used for land or not, so many dead avatars will remain in largely defunctr groups until the heat death of the universe...

If we had a built-for-purpose group chat at scale, the existing group chat facility could be turned off and we could just keep them for land management.  No pruning necessary because those groups that aren't for land management would just close because there would be no point to them any more.  Group chat is incredibly popular and there is real value in that.  People find and keep up with friends, get help, are able to spread useful information, groups are the glue that binds lots of communities and more.  Removing that ability with no substitute would be devastating for a lot of users.  There is no reason why LL couldn't create a fit for purpose group chat facility that can handle the existing needs of the user base.  There is clearly a desire for it.

Already the worsening group chat dysfunctionality is causing a a great deal of inworld angst as far as I can see.   Pushing people to external sites isn't the answer and causes fragmentation of the user base especially when those services come and go.  There are a lot of people who only want to deal with SL stuff actually in SL and not anywhere else.  Those people aren't following groups over to Discord and other services.

We are in danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater if there is no better version of SL group chat in the future.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
expanded my thoughts
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I do think pruning should be part of the system tho, even assuming they have no weight, there is no value in having groups filled with avatars that aren't used for land related functions and haven't been online in 10 years.

  

6 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

There is no reason why LL couldn't create a fit for purpose group chat facility that can handle the existing needs of the user base.  There is clearly a desire for it.

Yes, but desire doesn't produce clean, reliable and functional code. If you can't do it properly, sometimes the right approach is to not do it at all.

Edited by Kyrah Abattoir
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Just now, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I do think pruning should be part of the system tho, even assuming they have no weight, there is no value in having groups filled with avatars that aren't used for land related functions and haven't been online in 10 years.

Sorry, I did a ninja edit to expand my thought on that above but the jist is that the non-land management groups would just close I expect because they would no longer have any purpose and so that is why I said that pruning isn't necessary.

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7 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

If you can't do it properly, sometimes the right approach is to not do it at all.

I can understand this sentiment but seriously if LL cannot build a group chat right at this stage, perhaps it's time to go home altogether.  I mean compared to streaming 3D user presence and assets you would think that text, even massive amounts of it would be simpler especially given the millions of other services who manage it.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
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I think group chat issues do need fixing because a lot of people enjoy chatting in them. From my own experience and also some close friends of mine. We can often be left quite annoyed and it really affects some people. Some groups that I am in are very important and when chats don't work.... people do get quite frustrated over it. One group for example which is  Goldhunters that I am in does tend to give out a lot of notifications of fishing events and goldrushes which is important to know. Then when people are not able to respond back in that chat because of lagg issues or messages getting dropped and not coming through properly. It does get quite annoying because it is a very social group with a lot of members and people do like to be able to talk to each other within that group chat. I hope that lagg issues and performance issues of group chats gets fixed and sorted out because it is a shame when things do lagg and don't work properly because then important information gets lost and messages.

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There's no one in charge of SL right now. Oz Linden, VP of Engineering for SL, has not been replaced. So nothing is being redesigned, just patched. Since this problem requires a partial redesign, it's not getting done.

Here's the job ad for Oz's replacement. Much will depend on whom LL hires. If LL gets someone who's been in charge of a big, successful MMO, we might see SL get better.The going rate for someone good enough to pull SL out of the hole is above US$250K/year.

We'll know when they hire someone. Engineering VPs don't come out of nowhere. If it's someone with an impressive public track record, there's hope. If nobody has ever heard of them, well ...

While operating remote-only, it's hard to do new things. Work tends to be driven by the JIRA ticket system. So work has to be cut up into bite-sized chunks so that the remote team can digest it. This doesn't work well for redesign tasks.

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2 hours ago, animats said:

There's no one in charge of SL right now. Oz Linden, VP of Engineering for SL, has not been replaced. So nothing is being redesigned, just patched. Since this problem requires a partial redesign, it's not getting done.

Right, so it's not getting done right now.  That doesn't mean discussion on what should be done is pointless.

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On 4/12/2021 at 11:21 AM, animats said:

There's no one in charge of SL right now. Oz Linden, VP of Engineering for SL, has not been replaced. So nothing is being redesigned, just patched. Since this problem requires a partial redesign, it's not getting done.

Here's the job ad for Oz's replacement. Much will depend on whom LL hires. If LL gets someone who's been in charge of a big, successful MMO, we might see SL get better.The going rate for someone good enough to pull SL out of the hole is above US$250K/year.

We'll know when they hire someone. Engineering VPs don't come out of nowhere. If it's someone with an impressive public track record, there's hope. If nobody has ever heard of them, well ...

While operating remote-only, it's hard to do new things. Work tends to be driven by the JIRA ticket system. So work has to be cut up into bite-sized chunks so that the remote team can digest it. This doesn't work well for redesign tasks.

 

Oh yeah.

 

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Oh yeah, I just remembered something else...

As a Premium member, extra groups is something that you are paying a subscription for.

If say, my ISP has a blackout for more than 2 hours, I get a refund for an entire day because you should only pay for things you are actually getting (& they want a reputable business rapport with customers).

...I wonder if the same logic can be applied to the missing SL group chat features for weeks & weeks now? 

That may certainly ease the craziness some.

Edited by MajikVixen Lorefield
It's late and my brain doesn't wanna do grammatically correct
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8 hours ago, MajikVixen Lorefield said:

Oh yeah, I just remembered something else...

As a Premium member, extra groups is something that you are paying a subscription for.

If say, my ISP has a blackout for more than 2 hours, I get a refund for an entire day because you should only pay for things you are actually getting (& they want a reputable business rapport with customers).

...I wonder if the same logic can be applied to the missing SL group chat features for weeks & weeks now? 

That may certainly ease the craziness some.

While you do get extra groups as part of your Premium feature, there are many uses for groups besides Chat.  LL isn't really promising you more Chat for your money.  Even though you may belong to more groups than a non-Premium person, that does not automatically mean that you are missing more Chat than a non-Premium person.

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1 hour ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

While you do get extra groups as part of your Premium feature, there are many uses for groups besides Chat.  LL isn't really promising you more Chat for your money.  Even though you may belong to more groups than a non-Premium person, that does not automatically mean that you are missing more Chat than a non-Premium person.

Again, just tryna help.  Even if I was paying for more chat, tho, the point is that I'm just not getting ANY chat.

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Interesting.  So the premise that one may well be offered a bigger pack but that does not guarantee that the pack even contains anything remains.  That concept may not trouble the US mentality used to snake oil merchants and various interpretations of "freedom", but it does NOT translate well for the rest of us.

What "New and exciting changes" do Linden Lab have for us this week?  Go look at the "Featured News" blog. 

Increased fees for Linden Dollar purchases.  so, when you go to buy Linden Dollars to pay your tier or rent each month Linden Lab will take a little more of your hard-earned.

Oh, and don't bother to chat about it inworld, your group chat is almost certainly not working.  Happy Days.

Edited by Aishagain
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29 minutes ago, Aishagain said:

 

What "New and exciting changes" do Linden Lab have for us this week?  Go look at the "Featured News" blog. 

Increased fees for Linden Dollar purchases.  so, when you go to buy Linden Dollars to pay your tier or rent each month Linden Lab will take a little more of your hard-earned.

 

 

Yeah, we're all yacking about that over here:

 

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