The Darwin Spin Off

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Agnostics neither believe nor disbelieve in god because they believe it's impossible to know anything about how the universe was created. That's also Joe's belief (or at least suspicion). He doesn't call himself an agnostic, but I would. 

My father was an agnostic though I'd suspect, knowing my Dad, a kind of "surface-y" one in that it didn't matter all that much to him as he only spoke to me about it once and never spoke about it again and never spoke about religion or g-d.  I'd figured my Dad most likely took the position of agnostic more so due to his being a psychologist and social worker who had patients from all walks of life but religion was not going to part of his treatment nor help and also that he didn't want to take sides.  

But, I think what agnostics are is more along this lines of this definition below, especially ultimate knowledge.  I can see where it speaks of human knowledge limited to experience is something a psychologist might lean more towards because a psychologist or social worker does attempt to find out about a person's environment and nurture, plus hereditary, to determine some kind of a cause, such as a cause for a phobia for example.  However, I do not think g-d can be ruled out nor even aliens or a simulation, so I'd gather I am a bit agnostic as well.  

AGNOSTIC

a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic:

Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Madelaine McMasters]

31 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

While it's humbling that you don't know, the real money (for me, at least) is on "I don't know, what I don't know..".

The real money, or the real fun?

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

36 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

While it's humbling that you don't know, the real money (for me, at least) is on "I don't know, what I don't know..".

The real money, or the real fun?

"The real money" means, "the biggest payout", which if paid in "fun" is exactly the same, no - better. The win!

[Madelaine McMasters]

51 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

"The real money" means, "the biggest payout", which if paid in "fun" is exactly the same, no - better. The win!

Agreed.

My favorite reason to get up each day is to discover more things I don't know. The best of those are the things I didn't know I didn't know. They're the flaps into the sultan's tent, the door into the tardis.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Madelaine McMasters

[Ceka Cianci]

19 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Well, if I ever find myself in a horse barn with you, I know who's going into the stall first.

ETA: I'm waiting for you to respond "It's the second one who usually gets kicked."

That just depends on which way the horse is facing and if it's not my horse..hehehe

If we pulled up in my jeep, they'd know it was me and would all have their heads out calling out to us..I can get to the start of the driveway to the barn check the mail and can hear them already.. If i pull up in my car, they don't even make a sound until I walk in and say something.

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

That just depends on which way the horse is facing and if it's not my horse..hehehe

If we pulled up in my jeep, they'd know it was me and would all have their heads out calling out to us..I can get to the start of the driveway to the barn check the mail and can hear them already.. If i pull up in my car, they don't even make a sound until I walk in and say something.

This reminds me of Scarlett, my friend's dog. She's fairly protective of her humans and happy to bark up a storm for strangers. It took a while for me to gain her trust, a process that was greatly accelerated by offering her treats (a method that works on me as well). She knows how to open the front door of her house, both to enter and exit. She finally got to the point she could recognize my cars (either my old wagon or the Miata) and rocket out of the house to get her treat, putting her paws up on the passenger sill if the window was open.

I replaced my wagon just before the start of the pandemic and don't see her much these days. If I pull in the driveway in the SUV, she starts barking and won't stop until I spend a moment to calm her down. If I pull up in the Miata, she's on me in no time, looking for her treat. It's clear to me that she finds my cars more memorable than me.

B*tch.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Madelaine McMasters

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

It's clear to me that she finds my cars more memorable than me.

The SUV must not smell like you still. 

[Ceka Cianci]

I think this little one has the answer to all our problems..

She is so adorable.

 

[Luna Bliss]

 

[Luna Bliss]

On 3/28/2021 at 1:27 PM, Rat Luv said:

On 3/28/2021 at 1:08 PM, Luna Bliss said:

What about the readings you do? Does the information all come from the meaning of the cards or do you receive information from....hmmm...hate to use those spooky words again like 'spiritual realm' and 'God' and 'other dimensions'.....so I'll just say...is some of the information more psychic in nature (not arriving from the typical, measurable, physical ways we derive information from)  ? 

Also, what do you see as causing the specific cards chosen in the first place?

Expand  

I don't honestly know! Maybe better to ask the people who had the readings if any of it came true or was relevant 

I see tarot as a way to get my 'noggin joggin' by suggesting ideas I wouldn't normally think of when approaching a problem.  I know some readers disagree and think there are psychic powers or spirits involved (some people say leave your cards on a window sill during a full moon to 'charge' them, or 'wash' them in sea salt) but I'm not sure. I hope there aren't spirits involved anyway, as I've dropped the cards on the floor a few times (I'm a bad shuffler ). I like some of it being a mystery though and not knowing myself what it all means 

Yes sometimes it's better to just go with what works and not try to figure everything out...

I had a very accurate reading once, I think I told you in your card readings thread.

[Arielle Popstar]

Dragging this back to an evolutionary perspective. Came across a good talk by a Eugenie Scott on why Science is agnostic. Best explanation I have heard:

 

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Dragging this back to an evolutionary perspective. Came across a good talk by a Eugenie Scott on why Science is agnostic. Best explanation I have heard:

 

That's an excellent explanation, from someone who's spent her life opposing the teaching of your young Earth creationism.

Don though, who introduces Eugenie's talk and comments afterwards, makes me cringe. He starts by stating that we need to decouple atheism from evolution because you turn off creationists immediately if you connect evolution to a disbelief in god. I agree.

After Eugenie's talk, Don comes back to say...

"I don't mean to ridicule creationists during debate, with the intent to pursuade them, of course that'll never work. My thoughts are more to create an atmosphere, in public opinion, that creationism is something to be laughed at, which it is."

Ouch.

Don theorizes that once creationists find themselves being mocked, not just by experts, but by everyone, they'll change their minds. He's probably right, but surely there are better ways.

[Arielle Popstar]

8 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

That's an excellent explanation, from someone who's spent her life opposing the teaching of your young Earth creationism.

Don though, who introduces Eugenie's talk and comments afterwards, makes me cringe. He starts by stating that we need to decouple atheism from evolution because you turn off creationists immediately if you connect evolution to a disbelief in god. I agree.

After Eugenie's talk, Don comes back to say...

"I don't mean to ridicule creationists during debate, with the intent to pursuade them, of course that'll never work. My thoughts are more to create an atmosphere, in public opinion, that creationism is something to be laughed at, which it is."

Ouch.

Don theorizes that once creationists find themselves being mocked, not just by experts, but by everyone, they'll change their minds. He's probably right, but surely there are better ways.

I hadn't really paid attention to Don's talking as the reference to Michael Shermer's quote of the gallup poll stats alone, points out that he is in a minority position:

and a paltry 12 percent accept the standard scientific theory that "human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process."

So Christian or not, not many people seem to find an unguided evolutionary framework to be a believable model of our origins.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

not many people seem to find an unguided evolutionary framework to be a believable model of our origins

Yeah cute. In the mean time, in the world of grown-ups...

Secret Link to the PDF that's otherwise paywalled by Nature magazine, so you can at least read what people are doing with your tax money.

[Theresa Tennyson]

11 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Don theorizes that once creationists find themselves being mocked, not just by experts, but by everyone, they'll change their minds. He's probably right, but surely there are better ways.

I take it Don doesn't have a lot of experience with humans. Mocking someone is often a very good way of making them even more sure that they're right about what they're being mocked for.

Those that are affected will just change the words they use and not be completely up front about their actual beliefs.

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I hadn't really paid attention to Don's talking as the reference to Michael Shermer's quote of the gallup poll stats alone, points out that he is in a minority position:

and a paltry 12 percent accept the standard scientific theory that "human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process."

So Christian or not, not many people seem to find an unguided evolutionary framework to be a believable model of our origins.

Given that 87% of Americans believe in some sort of God, that's not exactly surprising.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/268205/americans-believe-god.aspx

[Madelaine McMasters]

4 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

16 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Don theorizes that once creationists find themselves being mocked, not just by experts, but by everyone, they'll change their minds. He's probably right, but surely there are better ways.

I take it Don doesn't have a lot of experience with humans. Mocking someone is often a very good way of making them even more sure that they're right about what they're being mocked for.

Those that are affected will just change the words they use and not be completely up front about their actual beliefs.

While the pressure to change will be high when "everyone" is mocking someone, mockery won't get you to that tipping point. It might get you to a vastly different one, in which you get presidents you didn't expect.

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Madelaine McMasters

[Madelaine McMasters]

6 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I hadn't really paid attention to Don's talking as the reference to Michael Shermer's quote of the gallup poll stats alone, points out that he is in a minority position:

and a paltry 12 percent accept the standard scientific theory that "human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process."

So Christian or not, not many people seem to find an unguided evolutionary framework to be a believable model of our origins.

It's important to discern the level of guidance people believe in...

https://news.gallup.com/poll/261680/americans-believe-creationism.aspx

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Given that 87% of Americans believe in some sort of God, that's not exactly surprising.

I'm not sure what the other 13% of me believe in, but as an American I'm glad that I believe 87% in something! 

[Arielle Popstar]

10 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

So Christian or not, not many people seem to find an unguided evolutionary framework to be a believable model of our origins.

8 hours ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Yeah cute. In the mean time, in the world of grown-ups...

Using the fossil record to estimate the age of the last common ancestor of extant primates

 

Dumping a barely intelligible paper about a new statistical method for determining the age of the last common ancestor, is supposed to be convincing somehow? That's not the world of grown ups but the world of haughty scientists thinking everyone should be able to understand the jargon and high level maths that they use every day. Perhaps if they understood it as well as they pretend they would be able to explain it in layman terms. Is it really any wonder that those of us whose career paths don't require the use of those, just roll up our eyes and just resort to believing God did it?

[Arielle Popstar]

19 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

That's an excellent explanation, from someone who's spent her life opposing the teaching of your young Earth creationism.

Just to clarify and point something out.

Not sure if you meant your corporately or personally but for myself I have not been a Young Earth Creationist since I was 10 or 11 years old. Creationist yes, but then that should not be a problem for evolutionists as they consistently and persistently say they don't deal with abiogenesis or whatever term they use for that these days. I have no issue with long ages theologically per se but don't agree with the darwinian model of evolution.

Some of these polls posted seem to not take that in consideration and force one to either agree to young earth creationism or theistic evolution. If I was to be asked for my belief of one or the other, my response would be to choose YEC. It would be better in my mind if polls would ask firstly if one believed in an old earth vs young earth and secondly in creation or evolution.

 

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

That's not the world of grown ups but the world of haughty scientists thinking everyone should be able to understand the jargon and high level maths that they use every day.

No. That's not the world of haughty scientists thinking everyone should be able to understand the jargon.

That's just the world of grown-ups, like how it goes in the world of car mechanics or ships engineers or surgeons and how they talk to each other, while you wildly claim that these car mechanics and ships engineers and surgeons barely even understand themselves.

This is like you claiming that ship builders are full of it because the theory of fluid dynamics clashes with your world view. Here's these ship builders 'hiding behind their pretentious jargon', according to your logic.

That is the world of grown-ups that you are so embarrassingly out of touch with.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Arielle Popstar]

9 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

No. That's not the world of haughty scientists thinking everyone should be able to understand the jargon.

That's just the world of grown-ups, like how it goes in the world of car mechanics or ships engineers or surgeons and how they talk to each other, while you wildly claim that these car mechanics and ships engineers and surgeons barely even understand themselves.

This is like you claiming that ship builders are full of it because the theory of fluid dynamics clashes with your world view. Here's these ship builders hiding behind their pretentious jargon.

That is the world of grown-ups that you are so embarrassingly out of touch with.

Nice try but as I am a mechanical technician/technologist by training and used to spend quite a bit of time in past with competition mud truckers and backyard mechanics, I can from experience say that evolutionary fanboys, especially the atheistic ones, are a class unto themselves when it comes to the airs of superiority brandished about when they have found someone to mock.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

mud truckers and backyard mechanics

Nice, comparing scientists who publish their findings in Nature to a bunch of amateurs. That's the journal in which landmark scientific findings were published, like the discovery of the neutron, nuclear fission, the structure of DNA, the first molecular protein structure, plate tectonics, pulsars, the human genome.

I'm starting to believe you're just spouting this nonsense with the sole purpose of angering people.

Well, that's easily stopped. You're going on ignore. Bye.

[Rowan Amore]

It's sort of like citing a dubious website with a myriad of useless numbers that some unknown person or persons has correlated into a graph to use as your basis for what are facts?

Is it like that?

 2 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

That's not the world of grown ups but the world of haughty scientists thinking everyone should be able to understand the jargon and high level maths that they use every day.