Is BOTs traffic gaming SERIOUSLY breaking Second Life search?

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

No one could ever believe your statements of good will after the constant stream of venom you've unleashed on the forums but I don't care. It's precisely because I don't rely on traffic that I am raising the brokenness of search because it cannot be used to find things. You cannot seem to grasp that there is a world not just of greedy land barons and mendacious merchants trying to get INTO search by gaming traffic to get on top of it, but of ordinary people and a landlord who  uses search to manage properties using search TO FIND THINGS. They are two different functions. My already, existing paying tenants who already pay me money and don't need me to pitch ads to them and force myself into their view cannot find the OTHER properties I have so they can MOVE AROUND IN THEM. People using my FREE land preserve cannot go from one to another because the DIRECTORY IS BROKEN. I cannot MANAGE my land for 30L per parcel instead of paying rapacious web-based rental systems to scrape my business information for their purposes unknown. I can't do the ordinary, every day thing everyone does which is type in MARDI GRAS when you want to find a plate of cupcakes with little crowns on them. Typing in "APPLE FALL" on some bad broken days of search give me apple farms and autumn picnic locations but not that famous store. That's being broken. That's not normal. That is not about traffic.

What you are not grasping whatsoever is that none of my concern is about TRAFFIC and showing up in a list FIRST. That is completely unrelated to anything whatsoever. I am completely uninterested in any number on the corner of my parcels of land which are almost never over 100 or 200, i.e. irrelevant. I am not talking about traffic, which is needed to show up on search. I AM TALKING ABOUT SEARCH AS A DIRECTORY TO FIND THE ANSWER TO QUERIES USING EXACT PHRASES.

It is about FINDING A RETURN ON AN EXACT NAME SEARCH AND GETTING A SHORT LIST OF RETURNS TO TRAVEL TO THOSE LOCATIONS. I could post the different screenshots of what results on the TPVs (and used to result on the SL viewer) and its neat and crisp of 100 or 120 lines showing "Ravenglass Rentals" at 100 locations. I could contrast that with a search on the broken viewer with "Ravenglass Rentals" that shows up 5237 items with other people's rentals (that never happened if the search was for RAVENGLASS), things that aren't rentals at all (random pieces of land not put in search)

I don't care if I show up on a search for "rentals" because...I don't. There are too many rentals in SL and you can't seem to grasp the enormity of this field of data and the very limited possible. Your nattering on and on with this hectoring, superior tone about traffic as if I was running a fishing game with magic fishing poles wanting to get noticed more than the other guy with magic fishing poles and obsessed with traffic like a witless child lets me know that you just can't grasp the simple problem here: search is about finding things. It's the other side of the equation. It's not about getting into search to be noticed by others finding things. I want to find "Poland" when I type in "Poland" and not 6000 things that are mainly not "Poland".

I realize this isn't something you can believe or trust because you are so skewed toward cynical hatred here, but I am not concerned about exposure. I don't need to go to weekend Ted talks to learn from other businesses in a business incubator about how I can maximize my traffic. I have too many customers and can't handle them all because I can't stay online all day. That's why they are on SELF-SERVICE so I do not need "exposure". If they come by using search and can read a notecard at a 12-year-old's level, they have found themselves a home because I have open land, with open groups -- try to imagine such a fantastic thing.

I used to have a big apartment building that had a sign downstairs that said 'YOU MUST READ AT A 12 YEAR OLD'S LEVEL AND BE ABLE TO RIGHT CLICK ON A BUTTON TO LIVE IN THIS APARTMENT AND IF YOU CANNOT PLEASE LEAVE." That got their attention. I can't tell you the millions of people who called me to ask if I could send them a group invite to see the apartments -- they were open and they didn't need them like they do in so many island bunkers. I can't tell you how many people can't right click on a teleport button and go to the floor numbered. I can't tell you how many people can't grasp through the naked eye, let alone through a zoom with ctr-shift, that the first floor of this box in a virtual world is absolutely identical to the other 12 boxes stacked above it to make homes so that they already know what those floors look like. I tore down that building long ago because it was too crazy-making listening to uneducated entitlement happy brats all day who could not read at a 12-year-old's level, figure out that the box they were in was like the other boxes, right click on a button, and go up to a floor and pay a rental cube.

When you have cheap rentals, you really don't need Search. Search comes to you spilling through every crack, flying, walking, TP'd in by girlfriends fresh from the disco floor. That is, ,you don't need Search to be TRAFFIC -- A SEPARATE CONCEPT ENTIRELY -- to be discovered, putting you at the top of the list. What you need is SEARCH -- real, functional search, so that a person looking in a DIRECTORY can see, oh, that one is the waterfront for $200, but that other one is the skybox for $700, one is in mature, the other is in PG, hmm, what should I pick. It's search for -- wait for it! -- INFORMATION enabling CHOICE which is already AFTER a warm leader and often even after a sale, because what I try to maximize is moving from one house to another by RETURNING the cancellation fee so that the tenant isn't bilked out of a day's rent because they found something they liked better.

Your horrifically condescending screed about what "people are trying to tell me" about "traffic not meaning anything" and how I need to "make a better product to be attractive" is so irrelevant to the issue I am highlighting here that I've explained adequately and you have failed to understand for 3 months that it's almost not worth bothering. Your little haughty lecture is applicable to some guy named Phil with an adult furniture store and mannequins in the back going through the routines who can't get noticed because another guy named Fred has swankier beds or prettier models. It's a lecture I've given in less snarky form myself even to my own tenants renting stores. "Traffic doesn't make sales," I tell them with my eternal mantra. "Sales make sales." I do not offer traffic on my malls -- imagine, malls, completely obsolete in many ways, due to merchant events, still functioning, and still useful to people simply because they are modest creators not at the level of the high class merchant events and without the capacity to invest in advertising campaigns or staff. I make areas where people can start a business or have a modest little gatcha resale or decorating operation and not lose their revenue to my rent. We don't need traffic. We don't get traffic. Traffic is not for sale here. A directory that enables them to find a key word that says "Christmas gatchas" or "modern at work" or "antique furniture" is what is needed for INFORMATION, not traffic. INFORMATION helps make a sale, but at a later, more sophisticated end of the equation than you are prepared to admit exists. No one will come to any property of mine because they found me on top of search -- I'm not there and don't try to be there.

They find me because they are searching for jello moulds from a gatcha machine and if one of my little stores happens to specialize in 1950s kitchenware, their key word will show up somewhere in the middle or bottom of a list. The searches for yard sale, gatcha, kitchen wares will not bring them to my property. The search "1950s jello mould" might.

Now, if I was going to make a haughty, condescending critique of my own operation, I could do it better than you by far. I could say, Prokofy, why make the Lindens provide your property management tools for you and your tenant finding aids for you? Buy a system that you run from the web with all your properties hyper-texted for your tenants to find online. Organize their hops around your properties with a web based inventory management system by the major monopolist of SL, or if you don't want to spend on that lag monster scraping data not to invade privacy but to maximize business opportunities (let's say), then use a customized or proprietary system that merely lets your people teleport around without using Lindens' broken search. Totem poles with arrow signs on them like the RP sims.

And I would reply to such a critique: but I have that TOO. These are businesses where you have to have multiple redundancies built in. You have to have search/places (or did when it worked); you have to have classifieds, you have to have signboards and portal boards from your office; you have to have your Picks; you have to have word-of-mouth, etc. etc. Everyone knows that. You must not have ever tried to run a business like this or you would grasp that in the rentals business, search, even on a good day, in this crowded field, is only one of a variety of ways that will produce a sale. 

But search has to work for people to find things, and not only to give me or somebody else a sale, but for them to explore or socialize. It's the normal life blood of a community, and one that the Lindens have expressed astounding indifference to for the last 10 years since Viewer 1.23. The Lindens want people to buy products on the Marketplace so they get the commission. They want people to buy servers.  They don't care if underneath that other people try to sell breedables or rentals. They don't feel the need to facilitate this at all. I think they should not because this is my business; I chose this business because it illustrates a principle of civil society that I wish to promote in a philosophical way in virtual worlds -- the free movement of goods, services, and ideas across frontiers. It's something so completely not about "traffic" in this vulgar way you conceive it as Crazy Eddie's Prices Which Are Insane for him to make a buck off a rube that I don't know where to start.

When you say in your final effort at a beatdown is in fact only revealing your own vulnerability -- that the Lindens know about traffic and I don't need to know; that they long ago dumbed down and crippled traffic by not making it work as it does on Google, even with a Google appliance; that they weight Marketplace searches in particular in obvious ways that serve their own corporate and social interests, you've completely missed the boat. I don't care that they do all those things because I don't need traffic, once again for the zillionth time. I need directories that work for people to search for what they are looking for. The inability for some people to admit that 30L payments for Search/Place ads are in fact ads even if they are not $100,000 classifieds is indicative. They are closer to a fee for a service to be in a minimal director rather than an investment in the attention economy that works in a rinky-dink toy world, but they are still an ad

The Lindens are usually in better faith and nicer than anybody on the forums, and they know it's broken and say it's broken without this sort of condescension that even Oz used with me 10 years ago but had shed by the time he left. They grasp that there is no traffic on my land because they've seen it for years. They know where I'm showing up in the rentals key word search -- nowhere, or at the end of the 5627-line chain. They know it's about communities where people want to be able to go from one place to another like on a train or bus using teleports and be able to find a willing buyer if they are a willing seller with key words, not traffic inflation.

I think you must not have read my posts from years even before you were born about how the Lindens changed how traffic worked because it was gamed with camping and bots and pick sales. I was one of the people lobbying AGAINST bots. I am not a guy named Phil or Fred grumbling about how my traffic pumping tricks got undermined. I never had them. I didn't have camping chairs and don't now -- who can afford to pay them out?! Search is crippled in terms of traffic now in funny ways, but still, if there is a furry club that has a traffic of 100,000 because they have good music and friendship -- not bots -- and another furry club where the people are mean and the beer has run out and only has 50,000, people can see what is on top and go to the 100,000 club. Traffic, while crippled and changed and jerked out of position to save its soul, still renders meaning at least at that primitive level.

I personally think it's fair to ask the Lindens to enable a functioning search so that I can MANAGE my land (something you can't even grasp or admit here, so obsessed are you with this primitive caricature of a loser out of touch with 10-year-old search realities who can't realize their shabby motel cabins will never gather traffic because of their peeling paint). I don't think I should have to pay for third-party tools or depart from the immersion of the virtual world to manage inworld land on an external web site. That gets costly. I think it's fair to ask the Lindens to provide the Residents with a directory where they can look up jello moulds or rainbow unicorns and TP right to them, whether they have 0 traffic or 100,000 traffic on their land description. This is so far away and really so far above your snarky "traffic" take on this that it's really not worth discussing with you in particular at all. I've gone to the length of answering this so that any others interested, and most importantly Lindens WHO TELL ME THEY ARE WORKING ON FIXING SEARCH AND NOT THAT I NEED TO WORK ON MY TRAFFIC PUMPING SKILLS, HELLO.

I do suspect that this is taking so long because they are changing the nature of search again and adding Google like features which I think are inappropriate for this tiny world. But I'm not a coder or a platform provider and there's a lot I don't know. They changed search 10 years ago because it skewed the economy for them as it was gamed and did not enable them to create real value and meaning in the economy which you need if people don't head for the exits. They grasp that people don't want to buy bad hair in ugly boxes with 100 bots perched on top of them just because they are on the top of the search page. Many sales happen today at stores THAT DO NOT EVEN PUT THEMSELVES IN SEARCH AT ALL. They don't need to, they have GROUPS which is how they make sales WHICH ARE BROKEN TOO and an entirely other story. Many sales happen at scheduled events, recurring or one-time, which people find through EXTERNAL BLOGS and not SEARCH. This conversation is about something else. It is about how there is no telephone book or directory of services in the yellow pages in this city.

 

Did you actually read anything I posted, or possibly consider that my response was actually directed to the OP's inquiry and not your specific problem (which is a grid wide problem for many)? Or does the world still revolve around you and only you in your neck of the woods, so all topics must relate to you personally, lest you make them so? You nearly always assume everyone is addressing you and your issues when most of the time, they aren't, lol. It's really weird and I have yet to actually understand it, not that I have to, of course. Even when people agree with you, you seem hell bent on believing they don't, then arguing about it. I have no clue why. But, I don't have to know why, and you certainly don't have to change, for anyone, including myself. Keep being you  

 

I use search constantly, personally, who knows how many times a day I really use it when I'm on, but it's a lot. I wander the grid a lot. I KNOW it's broken, I have never once said it's not broken. I have been adamantly saying it is broken, has been broken, and needs more attention from LL for a very, very, very long time. My post, and nothing within my post, had anything at all to do with your issue with search.

Most of the time, when I personally search for something, I actually can find it. But, that is probably because I use a different viewer than you do, which we all already know and I am not in any way judging you for, because you have your reasons for not wanting to use it (it is LL's fault their viewer doesn't work as it should, not the users' fault, not your fault, not my fault, but LL's fault, period). I tend to search places for places, people for people and groups for groups. Sometimes I search for very specific terms, such as a specific name, place, etc.. and sometimes I search for more non-specific stuff, depends on my mood. That's how I personally use search and find things, and unless someone/something/some place isn't listed in search at all, I nearly always find it, or at least I think I do. I have had little issue with it. Despite my own experience, I do know that, overall, search is still very much broken. I understand how much it frustrates other people. I understand how problematic it can be for business owners. I can understand how infuriating, irritating and frustrating it can be, because LL has yet to actually fix it even though they know all of these things. )I need to put that emphasis there because I understand that MY personal experience is not that of others, nor would I ever suggest it is. This is merely MY experience, I know that yours is not the same). I, nor anyone else here on the forums, actually have/has an answer that will please anyone, or even really address the issue. Only LL can fix it, and, clearly, it's not that high of a priority for them. It's one of the areas in which they are severely lacking, especially when it comes to communicating the problem, and communicating with people about the problem. 

The OP's entire premise was very much  about promotion and traffic, not search. Your problem is, while occasionally somewhat related, not the same thing.

My post was addressing the OP, not you. (this part is super important....super super important)

Edited February 28, 2021 by Tari Landar

[Wili Clip]

Actually I am these days upgrading my very 1st system that I built in SL and is to this day working well. It has been in service of various SL businesses. I am adding categories into my ad system so that landowners will be able to decide themselves what they want to promote on their land (going towards targeted advertising - this plugs in very well with word of mouth).

So from business standpoint to those who think that I would benefit if the traffic metric became more significant for search ranking under keywords I can say that my business will actually benefit more if SL search becomes even more dysfunctional and it becomes even harder to find things in SL for people.

Second Life is like a giant 3D desert with few oasis (with water) who provide genuine value. And if LL doesn't lead new users towards the highest value then SL will not reach its growth potential.

You all also have to be aware that most of the dysfunctions that Linden Lab creates are always business opportunities for SL entrepreneurs. I am coning the term SLpreneurs. It us the content creators who are making Second Life alive and keeping it relevant. 

What is a good entrepreneur if not someone who looks for opportunities in the markets and creates a product or service that fills market gaps or niches. Offers a product or service that caters to human desires, fixes some problem or helps other people or businesses to make more money or reach their goals. My focus has always been on designing and building systems that can benefit everyone.

I am a programmer, I have a mind of an engineer, I have experience working with algorithms and I can tell you that traffic as a metric will always be a part of a search rank pointing system that determines position of search results based on keywords.

Because among 1000 of sellers of "sausages" you need to have a pointing system to determine whose sausage is the best sausage that most people will like and want to find. People when they look for sausage always want to find the best most tasty sausage to eat (people pursue maximum utility - max satisfaction). The foot traffic (where most people go) is the most relevant metric for pointing the "sausage" as keyword to determine whose sausage stand should appear in search 1st.

Utility maximisation - refers to the concept that individuals and firms seek to get the highest satisfaction from their economic decisions.

Profoky described it also in similar simple terms for everyone to be able to understand. You can not have a search being functional if it does not contain traffic. 🤪

Traffic matters whether you like it or not. It is pointless to argue about it. Only an ignorant person would think that traffic is irrelevant. You can lower its significance (and tweak through time without telling everyone because then they will start gaming it). Let everyone believe that it doesn't matter while you still use it.

That is why exact workings of search algorithms are secrets and even Google engineers keep tweaking it so it can not be gamed. If I was Linden Lab I'd let everyone believe its significance is small but through time I'd fine tune it to find the most optimal spot.

This is why I opened the topic and I am making a viable argument that bot traffic gaming is breaking SL search. Even a small pressure of LL against traffic gamers will lead to significant improvements.

I care for Second Life. I spent 10 years of my life. Second Life is my real business, my real profession and I don't want to feel that I wasted my life with SL. So at one point I have decided that I am going to keep trying to improve Second Life and create a movement of SL businesses and business partners and communities.

If LL will not fix things then we will fix and improve them ourselves. LL doesn't need to be afraid of us or stop or prevent our rise and growth. We are doing things to benefit Second Life and help SL grow to its full potential. Linden Lab will only benefit from this. I explained this to one of the product managers of Linden Lab. We are together in this and our interests are aligned and we are like business partners. Our success mutually depends on each others success.

I believe none of you here on this forum who is doing any kind of business for the last 10 - 17 years want to feel like you wasted a big portion of your life in Second Life. Trust me even employees of Linden Lab don't want to feel that they wasted their time and potential with LL / SL. So keep thriving and doing what you learned to do best looking for solutions without counting on LL to fix anything. We're successful because we adapted to such an environment. We are patient with LL and always ready to cooperate, be constructive and build together.

We know Second Life from very close because we're the ones running businesses in here and our lives depend on success and longevity of Second Life. We care for Second Life.

We need to unite, stand together and brainstorm, discuss what we can do and the ways how we can improve Second Life. I am not a communist (that made me laugh) - I am also not hardcore cut throat capitalist after gain at all cost. I am a builder.

I have strategically grown the biggest community in SL to be able to grow or benefit hundreds of other smaller communities. My sim is fully rented out for months, there is always something happening on the sim and little green dots are moving (yes the sim has lag but that is because lag mainly comes with the people). I don't have plans to get more sims - rentals are not my business - my plan is to keep developing systems to help other businesses and communities to grow. 10 years ago when I 1st rented Business Park I've always had a vision for it to become a center where new businesses are born. As I gained skills, knowledge and experience through years I try to use all that to connect with other entrepreneurs and help them grow in a way that we all grow.

I recently created 1st product in collaboration with another programmer. She updated her chessboard for me so that I could build a SL chess ranking - traffic system on top of her chessboard. We both benefits and little to no trust was needed between us to cooperate.

Maybe the SL forum is not a place to find fellow builders of the virtual world. I am already finding them and will find them more inside Second Life. We are building and its fun!

Anyways I am off topic... need to get some sleep. I wish you all well. *Hi5*

 

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Wili Clip

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

Did you actually read anything I posted, or possibly consider that my response was actually directed to the OP's inquiry and not your specific problem (which is a grid wide problem for many)? Or does the world still revolve around you and only you in your neck of the woods, so all topics must relate to you personally, lest you make them so? You nearly always assume everyone is addressing you and your issues when most of the time, they aren't, lol. It's really weird and I have yet to actually understand it, not that I have to, of course. Even when people agree with you, you seem hell bent on believing they don't, then arguing about it. I have no clue why. But, I don't have to know why, and you certainly don't have to change, for anyone, including myself. Keep being you  

 

I use search constantly, personally, who knows how many times a day I really use it when I'm on, but it's a lot. I wander the grid a lot. I KNOW it's broken, I have never once said it's not broken. I have been adamantly saying it is broken, has been broken, and needs more attention from LL for a very, very, very long time. My post, and nothing within my post, had anything at all to do with your issue with search.

Most of the time, when I personally search for something, I actually can find it. But, that is probably because I use a different viewer than you do, which we all already know and I am not in any way judging you for, because you have your reasons for not wanting to use it (it is LL's fault their viewer doesn't work as it should, not the users' fault, not your fault, not my fault, but LL's fault, period). I tend to search places for places, people for people and groups for groups. Sometimes I search for very specific terms, such as a specific name, place, etc.. and sometimes I search for more non-specific stuff, depends on my mood. That's how I personally use search and find things, and unless someone/something/some place isn't listed in search at all, I nearly always find it, or at least I think I do. I have had little issue with it. Despite my own experience, I do know that, overall, search is still very much broken. I understand how much it frustrates other people. I understand how problematic it can be for business owners. I can understand how infuriating, irritating and frustrating it can be, because LL has yet to actually fix it even though they know all of these things. )I need to put that emphasis there because I understand that MY personal experience is not that of others, nor would I ever suggest it is. This is merely MY experience, I know that yours is not the same). I, nor anyone else here on the forums, actually have/has an answer that will please anyone, or even really address the issue. Only LL can fix it, and, clearly, it's not that high of a priority for them. It's one of the areas in which they are severely lacking, especially when it comes to communicating the problem, and communicating with people about the problem. 

The OP's entire premise was very much  about promotion and traffic, not search. Your problem is, while occasionally somewhat related, not the same thing.

My post was addressing the OP, not you. (this part is super important....super super important)

Nothing you ever say can be taken in good faith because of your long history of cynical beatdowns of people making sincere posts. Since your post came right after mine but one and I'm in this thread multiple times it is reasonable to expect you're answering me.

I marvel that you can imagine that you can plead innocent by saying you're replying to the OP and not me and that this is "super super important"!

"when I was TPing around SL trying to find some vibrant communities".

His concern was not about FINDING things not how he "looked in search" himself. His concern was about the pernicious effect of bots on the economy if people are driven to purchasing by fake news.

Because you are condescendingly replying to him as if he posted his woes about low traffic and slow business for his fishing game, which isn't the case. I don't at all agree with his "business model" or plans for "incubation" but I can readily see that he didn't write in his OP "oh woe is me, my traffic is down and business is off" but -- and this is super super important":

Last time I was using SL viewer search to try to find some sims with vibrant communities and when I TP-ed to lands appeared as the top search results I found lands with no people on them or just bots. I always look to tp to lands that on search listing appear on top and with highest traffic number in hope to find people to meet and to talk to. I believe its same case for everyone else. We're in SL mostly to interact with other people while sharing same 3D space/environment. 3D worlds that are empty (SANSAR) fail.

In my opinion SL search is highly dysfunctional and it is not really serving its purpose. I also think general SL community and everyone who cares for Second Life should keep putting this topic in focus.

How is that statement about a need for him to brush up on his SEO skills, front his merchandise, and oh, make a better, compelling product? It's about community and finding things, if we take him at his word that he does care about this, and doesn't use this ostensible concern as a shill under which are tucked his fishing games. I actually don't think he's doing that.

Your "empathy" for those concerned about business involves a supposed commiseration with the sufferers of the standard SL viewer because the Lindens know something is broken but won't make it a priority.

But you can't explain then why the Lindens hurried to fix this within 30 hours in 2018, but have left it for 3 months today. You aren't curious about how they might be up to one of their life-changing alterations of search once again as they were before with Viewer 2. You imagine it won't effect YOU.

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Chaser Zaks]

My honest opinion, this concern seems disingenuous. You worry that bots are causing traffic to be calculated for the wrong reason, yet operate a system which attempts to monetizes and manipulates traffic.

Agents that are marked as bots will not count towards traffic, and agents that are connecting with specific viewers(IIRC) get flagged as bots for that session.

My view is that traffic is not something that should be sold, traded, or otherwise manipulated as it throws off genuine interest statistics of a location. Traffic should be earned for what the region or parcel is, not through bots, camping chairs, bought by paying residents to visit locations, or any other means.

As someone who loves statistics and is working on a a project that needs accurate statistics, manipulation of stats is one of the worst enemies as I have to go and rectify those values, often deducting up to 75% of a regions popularity value if traffic manipulation is detected.

This seems more like "I fear bot traffic is harming my business model", rather than a genuine concern over the accuracy of traffic.

(Don't take this as me hating or disliking you, I'm just very blunt/forward with what I say.)

[Qie Niangao]

12 hours ago, Wili Clip said:

12 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Oh, no you misunderstand. I'd be fine with bots in your games. They're at least as interesting as the non-bot players.

Sorry.. I don't understand what you mean or what you want to say. I feel some kind of passive hostility from you. I don't know you and I've never been disrespectful to you.

Really? It's pretty simple. Others have said it already.

1 hour ago, Chaser Zaks said:

My honest opinion, this concern seems disingenuous. You worry that bots are causing traffic to be calculated for the wrong reason, yet operate a system which attempts to monetizes and manipulates traffic.

I might not say "disingenuous" exactly. I think it's just incredibly naive, like the least self-aware posts ever.

Your stuff trashes traffic for any useful search purpose except maybe fish hunters looking for the company of other fish hunters. You're turning a profit by making the traffic metric crap, and now you whine about how others use bots to degrade the metric without cutting you in on the moral hazard?

And you have the temerity to start a thread patting yourself on the back for your business acumen, and another besmirching any SL resident with an imaginative persona.

And now you even threaten to "upgrade" your networked advertising system that despoils the Mainland, yet another venture profiting off the tragedy of the commons. Well, upgrade away; just this week I saw a roadside microparcel with one of your adboard eyesores still hawking Lumiya, which has been off the Google Play Store for how many years now?

Happy now? Or is that still too "passive?"

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

Temporarily putting bots aside, the traffic figure is the topic here, isn't it? Temporarily putting the (borken) web-search aside, we're back at legacy search, and the question is, are the traffic figures on it going to mislead sensation-seekers if they go for the top of the ordered list?

Most of the places with 5-figure traffic seem to be full of people standing around silent (chatting in IM I guess), and in what way are they different from bots? Only in that they will possibly reply to an IM.

Places that have mostly (only) bots tend to have traffic figures in the mid-to-high 4-figures, and these places typically have 5 bots. They're just like the standarounds in the first class, except they don't tell you to f-off if you IM and say "Hello, can I park my bicycle here?"

Down at the bottom of the traffic rankings are sites that have none to some people some of the time. They tend to be more interesting than the top category and have few to no malls or adverts, so they are more interesting to explore.

So it's coming down to who is going to get cheated by TP-ing to sites that come top of the lists? Shoppers? Nope, they got malls for miles. IM-chatters? Nope, everybody's doing it. People looking for RP? Yes, but some would say it serves them right

I can't see how it actually makes any real difference having a few bots around.

[Tari Landar]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Nothing you ever say can be taken in good faith because of your long history of cynical beatdowns of people making sincere posts.

Shall I introduce you to the pot? Literally everything you post is cynical, everything, lol. You have a much longer history of adding nothing but cynical posts to the forums than I. I'm not sure why you believe otherwise. But, like I said, keep being you.

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Since your post came right after mine but one and I'm in this thread multiple times it is reasonable to expect you're answering me.

No, really, that's not a reasonable expectation for most folks. My post was clearly aimed at someone concerned about traffic numbers, like the OP. Your post was not concerned with traffic numbers, therefore, not addressed to you. It seems pretty simple to me. 

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Because you are condescendingly replying to him as if he posted his woes about low traffic and slow business for his fishing game, which isn't the case. I don't at all agree with his "business model" or plans for "incubation" but I can readily see that he didn't write in his OP "oh woe is me, my traffic is down and business is off" but -- and this is super super important":

I didn't do any of that, try reading it again without your cynical shades on. I actually praised his system, his products, because they've been quite largely successful for a very long time. I don't have to personally like someone. and certainly not all of the time,  to be able to recognize the work they've put into something, or be able to contribute to a thread. Not everyone gets their hackles up about something and then forever remains that way.   

His concern, along with bots, is about traffic. I read through every single reply, not only his, before I even posted. A huge amount of focus was being placed on traffic. I, quite directly, addressed traffic, specifically. 

 

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Your "empathy" for those concerned about business involves a supposed commiseration with the sufferers of the standard SL viewer because the Lindens know something is broken but won't make it a priority.

Yes, I do commiserate with them, whether or not I have personally experienced it. I can certainly understand why something would be so frustrating. Many, many people are quite capable of doing the same. What an odd thing to get on me about, lmao.

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But you can't explain then why the Lindens hurried to fix this within 30 hours in 2018, but have left it for 3 months today. You aren't curious about how they might be up to one of their life-changing alterations of search once again as they were before with Viewer 2. You imagine it won't effect YOU.

 

I can't explain why they haven't fixed it, no, and neither can you or anyone else, so we're in the same boat on that one, aren't we? I am curious as to how they intend to fix it, like I said, it's problematic for people and has been for some time, so, yes I am curious. How on earth do you know what I imagine? I never once said it wouldn't or couldn't affect me. Just because it hasn't yet, doesn't mean it never will. Like I said, even when people agree with you, you'll argue til you're blue in the face that they don't, lol.

Have an awesome day  

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Tari Landar

[eyeye Afterthought]

20 hours ago, Wili Clip said:

I would also like to point out that because some people are successfully gaming the traffic stats with bots that forces other people who would otherwise not do it into doing it too. So if you don't fight the problem the problem persists and just keeps growing bigger and creates market wide dysfunctions.

It doesn't force anyone.

Everyone has freedom of choice.

 

[Finite]

People still play on mainland? Only time I've been to mainland is by accident and I feel like I got sent back to 2008 whenever I do go. Am I missing something?

Edit: Sorry if this came off as bashing. If there's something going on on mainland that's worthwhile, I'd certainly like to explore it.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Finite

[Lillith Hapmouche]

30 minutes ago, Finite said:

People still play on mainland? Only time I've been to mainland is by accident and I feel like I got sent back to 2008 whenever I do go. Am I missing something?

Edit: Sorry if this came off as bashing.

It did, yeah.

[Finite]

7 minutes ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

It did, yeah.

Could you quote me without modifying my post to amplify your point?

[Chaser Zaks]

1 hour ago, Finite said:

People still play on mainland? Only time I've been to mainland is by accident and I feel like I got sent back to 2008 whenever I do go. Am I missing something?

Edit: Sorry if this came off as bashing. If there's something going on on mainland that's worthwhile, I'd certainly like to explore it.

As a mainland parcel owner, mainland is a bit.. chaotic, and there are quite a few old builds still around. I kind of like seeing some old builds, they have a bit of charm to them(unlike the ground level skyboxes). I mostly like it for the roads and large open space(until 0 second security orbs smack me).

Personally I hope LL one day has the moles finish up Zindra, maybe do a bit of modernization here and there too. But this is a discussion for another topic.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

45 minutes ago, Finite said:

Could you quote me without modifying my post to amplify your point?

What's your  problem? You asked whether people still "play" on Mainland, 'cause you find it like being sent back to 2008 and then said "sorry" if that came off as bashing, minus the bit of something worthwhile. So?

[Finite]

2 minutes ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

What's your  problem? You asked whether people still "play" on Mainland, 'cause you find it like being sent back to 2008 and then said "sorry" if that came off as bashing, minus the bit of something worthwhile. So?

Not a problem. Just asked that you not modify my posts when quoting me. There were two replies to the same post. One was productive and yours wasn't it. Regardless as Chaser stated, we are both off topic. If you have some issue with me you can IM me if you like.

[Silent Mistwalker]

11 hours ago, Finite said:

Well if you do promote then maybe its your attitude? Word of mouth is another form of advertising. However it works both ways. Assuming you treat your customers similar to how you talk to people here I'd guess many wouldn't have a lot of good things to say about you. PS Ive been around SL nearly as long as you have. Coming up on 15 years next month. And I'm not sure that 17 years works in your favor. 

 

 

This is Prok you are dealing with. Prok never changes and is never wrong. But! If you can manage to wade through the massive word salads there are some gems in there worth consideration. 

As for search, I've been using it the same way for 16 years and never had any trouble finding what I wanted as long as it currently exists in SL. The only time I use traffic as a factor is if I am looking for a place to socialize that is NOT a club.

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

ut you can't explain then why the Lindens hurried to fix this within 30 hours in 2018, but have left it for 3 months today.

 

I'm thinking it was delayed because of the negotiations for the acquisition of LL. The dust still hasn't settled yet. 

Not that it does much good but did you file a JIRA?

[Lillith Hapmouche]

34 minutes ago, Finite said:

Just asked that you not modify my posts when quoting me.

Bullocks. Quoting is meant to shorten it to the relevant sections of the text you are quoting. Your post isn't modified at all, by the way. But whatever.

Back "on topic" of Mr. "I game traffic" complaining about "ugh, others do the same as I do!!!111!".

[Solar Legion]

51 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

I'm thinking it was delayed because of the negotiations for the acquisition of LL. The dust still hasn't settled yet. 

Not that it does much good but did you file a JIRA?

Last I knew, they can't file a JIRA - all thanks to acting in the same manner there as we see here.

You'd think that such an action - with others included (if I recall they were once banned from the forum during a time when such bans were not connected to the primary/in world account) - would have been a bit of a wake up call.

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Last I knew, they can't file a JIRA - all thanks to acting in the same manner there as we see here.

You'd think that such an action - with others included (if I recall they were once banned from the forum during a time when such bans were not connected to the primary/in world account) - would have been a bit of a wake up call.

Yeah that was my way of asking without asking directly (embarrassment) because I wasn't sure if that were still true. I don't intentionally ask embarrassing question. I do try to word them in such a way that it leaves the other person a way to save face by not giving a full answer. In this case, a simple no. I know Prok doesn't really care, but, well, I do. This planet and everything on it, in it, and around it are all I have and I will fight to the death to preserve it.*

 

 

*One exception. Man made things and it would depend on the thing. Example: Mt Rushmore Monument... bye bye.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[relo101]

I am surprised to see so many people claim that that the search is broken and irrelevant. Most,if not all, of the people that I know use the search function to find new places Those same people use Firestorm as their main viewer; where the search works based on traffic count. The search function is not irrelevant.

 

I think Firestorm should just get rid of it completely.

Edited February 28, 2021 by relo101

[Solar Legion]

12 minutes ago, relo101 said:

I am surprised to see so many people claim that that the search is broken and irrelevant. Most,if not all, of the people that I know use the search function to find new places Those same people use Firestorm as their main viewer; where the search works based on traffic count. The search function is not irrelevant.

 

I think Firestorm should just get rid of it completely.

Firestorm has two, wholly different Search systems: The "modern" Web Search system and the Legacy Search system (shown as individual tabs for each main category). It is the Web Search that is - apparently - suffering.

Furthermore the Legacy system defaults to being sorted by Traffic - highest to lowest. It can also be sorted by Name/Title in Ascending or Descending order. Traffic count has long been an utterly irrelevant metric and by all rights should have been nuked from the entire system (in terms of being sortable), though such would defeat part of the purpose of having the Legacy system in the first place: Allowing users who grew used to the original system the ability to continue to use it.

It being seemingly unaffected by the latest kerfluffle is little more than a happy, circumstantial accident.

Frankly if you are paying more attention to the Traffic count given by the Search results as opposed to the Name/Title and Description ... you're doing it quite wrong. Traffic tells you nothing useful whatsoever - no, not even so called "popularity".

[relo101]

1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

Firestorm has two, wholly different Search systems: The "modern" Web Search system and the Legacy Search system (shown as individual tabs for each main category). It is the Web Search that is - apparently - suffering.

Furthermore the Legacy system defaults to being sorted by Traffic - highest to lowest. It can also be sorted by Name/Title in Ascending or Descending order. Traffic count has long been an utterly irrelevant metric and by all rights should have been nuked from the entire system (in terms of being sortable), though such would defeat part of the purpose of having the Legacy system in the first place: Allowing users who grew used to the original system the ability to continue to use it.

It being seemingly unaffected by the latest kerfluffle is little more than a happy, circumstantial accident.

Frankly if you are paying more attention to the Traffic count given by the Search results as opposed to the Name/Title and Description ... you're doing it quite wrong. Traffic tells you nothing useful whatsoever - no, not even so called "popularity".

I know but, from my experience, people still choose to use the legacy system on firestorm to find new places even though they know its full of bots. That is just the simple truth. We all know it doesn't mean a place is popular but those high numbers still attract actual players and now, I, and others, look at it as a potential place where you can meet a lot of actual players despite the bots.

[Solar Legion]

1 minute ago, relo101 said:

I know but, from my experience, people still choose to use the legacy system on firestorm to find new places even though they know its full of bots. That is just the simple truth. We all know it doesn't mean a place is popular but those high numbers still attract actual players and now, I, and others, look at it as a potential place where you can meet a lot of actual players despite the bots.

In the interest - and assumption - that you might have missed something in my response: I am saying that Legacy Search can sort by more than just Traffic. Not by much more mind but the option is there.

As for the attraction that those high numbers possess ... It's an ingrained/learned behavior, fostered by several external, larger scale Search Engines and Schoolyard behaviors. We're taught that "popularity" is meaningful.

To each their own I suppose .... I just wish people would stop pretending that particular metric carries some greater meaning/weight. Heck, some of the best places I've found in my time using Second Life were found by perusing the Search results and actually reading the descriptions - a behavior that never changed through the time between when what we now call Legacy Search was the only Search and now. I have pretty much never used the Web Search in the way some seem to think it is "useful" for.

Which brings me to my own gripe on Search ... Entries where the Description/Information field contains nothing but a comma separated list of keywords. With very few exceptions, such places are just not worth a second glance.

[relo101]

38 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

In the interest - and assumption - that you might have missed something in my response: I am saying that Legacy Search can sort by more than just Traffic. Not by much more mind but the option is there.

As for the attraction that those high numbers possess ... It's an ingrained/learned behavior, fostered by several external, larger scale Search Engines and Schoolyard behaviors. We're taught that "popularity" is meaningful.

To each their own I suppose .... I just wish people would stop pretending that particular metric carries some greater meaning/weight. Heck, some of the best places I've found in my time using Second Life were found by perusing the Search results and actually reading the descriptions - a behavior that never changed through the time between when what we now call Legacy Search was the only Search and now. I have pretty much never used the Web Search in the way some seem to think it is "useful" for.

Which brings me to my own gripe on Search ... Entries where the Description/Information field contains nothing but a comma separated list of keywords. With very few exceptions, such places are just not worth a second glance.

Sorry, I meant the classic search feature that does go by traffic. I'm glad you were still able to understand the context clues.

I'm sure most people read descriptions but that still doesn't take away the fact that the high traffic areas get the most attention even when it comes to which descriptions are read first. A high traffic count does carry weight. More people actually visit these artificially high traffic areas in hopes of meeting other players who, like them, come because the place has a high traffic count.  I would say the majority of Firestorm users refer to search traffic ranking as a major role in choose what sim to visit.  Reading descriptions play a role as well but people are likely to read the higher ranking descriptions with 22000 views before they look at the 3000 sim. And the truth is, most people don't make it halfway past the first page before they find a place that fits their needs.

[Wili Clip]

2 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Frankly if you are paying more attention to the Traffic count given by the Search results as opposed to the Name/Title and Description ... you're doing it quite wrong. Traffic tells you nothing useful whatsoever - no, not even so called "popularity".

17 hours ago, Wili Clip said:

If you are for example searching for a sausage in search and there are 1000 brands of sausages... There are always many businesses or lands claiming they have what is searched for. There is always competition to be found under specific keywords (traffic is one of the most important metrics there is for search).

Because among 1000 of sellers of "sausages" you need to have a pointing system to determine whose sausage is the best sausage that most people will like and want to find. People when they look for sausage always want to find the best most tasty sausage to eat (people pursue maximum utility - max satisfaction). The foot traffic (where most people go) is the most relevant metric for pointing the "sausage" as keyword to determine whose sausage stand should appear in search 1st.

Utility maximisation - refers to the concept that individuals and firms seek to get the highest satisfaction from their economic decisions.

Traffic matters whether you like it or not. It is pointless to argue about it. Only an ignorant person would think that traffic is irrelevant. You can lower its significance (and tweak through time without telling everyone because then they will start gaming it). Let everyone believe that it doesn't matter while you still use it.

That is why exact workings of search algorithms are secrets and even Google engineers keep tweaking it so it can not be gamed. If I was Linden Lab I'd let everyone believe its significance is small but through time I'd fine tune it to find the most optimal spot.

This is why I opened the topic and I am making a viable argument that bot traffic gaming is breaking SL search. Even a small pressure of LL against traffic gamers will lead to significant improvements.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Wili Clip