Lets create a Startup Incubator in Second Life

[Luna Bliss]

14 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

You aren't selling a product. You're selling a service. Huge difference. And in SL under LL's ToS, what you intend is not allowed as it would be too easy to use the service for money laundering according to United States federal statutes. Now, if you'd like, you can go argue with the US Department of Justice about it but I'm pretty sure they will tell you the same thing.

I sell a service here, both on the MP and inworld, and this has never been a problem.

[Wili Clip]

52 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Can you state your definition of what a ponzi scheme is?

Also, how does your system allow others to make a decent amount of money too (as opposed to only the initial players, which is what a ponzi scheme means to me) ?

Please simplify as much as possible, as my knowledge of finance is lacking.

1st of all silver mining I propose is not investing and buying a silver mine is not an investment. It is not an investment scheme. It is a game like for example Farmville on Facebook. The only difference is that silver mines are designed with ability for players / miners to re-sell them to other players at whatever price they specify. Depending on the progress of the game and general in-game market conditions players could sell their silver mines to other players at higher price they bought it from another player or on marketplace or sell at lower price.

My definition of a ponzi scheme is same as generally agreed one - a fraudulent investing scam which generates returns for earlier investors with money taken from later investors..

The purpose of the silver mining game is not to make anyone money because it is not an investment scheme. Silver Mine is a game product and its purpose is to provide entertainment to players.

Silver mines have a traffic promotion component. When a mine owner starts mining process on their mine... after every hour the mine pauses until some other player teleports to it and clicks the mine for it to make it continue its mining process/timer (in exchange the player receives a reward specified by the mine owner - reward is either a small amount of L$ or silver).

Silver is used in others games (plan is to help other content creators develop many that will use silver but with strict rules how its used - always in accordance with SL TOS). Silver that mines produce or players receive as a reward for clicking (mining) the mine is further used in other products that will be developed. For example I programmed a mmorpg game appropriate for SL where players kill monsters for L$ drops and game items. I paused it just before 1st public alpha test release. Silver is used by the owner of the game to feed the Energy Crystal with it and in exchange it recovers players HP (health power). Silver is also used as a material to produce energy for weapons. This energy players buy with L$ to be able to do more damage to monsters and earn more L$ or kill monsters faster.

The total silver that miners all together will ever be able to mine to produce is fixed. This game component is taken from how the supply of bitcoin works. Its easier to understand to those who know a bit about bitcoin supply aspect. So more there are miners mining the silver more harder it is going to be to obtain the silver. This does not mean that those who started playing the game early are benefiting on the backs of players joining later. It just means they have more silver mines than other players and are able to produce more silver. All the players will at all time have incentives to use the silver that they produce to buy more silver mines to be ranked higher on top silver miners game chart.

It is not an investment and it will never be advertised as one. If any players make L$ earnings in the game its for the same reason as some players in SL make money buying gacha items at a low price from players who want to sell it fast to then flip it and sell to someone at a 5 - 10X higher price and profit. But this profit is in silver mining game never guaranteed. The game is designed and programmed in a way so that its harder and harder to obtain more silver through time but everyone will know that at all times and buying and selling / re-selling Silver Mines for L$ will be possible for players at all times - whether player obtained the mine by buying for L$ on marketplace or got it using silver he mined himself.

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Wili Clip

[ItHadToComeToThis]

8 hours ago, Wili Clip said:

1st of all silver mining I propose is not investing and buying a silver mine is not an investment. It is not an investment scheme. It is a game like for example Farmville on Facebook. The only difference is that silver mines are designed with ability for players / miners to re-sell them to other players at whatever price they specify. Depending on the progress of the game and general in-game market conditions players could sell their silver mines to other players at higher price they bought it from another player or on marketplace or sell at lower price.

But yet, it is an investment. You have stated several times it is an investment you just haven't used the specific term "Its an investment". You have clearly stated that Person A buys a mine using lindens and then sets out that mine on their land and proceeds to use the mine to collect silver. That silver can be used to purchase products in various sims and the mines can be sold to other players. The fact the silver value gets less and the mining gets harder naturally means that people will need more mines in order to realise a higher yield of silver. Thus driving up the price of mines for those selling should they become popular and the end result is that the first wave of people pay a small amount for the mine and yield a large amount of silver. Then, sell the mine on to yet another "investor" who has to repeat the process only with twice as many mines to yield the same silver returns and is twice as out of pocket as the previous player. Aka....Ponzi....Scheme. The only person who can realise a definite product is you...the creator....wave 1 will likely realise a profit....wave 10 has no hope what so ever. Their best hope is that the market is not that popular and maybe they can break even.. You can dress it up as much as you want, write as many salad-graphs as you want....but you can't change one fact. It smells like a scam.

 

8 hours ago, Wili Clip said:

My definition of a ponzi scheme is same as generally agreed one - a fraudulent investing scam which generates returns for earlier investors with money taken from later investors..

The purpose of the silver mining game is not to make anyone money because it is not an investment scheme. Silver Mine is a game product and its purpose is to provide entertainment to players.

Then take any linden value out of the equation. Sell the mines for Linden and everything beneath operates solely on silver. Otherwise...it...is...an...investment.

 

8 hours ago, Wili Clip said:

Silver is used in others games (plan is to help other content creators develop many that will use silver but with strict rules how its used - always in accordance with SL TOS). Silver that mines produce or players receive as a reward for clicking (mining) the mine is further used in other products that will be developed. For example I programmed a mmorpg game appropriate for SL where players kill monsters for L$ drops and game items. I paused it just before 1st public alpha test release. Silver is used by the owner of the game to feed the Energy Crystal with it and in exchange it recovers players HP (health power). Silver is also used as a material to produce energy for weapons. This energy players buy with L$ to be able to do more damage to monsters and earn more L$ or kill monsters faster.

This is standard MMO stuff and in terms of programming is not all that difficult. It is not something that needs the labs approval. My only thought on this is that, if you really NEED LLs approval, then there must be something more going on than just a simple role-play game enhancing system that isn't an investment...as you state..... I have written my own currency systems for my own huds before, allowed that currency to purchase items, power upgrades, trade between players, exchanging linden for currency and not once have I needed any approval from the lab for doing so. Why do you keep throwing around these comments regarding approval from the lab, unless....there is something you are doing that you worry is considered questionable to the TOS....

 

8 hours ago, Wili Clip said:

The total silver that miners all together will ever be able to mine to produce is fixed. This game component is taken from how the supply of bitcoin works. Its easier to understand to those who know a bit about bitcoin supply aspect. So more there are miners mining the silver more harder it is going to be to obtain the silver. This does not mean that those who started playing the game early are benefiting on the backs of players joining later. It just means they have more silver mines than other players and are able to produce more silver. All the players will at all time have incentives to use the silver that they produce to buy more silver mines to be ranked higher on top silver miners game chart.

*and set the price those mines are bought at once the initial supply runs out. 

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8 hours ago, Wili Clip said:

It is not an investment and it will never be advertised as one. If any players make L$ earnings in the game its for the same reason as some players in SL make money buying gacha items at a low price from players who want to sell it fast to then flip it and sell to someone at a 5 - 10X higher price and profit. But this profit is in silver mining game never guaranteed. The game is designed and programmed in a way so that its harder and harder to obtain more silver through time but everyone will know that at all times and buying and selling / re-selling Silver Mines for L$ will be possible for players at all times - whether player obtained the mine by buying for L$ on marketplace or got it using silver he mined himself.

 

 

I believe that's called an investment.

Edited March 2, 2021 by ItHadToComeToThis

[Rowan Amore]

And just a quick Google search brought up an interesting article from a previous "investor".  Not that I believe everything I read on the internet nor do I know the reputation of the person writing the post but it does give one cause to wonder.

[ItHadToComeToThis]

Pretty sure you stated this wasn’t a thing here and yet stated it is there.

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, ItHadToComeToThis said:

Pretty sure you stated this wasn’t a thing here and yet stated it is there.

The basic definition of a ponzi  scheme.

[Jordyn McGregor]

On 2/25/2021 at 6:22 AM, LittleMe Jewell said:

Is there a TL;DR version?  It is a rough day at work and so my attention span here is limited.

EXACTLY what I was thinking!

[Coffee Pancake]

On 2/24/2021 at 9:52 AM, Wili Clip said:

A day ago I've decided to instead keep working hard its time to start working smart. I have sent an email to Linden Lab's VP of product management Patch Linden with a (detailed product description) of a new game system I plan to base my startup as a joint-stock company. So that I can raise investment capital to set up a team and develop 1st and then many more projects. Before I can make the next step I will need a formal approval of my product design by Linden Lab. So 1st step has been already made with sending formal request to LL and now waiting for reply.

And now we see why you need LL to sign off on this.

It's ... superscammyfragilisticexpialidocious

 

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

On 2/24/2021 at 2:52 PM, Wili Clip said:

I have sent an email to Linden Lab's VP of product management Patch Linden with a (detailed product description) of a new game system 

So if this gets accepted, it's official: SecondLife is a game, but if it says hello to the great wastepaper-basket, it's not a game?

Just seeking clarification.

[Silent Mistwalker]

21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I sell a service here, both on the MP and inworld, and this has never been a problem.

Depends on the services being sold. Would a judge determine your services fit the description of a ponzi scheme? No. That can't be said for Wili's get rich quick scheme. Even in SL, those who run businesses should, at least, know the basics of business law. 

[Wili Clip]

13 hours ago, ItHadToComeToThis said:

But yet, it is an investment. You have stated several times it is an investment you just haven't used the specific term "Its an investment"

I've repeatedly talked about an investment. But that investment is into a real life registered startup (shareholding) company that would be the owner of the intellectual property (a game) that is developed in Second Life.

Upon permission of Linden Lab I would develop the game to a prototype stage and set up a company if I saw there is big interest by players to play that game.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Wili Clip

[Wili Clip]

4 hours ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

So if this gets accepted, it's official: SecondLife is a game, but if it says hello to the great wastepaper-basket, it's not a game?

Just seeking clarification.

Second Life is a multi purpose virtual world platform. It can be used for education and whatever humans can imagine as long as it doesn't violate any ones rights or laws. It is a creative platform that enables people from all over the world to develop various products and services in and through use of L$ sell/trade them with other people. One of those products / services are games.

If for example a very successful game is developed and lots of people enter SL to play it then that will still not make or change Second Life into being a game. I say that if successful games are created it can actually lead towards the increased use of Second Life for all other purposes as well. 

People hang out and conduct their work wherever there is the most energy flowing. In business world if you don't have numbers you don't have anything. Growth is important because generally in all life things that don't grow... they die. It is same in tech world and for tech platforms. Growth is a natural process.

Linden Lab TOS:
https://www.lindenlab.com/legal/second-life-terms-and-conditions

I would just ask those that are not lawyers by profession or in any other way professionally connected to law to refrain from creating judgements that only legal experts can.

I am not a lawyer myself but I do know basics of law as every person who conducts any kind of business has to.

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Wili Clip

[Wili Clip]

13 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

The basic definition of a ponzi  scheme.

You are copy pasting text and presenting things out of context to try to prove your point.

But you're not taking into consideration the whole structure of the game (and not considering it systematically as a whole system). If early players are gaining more silver and benefiting more because they're able to mine more silver before more players join and make average output per each silver mine smaller that doesn't mean that players who join later will not benefit as well. Don't forget that by design players can buy and sell silver mines from other players (same as with GACHA items) at all times.

Silver is used to get more silver mines and leads towards bigger success in the game as they managed to acquire their silver mines at discount that is through the output of silver mines programmed directly into the game.

In every game that is more complex... there are different possibilities and strategies by the players that they can take to benefit.

It can not be a ponzi scheme because players are not able to sell silver for L$. They can only use silver to buy end products and services.

Goal of the game for the players is to become the biggest silver miner and there are different ways (strategies) for players to get at at that goal. The players are at all time and in every aspect of the game buying end products.

I see how some players would buy silver mines and could mistakingly think that they will or should make L$ profits. If the game is released there will be disclaimer that it is a game created for entertainment purpose.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Wili Clip

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Wili Clip said:

You are copy pasting text and presenting things out of context to try to prove your point.

 

I didn't copy and paste anything.  I was agreeing with what @ItHadToComeToThisposted which was something you said.  Most of us are seeing the point clearly enough without quotes.

[Silent Mistwalker]

34 minutes ago, Wili Clip said:

I am not a lawyer myself but I do know basics of law as every person who conducts any kind of business has to.

 

So you are familiar with all 50 States' business laws as well as the Federal in the US? Or just the business laws of the country you live in?

 

LL is in California, USA. LL must follow US/State laws. Full stop.

[Luna Bliss]

43 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

22 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I sell a service here, both on the MP and inworld, and this has never been a problem.

Depends on the services being sold. Would a judge determine your services fit the description of a ponzi scheme? No. That can't be said for Wili's get rich quick scheme. Even in SL, those who run businesses should, at least, know the basics of business law. 

Ahh ok, I thought you meant you believe it was illegal for anyone to sell a service here...but you mean within the context of a ponzi scheme.

But to your point, I'm not convinced that his game would be a ponzi scheme. I think we need clarification on exactly how he would make his money via the silver game.

 

[Wili Clip]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I didn't copy and paste anything.  I was agreeing with what @ItHadToComeToThisposted which was something you said.  Most of us are seeing the point clearly enough without quotes.

Ok you are quoting someone who is copy pasting the text from a general public presentation of the game and presenting things out of context to try to prove the point and you're agreeing with that someone. 

I don't have anything against you or the person who is copy pasting and presenting things out of context. I am merely pointing it out.

If anyone doesn't agree with me at least read my arguments and try to offer counter arguments.
 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Wili Clip

[Luna Bliss]

10 minutes ago, Wili Clip said:

I

Could you explain how you would make your money from the silver game?

[Silent Mistwalker]

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think we need clarification on exactly how he would make his money via the silver game.

It's not up to us. Only LL can decide that and they will do it within the bounds of the law as we have seen them do in the past. I've forgotten what the name of that one scheme was but as I recall it was one of the banks. It also happened to be the guy that approached me to do the logos and signage for the bank. I never got my money. I wonder if his RL last name wasn't Trump.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[Wili Clip]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

Could you explain how you would make your money from the silver game?

Through selling silver mines on SL marketplace for L$. And also to start the mining cycle of silver mines it takes ingredients that players buy at a fixed L$ price.

[Luna Bliss]

On 3/1/2021 at 8:37 AM, Wili Clip said:

You read it in a wrong way. The silver mine owners are selling their mines to others for L$ (like GACHA).
While silver that miners get can be used to buy more silver mines from the game company for silver at set amount. The plan is to create an ecosystem of games that offer end products that players can use their mined silver for.

My team of programmers & designers that I want to set up would be creating API's and free script libraries together with game scripting open source community established around it all to make it easier for other content creators to make games within ecosystem we create.

I think that's a great idea....a system to allow others to create their own games. Creating games is intimidating for some, and a system much easier than creating games in Unity and applicable to those who love to play in SL could be a valuable asset.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Wili Clip said:

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Could you explain how you would make your money from the silver game?

Through selling silver mines on SL marketplace for L$. And also to start the mining cycle of silver mines it takes ingredients that players buy at a fixed L$ price.

It only seems fair that you would earn $ via the work involved in creating a game that others could enjoy, much as your fishing game does.

[Mollymews]

looking at the description of the silver mining game then I can't see how it is a ponzi scheme nor how it could be seen as a multi-level marketing scheme. Both of which are illegal in some RL jurisdictions

when there is no cost to people who come and touch the mine (start play mining for a no-cost-to-them reward) then is design-wise no different to a  money tree, midnight mania board, etc

if there is no output or operational difference between Early Mover Mine and Late Mover Mine am not sure tho why anyone would want to buy a silver mine from another player, unless the trade is done at a price less than a mine that can be bought from the game operator

i think that if a market in trading mines was to flourish then mines would need some 'rare' or 'common' aspect to them. Rare meaning that this mine produces more silver than a common mine over the same time period. Another form of rare could be that when a mine is touched by a miner player then the mining period is longer than in a common