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1 minute ago, Nalates Urriah said:

It does seem odd to me that most government agencies take the same stance that a CHEAP decades old medicine

Thoughts and prayers are cheap too .. vaccines on the other hand are proven so effective, it doesn't matter what you believe for them to work.

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11 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

It does seem odd to me that most government agencies take the same stance that a CHEAP decades old medicine well tolerated by billions of people is consistently considered ineffective for CoVid. But their recommended barely tested very expensive experimental vaccines are claimed the solution and all else should be banned or strongly contraindicated at the least.

Dexamethasone is cheap, decades old, is routinely carried by mountain climbers and has been approved and used for COVID-19 - because testing shows that it works. So, where does it fall into this equation?

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7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

That will be the next miracle cure or is it her idea to weed out certain people?  Because bleach works too!

 

And if you combine hydrochloric acid and bleach your COVID worries will be gone forever...

https://www.acsh.org/news/2019/11/09/bleach-death-restaurant-manager-can-be-explained-simplest-chemical-reaction-14389

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48 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

So, you are correct in that Fauci has assigned the patents we have found to the HHS. He and his coinventors may have assigned all rights and financial reward to the HHS. But we don’t know that. I can’t find the assignment documents.

But “assignment” alone does not mean he does not profit from them.

Nalates, basically this is what that entire long post comes down to: that you can't offer actual proof of corruption on the part of Fauci . . . but hey, he could be profiting from it! Maybe!

You do understand that this entirely conjectural bit of fiction derives not from any actual facts, but from your own predisposition to assume that anything to do with government is necessarily corrupt? I'm all for transparency, critical thinking, and not taking anyone merely at their word -- and that certainly includes Fauci -- but there is absolutely NO shred of actual evidence here. Just the teeny weeny little possibility that he might be -- which you take to mean that he is.

And none of this has anything to do with the actual science, which is being published almost daily, in credible sources and peer-reviewed studies, and none of which conclusively suggest that these sorts of treatments are actually beneficial. That might change! Maybe tomorrow will bring out a ground breaking study about HCQ! But until that happens, Fauci, and all of the other stuff is a red herring: the science doesn't support your position. Period.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Krystina Ferraris said:

The placebo effect for example does not make any sense. It's a whole lot of nothing and yet, sometimes it works. Years ago a group of scientists studied the effects of placebo (saline solution) on Parkinson's patients. The brain scans showed that there was reduced activity in single neurons on the placebo patients and that meant a great improvement on their condition. I will find the paper on pubmed, I just can't access it here at the moment. To this day it is not understood how a saline solution can improve Parkinson's disease, probably the neurons are "trained" to respond to the placebo who knows.

I wanna hear more about this, Krystina!

There's also the nocebo effect, in which expectations of a treatment's negative effects can precipitate them. This poses an ethical dilemma for physicians, who can actually cause harm by telling the truth.

There are numerous plausible explanations for the placebo/nocebo, depending on the problem being addressed. For some psychological issues, expectation and classical conditioning apply. There's also reversion to mean for transient or cyclic issues. You seek help when sick and are likely to get better, help or not.

For analgesia, we feel better if someone's taking care of us, even if they're actually doing nothing. Endorphins, dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, all of those can mediate pain and all are affected by human caring. This might explain your Parkinson's story, but I want to know more. Here's another curious Parkinson's story...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/04/990422055736.htm

I've a friend who's mother got an extra year or two of mobility from having a laser pointer strapped to her walker.

I read, a few years ago, that the placebo effect is increasing in strength. There have been recent trials of Prozac in which it does not clear the placebo controlled efficacy threshold for FDA approval. Something has changed over time, and it ain't Prozac. It was theorized that increasing public awareness of the power of the placebo effect is increasing the power of the placebo effect.

That same article mentioned that de-blinding the placebo in trials didn't eliminate the effect. Knowing you are taking a sugar pill sometimes still helps. It was theorized that simply having a physician caring for you helps, even if you know the treatment is a sham.

The placebo effect also seems to work for knee surgery...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/07/020712075415.htm

The early raving over HCQ was based on retrospective observational studies. The moment they brought in placebos and controlled the trial, HCQ's benefit evaporated.

Because you're a veterinarian, the moment you mentioned placebo, I wondered if it works in animals. Reversion to mean should work for all creatures, but I thought dogs might also read their owners well enough to benefit from the psychological aspects. Here's what I found while waiting to get my teeth cleaned (gotta look pretty now that I'm finally crawling out of my cave)...

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20161017-why-animals-experience-the-placebo-effect-much-like-we-do
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/11/danger-pet-placebo/601489/

I need a bigger brain.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

You do realise, you've lost all credibility in this thread regardless of what you post?  That most don't bother reading your claptrap?  You lost any credibility with me long ago with your ill informed statements about herd immunity.  Your posts, along with another poster's, will join the dung heap.  

Flaming and Generalizations so your not debating just trying to shut the other person down. what happened to the old Rowan who tried to put out flames not adding the tinder to the fire?😝

Edited by Sassy Kenin
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19 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

God no, please. You'd become even more insufferable than you already are!

Scylla, though I understand your trepidation, show a little compassion for me. If she does get a bigger brain, there might be room for me to crawl back inside. I'm currently sitting on the window ledge, soaked and shivering. There's not much I can do to rein her in from this side of the glass.

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8 minutes ago, Sassy Kenin said:

Flaming and Generalizations so your not debating just trying to shut the other person down. what happened to the old Rowan who tried to put out flames not adding the tinder to the fire?

You're entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine.  I'm neither flaming nor generalizing but stating that opinion which I'm sure I'm not alone in.

“Do not say little in many words but a great deal in few”

While I may not be as eloquent as other posters in my disdain for some posts, I think I get my point across.  I've also said the last I'm going to say to either of them directly.  It's a waste of time.  If some people would stop heaping dung on the fire, perhaps it would go out on it's own?  

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1 hour ago, Nalates Urriah said:

It does seem odd to me that most government agencies take the same stance that a CHEAP decades old medicine well tolerated by billions of people is consistently considered ineffective for CoVid. But their recommended barely tested very expensive experimental vaccines are claimed the solution and all else should be banned or strongly contraindicated at the least.

 

On the other hand, literally thousands of front-line doctors acting as individuals and without financial incentive claim HCI is working well. As do a number of studies.

 

Also, the governments that oppose HCI treatment all seem to be big and Left leaning. The smaller counties and Right leaning governments seem to be following the science and allowing, if not promoting, treatment with HCI and other treatments which have shown success.

 

If these government agencies were honestly looking at the body of evidence, I think we would be hearing a very different story.

 

I don't know about how these decisions are taken in the US, but in the UK, our NHS doctors follow professional guidance issued by NICE, which issues recommendations based on the available clinical evidence.

If you're interested, here's NICE's guidance on all the therapies they recommend for Covid-19, and the circumstances in which they should and shouldn't be used.

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng191/chapter/Recommendations

If you drill down in that far enough, it'll take you to the complete list of published studies they reviewed in arriving at any particular recommendation.

That's where our guidance comes from, and it's being updated and revised all the time, as new data becomes available.

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1 hour ago, Snugs McMasters said:

Scylla, though I understand your trepidation, show a little compassion for me. If she does get a bigger brain, there might be room for me to crawl back inside. I'm currently sitting on the window ledge, soaked and shivering. There's not much I can do to rein her in from this side of the glass.

Well... maybe, just maybe... if you worked with her rather than against her. You know. Work smarter, not harder. 😋

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2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Come one Arielle, show us how deep the brain worms have gone. Tell us how you really feel.

After I saw you post this, I realized you were showing me your worms were both bigger and deeper than mine. I stand in awe:

 

 

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2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Thoughts and prayers are cheap too .. vaccines on the other hand are proven so effective, it doesn't matter what you believe for them to work.

Vaccines do nothing for the ones who have it now. We desperately need a treatment. Your resistance (collectively) slows that process down.

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3 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

It does seem odd to me that most government agencies take the same stance that a CHEAP decades old medicine well tolerated by billions of people is consistently considered ineffective for CoVid. But their recommended barely tested very expensive experimental vaccines are claimed the solution and all else should be banned or strongly contraindicated at the least.

No.  The vaccines are the ONLY way to herd immunity.  The. only. way.  There is no other way, you are dreaming.  

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47 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

We desperately need a treatment.

Yes. With medically proven treatments. Your approach is like blindly throwing mud at a wall in the hope that some of it will stick. And risking the patient by so doing.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes. With medically proven treatments. Your approach is like blindly throwing mud at a wall in the hope that some of it will stick. And risking the patient by so doing.

Yeah and agreed.  What part of all drugs have a potential to be poisonous if the dose is wrong, I don't know what she doesn't understand about that?  Doctors in the medical field cannot just start guessing at doses let alone why she wants all of us to get Covid so they can attempt to treat us with some oddity drugs is beyond me.  And, why some are being so obstinate about a vaccine and drawing a political party line about it too boot smacks of some kind of tantrum that they cannot have their way and/or want to run the medical field.  I don't know what has happened to this country.  I went for a walk today.  Thought I'd stop into my favorite restaurant.  They weren't open today, but the empty abandoned store next door had a sign on it that said "Pray For America".  I agree with that too.  I want to get on with my life and reach herd immunity.  I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall though.

Edited by FairreLilette
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  • Lindens

This thread has been locked for failing to stay on topic, and the negative commentary.  Please be better to one another! Disagreements should be dropped or addressed away from the forums. Thanks for your participation.

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