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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

You are entitled to your opinions and beliefs. I pointed out the reasons I chose to answer 'not necessarily'. I said nothing about your relatives. If you are attempting to use the character of your relatives as proof of what's happening in the medical field and that system isn't being abused and is totally righteous... you have a lot of evidence to the contrary to over come.

In the USA those doctors that had good documented success with HCI & Zinc were prohibited from using it off label by Dr Fauci's mandate. (Ref) AFAIK, this is the first time in history a safe drug has been removed from a medical professional's discretion as a treatment for off label use. So, people in the position of your relatives often are restricted by higher authorities. 

If the character of your relatives is such that they will NOT bow to authority and will do what they know is best for the patient then you have to explain why the system is removing such people from their jobs, threatening them with prosecution, and ridiculing them for you to claim the system is totally righteous. Remember. A number of doctors have the documentation to back up their decisions.

True, treatments fro CoVid are in testing. But, there is no vaccine or treatment that is in use per the medical definition safe for general use, AFAIK. Everything CoVid related is a study... experimental. The current EUA vaccines are the biggest experimental medical study ever made.

While Austraila has had interesting success with various old known safe drugs the national government is restricting what can be used as a CoVid treatment. Doesn't matter that doctors have had success. It only matters a study of a new use for an old well known and tested safe drug hasn't been completed.

The UK guidelines for managing patients with Covid-19 are here, along with full medical references to back them up. 

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng191/chapter/Recommendations

All doctors in NHS hospitals will be following those, since they represent the synthesis of all the available reliable medical research.   The guidelines are drawn up, and under constant review by, top medical scientists and practitioners.   

As far as the NHS is concerned, if the treatment isn't on that list, there's insufficient evidence it's an effective treatment.

Edited by Innula Zenovka
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14 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

So why in the world is the FDA putting up roadblock after roadblock?

Guess you missed my earlier post?

Leronlimab has been granted Emergency Investigational New Drug (EIND) status by the FDA for use in COVID-19 patients.

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20 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

The vaccine is free to individuals in the US. It's a fact. No humor.

Ahh well the discussion was on national pricing, not pricing for the individual.

9 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So sorry!  Didn't mean to confuse anyone with facts. How silly of me. 😁

Bill's return on investment was not being discussed so I was confused why you brought it up.

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Many in red states are refusing the vaccination:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/the-people-who-wont-get-the-vaccine/618765/

Several days ago, the mega-popular podcast host Joe Rogan advised his young listeners to skip the COVID-19 vaccine. “I think you should get vaccinated if you’re vulnerable,” Rogan said. “But if you’re 21 years old, and you say to me, ‘Should I get vaccinated?’ I’ll go, ‘No.’”

Rogan’s comments drew widespread condemnation. But his view is surprisingly common. One in four Americans says they don’t plan to take the COVID-19 vaccine, and about half of Republicans under 50 say they won’t get a vaccine. This partisan vaccine gap is already playing out in the real world. The average number of daily shots has declined 20 percent in the past two weeks, largely because states with larger Trump vote shares are falling off the pace.

What are they thinking, these vaccine-hesitant, vaccine-resistant, and COVID-apathetic? I wanted to know. So I posted an invitation on Twitter for anybody who wasn’t planning to get vaccinated to email me and explain why. In the past few days, I spoke or corresponded with more than a dozen such people. I told them that I was staunchly pro-vaccine, but this wouldn’t be a takedown piece. I wanted to produce an ethnography of a position I didn’t really understand.

The people I spoke with were all under 50. A few of them self-identified as Republican, and none of them claimed the modern Democratic Party as their political home. Most said they weren’t against all vaccines; they were just a “no” on this vaccine. They were COVID-19 no-vaxxers, not overall anti-vaxxers.

Many people I spoke with said they trusted their immune system to protect them. “Nobody ever looks at it from the perspective of a guy who’s like me,” Bradley Baca, a 39-year-old truck driver in Colorado, told me. “As an essential worker, my life was never going to change in the pandemic, and I knew I was going to get COVID no matter what. Now I think I’ve got the antibodies, so why would I take a risk on the vaccine?”
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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Nothing there about him not being in control of the pricing.

Then perhaps you could direct me to a credible source that says he is in control of the pricing as I could not find one.

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1 hour ago, Krystina Ferraris said:

Hopefully I haven't done anything so bad yet to be torched 🔥

Maddy "torching" you isn't necessarily a bad thing. When Maddy torches you, you get a warm, cozy feeling, like you've been wrapped in a wool blanket that doesn't scratch. ;)

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3 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Maddy "torching" you isn't necessarily a bad thing. When Maddy torches you, you get a warm, cozy feeling, like you've been wrapped in a wool blanket that doesn't scratch. ;)

I'll stick around then! 😄🔥

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@Arielle Popstar

These evangelical red states are going to be the death of all of us if they refuse the vaccine. Where did your father encounter this type of fundamentalism/evangelical mindset so prominent in the U.S. ....was it in Canada or the Netherlands. I know it began in the northern part of the U.S. in the late 1800's/early 1900's....but am wondering if it exists/existed in Holland. I recognized a book in the following article that you said your father referred you to (in the Darwin thread):

https://theconversation.com/fundamentalism-turns-100-a-landmark-for-the-christian-right-123651

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11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

and about half of Republicans under 50 say they won’t get a vaccine

I guess they really like lockdowns (and death), and complaining about lockdowns (and death), and being the victim of lockdowns (and death), because this is how we get more lockdowns (and death).

Is it too soon to remind people they only get to divvy up Granma's estate once ?

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20 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:
1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Nothing there about him not being in control of the pricing.

Then perhaps you could direct me to a credible source that says he is in control of the pricing as I could not find one.

I think maybe she wants to pay more.

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40 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:
55 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

So why in the world is the FDA putting up roadblock after roadblock?

Guess you missed my earlier post?

Leronlimab has been granted Emergency Investigational New Drug (EIND) status by the FDA for use in COVID-19 patients.

The sweet, sweet irony!

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

In the USA those doctors that had good documented success with HCI & Zinc were prohibited from using it off label by Dr Fauci's mandate. (Ref) AFAIK, this is the first time in history a safe drug has been removed from a medical professional's discretion as a treatment for off label use. So, people in the position of your relatives often are restricted by higher authorities.

Holy hell, Nalates. Why did you post a reference to support your contention?

You misspelled two of the three keywords in your reference (a Google search for "faucu prohibits hydroy") which produces a list of links that pretty roundly trash your position.

Here are the first ten results from the search you offered to support your position...

  1. https://www.thelibertybeacon.com/deadly-cover-up-fauci-approved-hydroxy-15-years-ago-to-cure-coronaviruses-nobody-needed-to-die/

    This is a rehash of a story that will be debunked by link 2.
     
  2. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fauci-quote-hydroxychloroquine/

    This debunks link 1.
     
  3. https://checkyourfact.com/2020/06/23/fact-check-anthony-fauci-known-hydroxychloroquine-wonder-drug-coronavirus-2005/

    This debunks link 1.
     
  4. https://stillnessinthestorm.com/2020/07/cover-up-fauci-approved-hydroxychloroquine-15-years-ago-to-cure-coronaviruses-nobody-needed-to-die/

    Same story as link 1, already debunked.
     
  5. https://www.americafirstprojects.com/opinion/renewed-calls-to-fire-fauci-after-hydroxyc-hoax/

    This is a call to action, using ad hominem attacks and citing no evidence, but probably fueled by stories already debunked.
     
  6. https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2020/04/Fact-Check-No-Deep-State-Operators-Trying-To-Ban-Hydroxychloroquine.html

    This debunks your insinuation that there's an attempt to ban HCQ.
     
  7. https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/499704-fauci-data-shows-no-evidence-hydroxychloroquine-is-effective-at-treating

    Debunks your claim that HCQ is effective.
     
  8. https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/wow-dr-fauci-cheered-hydroxychloroquine-success-treating-mers-coronavirus-2013-today-skeptical-weird/

     A report on a tweet by Andrew Bostom, MD, MS  who said:

    Dr. Fauci, who found little to like in the research regarding HCQ/azithromycin to treat Covid-19 was, in 2013, encouraged by the availability (it's not clear he made any judgment about the efficacy) of a two drug cocktail, neither of which was HCQ or azithromycin, that showed promise against a virus that was not Covid-19, when tested in a petri dish which is not a human body. Got it.

    I'll reword the good doctor's claim, losing no relevance, to highlight the absurdity of it...

    Fauci, now so sour on using motor oil and weed killer as ice-cream toppings, despite my thinking the combo tastes great and is good for you, gushed in April of 2013 that chocolate syrup and peanuts are particularly encouraging toppings, as they're readily available.

  9. https://www.statesman.com/news/20200416/fact-check-does-anthony-fauci-have-millions-invested-in-coronavirus-vaccine

    This article debunks a theory I have not seen, that Dr. Fauci stands to benefit financially from recommendations he makes.
     
  10. https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/faucis-many-mistakes-lies-nih-director-said-one-thing-weeks-months-ago-today-tries-blame-president-trump-video/

    This is, more or less, a description of what it's like to shoot at a moving target. I quite agree that Dr. Fauci and others at NIH did not accurately predict our current situation. I also understand that wasn't possible. Fauci adjusts his stance as new information comes to light, just as he should. The author of the article shows no understanding of how science works, nor any appreciation for the complexity of the situation.

As for your claim that HCQ/Zinc is prohibited from off-label usage, I can't find any evidence that's true. The FDA did revoke emergency use authorization last July, but that still allows physicians to prescribe the combo, at their discretion.

https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3875427/posts

For someone who comments so often on methods of argumentation, you show remarkably little skill at it, Nalates. I've been going toe-to-toe in discussions for three decades and your performance today is among the worst I've ever seen.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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10 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Holy hell, Nalates. Why did you post a reference to support your contention?

You misspelled two of the three keywords in your reference (a Google search for "faucu prohibits hydroy") which produces a list of links that pretty roundly trash your position.

Here are the first ten results the reference you offered to support your position...

  1. https://www.thelibertybeacon.com/deadly-cover-up-fauci-approved-hydroxy-15-years-ago-to-cure-coronaviruses-nobody-needed-to-die/

    This is a rehash of a story that will be debunked by link 2.
     
  2. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fauci-quote-hydroxychloroquine/

    This debunks link 1.
     
  3. https://checkyourfact.com/2020/06/23/fact-check-anthony-fauci-known-hydroxychloroquine-wonder-drug-coronavirus-2005/

    This debunks link 1.
     
  4. https://stillnessinthestorm.com/2020/07/cover-up-fauci-approved-hydroxychloroquine-15-years-ago-to-cure-coronaviruses-nobody-needed-to-die/

    Same story as link 1, already debunked.
     
  5. https://www.americafirstprojects.com/opinion/renewed-calls-to-fire-fauci-after-hydroxyc-hoax/

    This is a call to action, using ad hominem attacks and citing no evidence, but probably fueled by stories already debunked.
     
  6. https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2020/04/Fact-Check-No-Deep-State-Operators-Trying-To-Ban-Hydroxychloroquine.html

    This debunks your insinuation that there's an attempt to ban HCQ.
     
  7. https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/499704-fauci-data-shows-no-evidence-hydroxychloroquine-is-effective-at-treating

    Debunks your claim that HCQ is effective.
     
  8. https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/wow-dr-fauci-cheered-hydroxychloroquine-success-treating-mers-coronavirus-2013-today-skeptical-weird/

     A report on a tweet by Andrew Bostom, MD, MS  who said:

    Dr. Fauci, who found little to like in the research regarding HCQ/azithromycin to treat Covid-19 was, in 2013, encouraged by the availability (it's not clear he made any judgment about the efficacy) of a two drug cocktail, neither of which was HCQ or azithromycin, that showed promise against a virus that was not Covid-19, when tested in a petri dish which is not a human body. Got it.

    I'll reword the good doctor's claim, losing no relevance, to highlight the absurdity of it...

    Fauci, now so sour on using motor oil and weed killer as ice-cream toppings, despite my thinking the combo tastes great and is good for you, gushed in April of 2013 that chocolate syrup and peanuts are particularly encouraging toppings, as they're readily available.

  9. https://www.statesman.com/news/20200416/fact-check-does-anthony-fauci-have-millions-invested-in-coronavirus-vaccine

    This article debunks a theory I have not seen, that Dr. Fauci stands to benefit financially from recommendations he makes.
     
  10. https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/faucis-many-mistakes-lies-nih-director-said-one-thing-weeks-months-ago-today-tries-blame-president-trump-video/

    This is, more or less, a description of what it's like to shoot at a moving target. I quite agree that Dr. Fauci and others at NIH did not accurately predict our current situation. I also understand that wasn't possible. Fauci adjusts his stance as new information comes to light, just as he should. The author of the article shows no understanding of how science works, nor any appreciation for the complexity of the situation.

As for your claim that HCQ/Zinc is prohibited from off-label usage, I can't find any evidence that's true. The FDA did revoke emergency use authorization last July, but that still allows physicians to prescribe the combo, at their discretion.

https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3875427/posts

For someone who comments so often on methods of argumentation, you show remarkably little skill at it, Nalates. I've been going toe-to-toe in discussions for three decades and your performance today is among the worst I've ever seen.

 

Re1914aa506547e02d048be98333b09c9.gif

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah, this. The part most amazing about your responses is their dispassionate rationality even after all this time. Personally, I can't do it anymore. I can't count the times I've hovered over the Submit button before deleting a response that "explains" in florid detail how I marvel at their cognitive condition. (Why are they so proud to be so gullible? How can they cite the authority of these quack "doctors" then dismiss the vast majority of medical science? What makes them so very sure of so many things that are at best tragically wrong? Where do they gather all this disinformation, and why? How many more of them are out there, naively acting in earnest, not merely adding entropy for the grins and giggles of Mother Motherland?) You can see where this would take the discussion, which you so patiently avoid, still.

After hovering over the Submit button, I just deleted a massive missive trying to explain why I do what I do.

What a waste of time. The answer is obvious, isn't it?

I'm nuts.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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3 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

For someone who comments so often on methods of argumentation, you show remarkably little skill at it, Nalates. I've been going toe-to-toe in discussions for three decades and your performance today is among the worst I've ever seen.

The most disturbing thing about recent history is discovering how many of one’s acquaintances/ friends / family members one always thought were smart and enlightened but turn out to be neither.

 

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6 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

The most disturbing thing about recent history is discovering how many of one’s acquaintances/ friends / family members one always thought were smart and enlightened but turn out to be neither.

Yeah, but I'm still cute!

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21 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

The same would probably be happening more here also in the US, if the US were having the COVID outbreak levels and treatment availability as India. 

Probably. The last line of this article is the heart of the matter:

"She eventually found it and bought it, aware it was unlikely to work.
“My parents are dying,” Bhardwaj said. “I am desperate.”"

- Indians turn to black market, unproven drugs as virus surges
https://apnews.com/article/india-science-coronavirus-business-health-c2a72c4d2ab29aa163e785ca98181023

I can't bring myself to fault people who are at this extreme of suffering. I'd try anything too.

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10 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I've been going toe-to-toe in discussions for three decades and your performance today is among the worst I've ever seen.

Maybe their kid, or a computer thief, is using their account to post..

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