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I did get my second jab today.  The place was opened up to non-appointment drive-ups, in addition to the scheduled 1st & 2nd doses, so the place was a zoo.  It took me a total of 40 minutes from when I encountered the car line (2 blocks before the turn in to the community center) to the spot of getting my shot.  Last time, there was no line until I actually turned in to the community center and even then it was only about 5 minutes of winding through the aisles before I got the shot.

If it is similar to last time, I'll wake up sometime tonight (or early morning) with my arm hurting like hell.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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3 hours ago, RunawayBunny said:

There is no right or wrong I think.

Well, no. But there is science, on one hand, and . . . well, utter nonsense woven from god knows what, on the other.

You are right to say that there are many unknowns here. Science isn't a magic wand that you wave over something to learn "The Truth" -- it's a laborious and painstaking process not merely of testing and experimenting, but of re-testing, and recreating experiments. And whatever results scientist might produced are then tested again, in the crucible of peer reviewed publication.

This pandemic is not yet a year and a half old: that science has learned as much about the virus as it has, yet alone produced effective vaccines for it, is nothing short of a miracle. This kind of investigation is usually measured in decades, not months. Those who've criticized health professionals, scientists, and epidemiologists for "changing their minds" about things seem not to understand that that is precisely how knowledge, and particularly scientific knowledge, is produced. You produce a hypothesis, and you test it, and then you test it again, and then someone else tests it . . . and eventually you achieve a stable, provable answer. Changing your mind as you learn new things is actually part of the process.

But that there is still much about which we cannot be sure -- and there certainly is -- is not license to simply ignore what we have learned, or to produce wild speculation that owes nothing to proper scientific investigation. The things we do not yet know, or cannot yet be certain exist within the context of things that we do know. Those things, our current certainties, are the foundations for further investigation and research.

And if speculation outruns experimentation and testing, and is contrary to what we do know, then . . . yes, you are wrong.

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This pandemic is not yet a year and a half old: that science has learned as much about the virus as it has, yet alone produced effective vaccines for it, is nothing short of a miracle. This kind of investigation is usually measured in decades, not months. Those who've criticized health professionals, scientists, and epidemiologists for "changing their minds" about things seem not to understand that that is precisely how knowledge, and particularly scientific knowledge, is produced. You produce a hypothesis, and you test it, and then you test it again, and then someone else tests it . . . and eventually you achieve a stable, provable answer. Changing your mind as you learn new things is actually part of the process.

I agree but there is safer methods to handle it.. It is harder to archive so no one listens. Time is short and shortcuts easy.

Instead of relying one type of vaccine use 3 different vaccine split population to 3 group if one group ends of with long term dangerous side effect (sensory loss, muscular dystrophy etc.) remaining population can carry on without social collapse.

Companies creating those vaccines taking no responsibility for side effects you cant sue them and if you force vaccination on subject population government becomes responsible for it. So don't force anything.. it is not going to help.

I am sure things handled different in USA (and other  advanced countries) they are smarter than most.. But it is current state in my country.

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40 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Please stop going off on your various tangents of dragging Trump and stimulus and other US political crap into this thread.  The conversation that started you up again this time was the article I posted about that school.  There are lots of lunatic conspiracy theory folks out there and not all of them are Trump followers and/or Republicans -- and not all Republicans (or even all Trump followers) are conspiracy lunatics.  Believe me, I've met tons of such lunatics in my many decades of living and they sit all along the entire political spectrum.  Tin foil hats are not politically specific.

It was brought up in the New York Times article she was a Trump supporter and she wanted it known...oh, nevermind....this says it better because I never said all Trump supporters are conspiracy lunatics.   If I thought that, what did I just say about Trump?  I mean do you read or just go off spouting crud like you run the place? Block if you don't like as I am going to do you.

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Edited by FairreLilette
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5 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

Instead of relying one type of vaccine use 3 different vaccine split population to 3 group if one group ends of with long term dangerous side effect (sensory loss, muscular dystrophy etc.) remaining population can carry on without social collapse.

Multiple vaccines with different approaches are in use.

The worst long term outcome is that any of the given vaccines is ineffective and the recipient gets COVID anyway (if it doesn't kill, it can do a lot of damage depending on how long it takes someone to fend it off - if the flu is a bad cat scratch, covid is being mauled by a bear).

 

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1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And if speculation outruns experimentation and testing, and is contrary to what we do know, then . . . yes, you are wrong.

Also it is not pure speculation.. Check history.. even with enough research and time we made mistakes..

Covid different our time short and options limited so we have more tolerance for error & trial due desperation.

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benfluorex

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerivastatin

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troglitazone

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17 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The worst long term outcome is that any of the given vaccines is ineffective and the recipient gets COVID anyway (if it doesn't kill, it can do a lot of damage depending on how long it takes someone to fend it off - if the flu is a bad cat scratch, covid is being mauled by a bear).

It is dangerous I know but nowadays everyone talking about different topic in here :P It is kinda off topic but here:

They managed vaccinate majority of edlerly population with Chinese vaccine.. Everything you buy from China explodes unless it is fireworks lol. I hope nothing bad happens.

Young and middle age people will not get vaccine in 1-2 year it is estimated. Lock downs in progress and government deaf.

Translation: yoksulluk = poverty.

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31 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

  

Also it is not pure speculation.. Check history.. even with enough research and time we made mistakes..

Covid different our time short and options limited so we have more tolerance for error & trial due desperation.

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benfluorex

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerivastatin

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troglitazone

Medicine isn't perfect and some drugs are pulled after their release but I didn't really want to get into a discussion with you about that as there is too much involved.   

But, Runaway Bunny, do you know what's happening in India right now?  They are having to bury people in the street in funeral pyres.  (See chart below).

With the vaccines, they are trying to defang the virus to make it not a deadly disease but more like a cold.  Covid is going to be with us a very long time and maybe forever.  

I know tons of people who have been vaccinated and there are no long term effects.  I think you are believing some kind of propaganda from your country.

But, I just wanted you to know, the vaccines are relatively safe or we would have heard something by now.  

However, no one is forcing anyone in America.  My next door neighbor doesn't want to be vaccinated right now, maybe later she feels, so that's just the way it is for her.

I think you should study first what the vaccines are attempting to do as I said Covid may be here forever, but it will be more like a cold rather than a deadly or severe disease.  

Screenshot (287).png

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13 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

But, Runaway Bunny, do you know what's happening in India right now?  They are having to bury people in the street in funeral pyres.  (See chart below).

Do you know PM Modi running a election campaign in India? Covid explosion not a surprising result.

13 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I think you should study first what the vaccines are attempting to do as I said Covid may be here forever, but it will be more like a cold rather than a deadly or severe disease.  

I am not against vaccine I never said something like this. I said:

1 hour ago, RunawayBunny said:

Instead of relying one type of vaccine use 3 different vaccine split population to 3 group if one group ends of with long term dangerous side effect (sensory loss, muscular dystrophy etc.) remaining population can carry on without social collapse.

 

Edited by RunawayBunny
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14 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

 Also it is not pure speculation.. Check history.. even with enough research and time we made mistakes..

Covid different our time short and options limited so we have more tolerance for error & trial due desperation.

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benfluorex

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerivastatin

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troglitazone

Those are not vaccines and function in a completely different way.

A vaccine presents something that triggers an immune system response, part of that response is remembering how to deal with that thing again. Vaccines leverage what the immune system tries to do naturally.

Humans take a complex thing and smash it, then work out how to get the bits where the immune system can see them. The worst that happens is we mess up the delivery, or the delivery fails or the immune system ignores us / gets the wrong idea / misses the important bit and it doesn't provide any immunity.

(this is why the mRNA vaccines are so exciting - no more smashing things. Give the body the exact code needed to make the exact bit of the thing it needs to recognize, a few of your own cells make that exact bit and proudly show it to the immune system .. which promptly decides it's not having any of this junk and swings into action to get rid of it)

 

A drug or medication is very different. It doesn't trigger the immune system and acts directly. molecule in. cells react. stuff happens. molecule  get broken down into smaller molecules and tossed out with the rest of the trash, effect goes away ... There is a lot more that can go wrong here. 

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1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

A drug or medication is very different. It doesn't trigger the immune system and acts directly. molecule in. cells react. stuff happens. molecule  get broken down into smaller molecules and tossed out with the rest of the trash, effect goes away ... There is a lot more that can go wrong here. 

Mistakes might happen science is a trial and error. We learn with mistakes.

Those examples given to disprove "speculation".

Im not against vaccine I am against blind vaccination method. Why take risk while safer route exist.

Example vaccine trial & error: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine

Example vaccine trial & error: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengue_vaccine (Linked to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengvaxia_controversy)

Example vaccine failure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_vaccine_development (I think this one weirdest does opposite of what it is supposed to do.)

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A full list:

mRNA vaccines: We assume the same efficacy as Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna (95%).

CoronaVac: We use the Brazil arm of the CoronaVac trial, as it has the largest number of cases.

All other vaccines: We assume 75% efficacy.

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Some of them works some of them better to not have..

J&J have some problems: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/janssen.html

AstraZeneca: Some resources (and governments) says it is snake oil.. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-55975052

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Where did that funky table came from? Pfizer at 9% (?!) preventing D614G (the globally dominant strain in the latter half of 2020) and B.1.1.7 (the so-called "UK variant" strain, now dominant in many parts of the world)?!

Nobody said AstraZeneca "is snake oil". All vaccines are challenged by new variants. Obviously. Different variants will break through different vaccines differently, and so far the AZ vaccine has been pretty robust to some of the most common variants (at least in UK and North America). There are studies about crossing first and second doses between existing vaccines, but that's kind of a stop-gap to buy time until the next "booster" shots specifically tailored for the now-emerging variants are available. That's all to be expected, and much worsened by delay in administering existing vaccines to reduce hotbeds of mutation.

The total number of infections, world-wide, drive how fast new mutations occur, which determines how soon and how often we'll need "mop-up" booster vaccines.

All that said, it appears to be true that SinoVac's "CoronaVac" really isn't very effective against any strain.

But all the COVID vaccines have shown remarkably low rates of serious side effects when compared to the truly terrifying rates of cowering anti-vax hysteria re-branded as "hesitancy" for popular appeal.

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18 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Where did that funky table came from?

http://www.healthdata.org

http://www.healthdata.org/covid/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-summary

*We intentionally exclude the AstraZeneca trial results in this average as it is so much lower than other vaccines.

18 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Nobody said AstraZeneca "is snake oil".

If it is working on only one variant yes.. It is kind of useless against new ones especially if you country open for tourism. But calling it snake oil makes it harder to resell so S.Africa did right thing :P

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55659820

Will vaccines still work against variants?

Current vaccines were designed around earlier versions of coronavirus, but scientists believe they should still work, although perhaps not quite as well.

A recent study suggests the Brazilian variant may be resisting antibodies in people who've already had Covid and should have some immunity.

However, early lab results and real life data suggest the Pfizer vaccine can protect against the new variants, although slightly less effectively.

Data from the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine team suggests it protects just as well against the new UK variant.

It offers less protection against the South Africa variant - but should still protect against severe illness.

Early results suggest the Moderna vaccine is effective against the South Africa variant, although the immune response may not be as strong or long-lasting.

Two new coronavirus vaccines awaiting approval - Novavax and Janssen - also appear to offer some variant protection.

Experts say with a new virus mutation, even in a worst case scenario, vaccines could be redesigned and tweaked in weeks or months to be better matches.

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7 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

If it is similar to last time, I'll wake up sometime tonight (or early morning) with my arm hurting like hell.

Weirdly, I think I might have escaped side effects on this one - felt worse after my first jab, but feel OK today. Though had some very weird dreams :o 

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9 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

You have a posting history which leads people to believe you support the claims you bring to the forum. Failure to recognize this erodes people's respect for you.

How is this example preface to introducing a controversial opinion: 

"Hey, y'all aren't gonna believe this, I mean some of you will but that's the point. What do you think about this information? [link to nefarious info]"

Without something, anything before / or after the info indicating the poster's intent, yes of course, I will assume the poster supports it!

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Hmm. As best I can tell from the source material, that 9% must be a typo in the table; the text seems to use 95% for that value. The South African variant may indeed have a high breakthrough rate for the AstraZeneca jab, based on a single widely-cited study. It seems well-conducted, but it would be great to see a study showing any other vaccine working significantly better against that variant, or at least replicating the AZ findings.

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26 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Hmm. As best I can tell from the source material, that 9% must be a typo in the table; the text seems to use 95% for that value. The South African variant may indeed have a high breakthrough rate for the AstraZeneca jab, based on a single widely-cited study. It seems well-conducted, but it would be great to see a study showing any other vaccine working significantly better against that variant, or at least replicating the AZ findings.

I am not entirely sure tbh.. Sputnik and CoronaVac making me question it. But they seems professional also have sources linked to PDF.

Take example Sinovac have %50.4 success Brazil.. but in my country have %83 success ratio (which makes me think if it is made up number due politic reasons). WHO is lying? or is it a different variant? :P I have no idea.

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8 hours ago, RunawayBunny said:

Do you know PM Modi running a election campaign in India? Covid explosion not a surprising result.

I did not hear the explosion of Covid in India was due to an election.  The explosion of Covid in Southern California, the greater Los Angeles area, happened in November and was due to people refusing to voluntarily stay home for the Thanksgiving holiday even though they were asked to do so voluntarily, plus continued air travel.  However, you have said you think lockdown is wrong and will only lead to poverty.  If California hadn't locked down after the Thanksgiving spike, I'd probably be dead and most of the people in my building also as my landlord owns five apartment buildings and two of her buildings had Covid.  The greater Los Angeles area was India five/six months ago and we were at minus zero emergency room capacity and people were being treated in ambulances outside of hospitals with no oxygen available.  However, I'm not dead and have been vaccinated now.

Will California emerge from this and have jobs.  I don't know, some, of course, but for all...I don't know...we may need some kind of UBI.  But, UBI may just cover the basics.  People won't be as "rich" as they once were.  

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5 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

However, you have said you think lockdown is wrong and will only lead to poverty.  If California hadn't locked down after the Thanksgiving spike, I'd probably be dead and most of the people in my building also as my landlord owns five apartment buildings and two of her buildings had Covid.  The greater Los Angeles area was India five/six months ago and we were at minus zero emergency room capacity and people were being treated in ambulances outside of hospitals with no oxygen available.  However, I'm not dead and have been vaccinated now.

Will California emerge from this and have jobs.  I don't know, some, of course, but for all...I don't know...we may need some kind of UBI.  

Yep.. I still think same. For your country it is totally right thing to do.. You are talking about a developed country.. with multiple choices and possible solutions.

I am talking from my perspective.. Covid going to stay for a long time.. locking down people at home without offering any form of help (money, food or tax exclusion or anything).. does not seems to be viable solution.

I am not saying make election and hug them each other in queue. Just let them do their job so they can have a income and have a life..

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5 hours ago, RunawayBunny said:

Some of them works some of them better to not have..

All of them are better than no vaccine at all. 

Covid can kill you or the people you care about. A vaccine can waste your time.

 

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