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8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Do you think you might have a bias in how you read my posts and review studies about pandemic science? It is also a trick question.

If you weren't cherry picking the ones pushed by far right conspiracy nutters who seem to be rooting for the virus for kill as many people as possible. 

Edited by Coffee Pancake
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23 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So which is it?  First, you're saying mask don't work and now an article that says they do.  

One of the key ways even homemade cloth masks are thought to help slow the spread of coronavirus is by simply keeping your moisture to yourself. Even humid regular air carries an amount of moisture in the form of microscopic droplets, but while air molecules pass easily through a cloth barrier, water droplets are more likely to get snagged.

I've not said they didn't work but pointed out they do not work nearly as well as some would have us believe. What I see from a number of people in this thread is the idea that the lack of masking is the only reason why there is still a pandemic and that is 💩

 

24 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 

In other words, stop deflecting. The problem is Covidiots.

Covidiots are not just the ones who don't wear masks but also don't take adequate precautions in other ways. If you experience a lot of run ins with ones who do not mask, take extra precautions! How simple is that?

As an aside, would you if you were a therapist, attempt to help a client by guilt and shaming them into better behaviour?  Have you in past had a therapist who did try to help you by doing that to you? If so, did it work for you?

 

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On 4/11/2021 at 3:06 AM, Rowan Amore said:

The declaration calls for individuals at significantly lower risk of dying from COVID-19 – as well as those at higher risk who so wish – to be allowed to resume their normal lives, working normally at their usual workplaces rather than from home, socialising in bars and restaurants, and gathering at sporting and cultural events. The declaration claims that increased infection of those at lower risk would lead to a build-up of immunity in the population that would eventually also protect those at higher risk from the SARS-CoV-2 virus.[5] The declaration makes no mention of physical distancing, masks, tracing,[6] or long COVID, which has left patients suffering from debilitating symptoms months after the initial infection.[7][8]

The World Health Organization (WHO) and numerous academic and public-health bodies have stated that the proposed strategy is dangerous and lacks a sound scientific basis.[9][10] 

My niece 45, no medical history, so theoretically at low risk. She works in the funeral business so a lot of people around her, no possibility to work from home. Son 19 and daughter 17 work both as starting nurses in care centers. Husband works from home, no significant medical dossier either. So a low risk family to get severely ill.
They manage to work and stay clean from the corona virus for more than a year.  Careful people.

And now all of a sudden:
My niece in the hospital last week with breathing problems, got extra oxygen in medium care, husband is lying next to her also extra oxygen also breathing problems. The two kids at home, exhausted and milder breathing problems.
All four infected and seriously ill.
The doctors in hospital already announced that my niece and her husband will need months to fully recover from it.
My niece came home yesterday, is totally exhausted if she comes out of bed, goes to the bathroom and back.

So please don't even try to believe that bulls**t about lower risk.
The virus can take anybody down. At random.

Edited by Sid Nagy
Zpellink. These forums should be in Dutch, much easier.
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Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Do you think you might have a bias in how you read my posts and review studies about pandemic science? It is also a trick question.

I know I have biases, we all do.

In our discussion here, it's up to others to judge the veracity of our arguments and the evidence we bring to support them. We both seem pretty comfortable with our "positions", though only one of us seems to know exactly what it is.

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15 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I've heard masks may be part of the new normal but most likely during cold/flu seasons.  We all are going to have to get used to it from now on.

Masks were the normal in Japan when I visited there in 1986. Though I was not there during flu season, there wasn't a day I went out and about without seeing people wearing them.

We don't ALL have to get used to them, but the more of us who do, the milder our flu/covid seasons will be.

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1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I know I have biases, we all do.

In our discussion here, it's up to others to judge the veracity of our arguments and the evidence we bring to support them. We both seem pretty comfortable with our "positions", though only one of us seems to know exactly what it is.

Well said. I do know what mine are though constantly updated with new information, but just not as adept at communicating it, especially when I get sidetracked by people who (intentionally?) misunderstand my position and reading into my posts what helps them build a case for their own. 

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15 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If you weren't cherry picking the ones pushed by far right conspiracy nutters who seem to be rooting for the virus for kill as many people as possible. 

Even far right nutters would statistically be right a certain % of the time :)

From my perspective the far lefties seem to be doing the most rooting to both kill as many people as possible as well as doing what they can to start a civil war in the USA.

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18 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I've heard masks may be part of the new normal but most likely during cold/flu seasons.  We all are going to have to get used to it from now on.

I'd love to be maskless and I find it difficult to breathe and have to walk somewhere away from others and take some breaths with my mask off.  Cloth masks are near impossible for me to breathe through so I use the medical grade everyday one, not an N95, I mean just a regular everyday medical mask.  I haven't bought a face shield yet but I plan to.  One thing I also like about the face shield is they are washable.  I want to get one to see if I can breathe better in it.  When I was sick in January of 2020 with a horrible flu-like illness and fever my nose completely stopped up.  It's been that way since Jan. of 2020.  I need to see a specialist, an ear, nose and throat doctor, as I've been treated for allergies by my regular M.D. and the allergy meds have zero effect.   Why people don't want to wear a mask, I cannot comprehend that.  Is it a protest or what?

shield.jpg

Work give those  exact shields out to anyone that asks for one..

I went and ask the maintenance guys where they get theirs because they had really nice ones that are really comfy for a face shield..

I said, where can I get one like you guys have.. The supervisor in maintenance said. here ya go.. They gave me a brand new one.. They even asked if I wanted a tinted one.. I was tempted.. hehehe

It's nice though.. I can lift it up and the shield is curved in the front like an egg so it's not right up close to my face so I can breathe really easy..

I just didn't like the ones work was giving away.. I love mine

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The difference seems to be @Madelaine McMastersreads the articles she posts.  Some people just post links they feel back their position without actually reading it or seeing if that article is fact or fiction.  If 3 sites say it fact, check those sites also.  The same with the ones who say it's false.  Again, it's not a left or right thing.  It's a true or false thing.  Preponderance of evidence.  It works for more than just the law.

 

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6 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Even far right nutters would statistically be right a certain % of the time :)

From my perspective the far lefties seem to be doing the most rooting to both kill as many people as possible as well as doing what they can to start a civil war in the USA.

I don't think anyone's trying to get people killed. The right underestimates the perils of Covid-19, the left overestimates. It's a damned complicated problem with myriad variables in play. We'll never tease it all apart to everyone's satisfaction.

That said, you'd help your case by understanding the research you cite. Your misinterpretation of the mask study is a rookie error and makes you seem a questionable flag bearer for your own beliefs.

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17 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

We don't ALL have to get used to them

I was thinking more along the lines it may become law in certain states during cold/flu seasons for businesses; and may become like the 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' laws we have in California (this is mostly at beaches where people might be barefoot or the men shirtless as in swimming trunks only), as I heard masks will be part of the new normal.  So, I was thinking perhaps a law.

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(Just a polite reminder...please don't turn it into a right vs left thing or call people names like 'dumb'...I don't want to be thread police but you know they will lock the thread if it becomes political and turns into insults. Also, there will be loads of vaccinations rolled out in the next few months so this thread might be a neat place for people to talk about them as they get them...peace :))

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55 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The difference seems to be @Madelaine McMastersreads the articles she posts.

Read some, skim some, take some (most?) with a grain of salt. No one article moves my needle much, though I nearly jump out of my chair when one does.

I see hyperbole on all sides (I can't figure out how many there are) of the Covid-19 debate. There's a lot that went wrong and it'll take time to sort it out. It's the typical fog of war. When people ask me what I think of events recently in the news, I often say, "Ask me in a year or two."

ETA: I try to keep an open mind. Over the course of my life, much of my own certainty has been unwarranted. I've reason to believe I'm not alone in that, so I'm wary of certainty in others. The forum is truly welcome to scrutinize my thinking and find the flaws in it. I'll defend myself to the best of my ability and, if that ability is lacking, I'll hopefully come around.

I hate being wrong almost as much as the next girl?

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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10 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I was thinking more along the lines it may become law in certain states during cold/flu seasons for businesses; and may become like the 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' laws we have in California (this is mostly at beaches where people might be barefoot or the men shirtless as in swimming trunks only), as I heard masks will be part of the new normal.  So, I was thinking perhaps a law.

I don't see too many places doing that in the future.  I do think people will feel more.comfortable if they do choose to wear one.  Before Covid, anyone wearing a mask in public might have been thought of as an oddball.  Going forward after Covid, I don't think people will even give a second thought to anyone wearing a mask.  

It will be interesting to see how future flu seasons turn out.

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42 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I was thinking more along the lines it may become law in certain states during cold/flu seasons for businesses; and may become like the 'no shirt, no shoes, no service' laws we have in California (this is mostly at beaches where people might be barefoot or the men shirtless as in swimming trunks only), as I heard masks will be part of the new normal.  So, I was thinking perhaps a law.

I don't see how it becomes law. There are valid reasons to not wear masks and administering that would be a nightmare.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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14 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I don't see too many places doing that in the future.  I do think people will feel more.comfortable if they do choose to wear one.  Before Covid, anyone wearing a mask in public might have been thought of as an oddball.  Going forward after Covid, I don't think people will even give a second thought to anyone wearing a mask.  

It will be interesting to see how future flu seasons turn out.

I think it all depends on how far we get the covid-19 virus under control in the next couple of months.
There are a lot of uncertainties yet: Will herd immunity kick in, how long will the current vaccines protect, how will the covid-19 virus mutate (for the better or the worse)?
Depending on the answers we might have to formulate rules for a new normal.... or not.
Best is IMHO to do what you can to protect yourself (and no, a non medical mask or a face shield is not as safe as 6 feet distancing), wash your hands over and over, and lets wait and see what comes up in the next six months or so.

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1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

My niece 45, no medical history, so theoretically at low risk. She works in the funeral business so a lot of people around her, no possibility to work from home. Son 19 and daughter 17 work both as starting nurses in care centers. Husband works from home, no significant medical dossier either. So a low risk family to get severely ill.
They manage to work and stay clean from the corona virus for more than a year.  Careful people.

And now all of a sudden:
My niece in the hospital last week with breathing problems, got extra oxygen in medium care, husband is lying next to her also extra oxygen also breathing problems. The two kids at home, exhausted and milder breathing problems.
All four infected and seriously ill.
The doctors in hospital already announced that my niece and her husband will need months to fully recover from it.
My niece came home yesterday, is totally exhausted if she comes out of bed, goes to the bathroom and back.

So please don't even try to believe that bulls**t about lower risk.
The virus can take anybody down. At random.

The newer strain is getting more of the younger and healthier people than the first version did when it came through, I heard earlier..

That strain is supposed to be easier to catch and more harsh.

I know I'm not letting my guard down, because there is still a good ways to go yet..

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I think majority in this topic USA residents.. I don't know about politics but IMO despite bad start USA handling whole thing very good. I believe in next year it will be all green in USA.

Mask always helps while dealing with disease / toxic aerosol and droplet based threats. It is not 100% safe but it will significantly reduce initial viral load you take or cause on others which might be (still unknown but why risk it) key factor of death or recovery.

At summer its is hard to work with mask every 2 hour I change my mask because it gets wet.. I get away from people remove mask take fresh air and wear mask go back to work. Problem is sometimes people taking it next level and coming after me to say "wear mask". I guess everyone trying find someone to blame thanks to this pandemic.

Edited by RunawayBunny
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52 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I don't see how it becomes law. There are valid reasons to not wear masks and administering that would be a nightmare.

If it's random who wears or doesn't wear them though during cold/flu season, some businesses could think they are burglar.   Some businesses may even then say no masks allowed or we will assume you are burglar.  There were businesses that didn't like masks at first because of the fact it's hiding one's face like a burglar.  However, as far as the article on masks may be part of the new normal...the wording was 'may'.  It's not fully known yet.  

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4 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

If it's random who wears or doesn't wear them though during cold/flu season, some businesses could think they are burglar.   Some businesses may even then say no masks allowed or we will assume you are burglar.  There were businesses that didn't like masks at first because of the fact it's hiding one's face like a burglar.  However, as far as the article on masks may be part of the new normal...the wording was 'may'.  It's not fully known yet.  

Masks have been "normal" in Japan for decades. They are not mandated by law.

We've been losing 20-60K people per year due to influenza. This year we've lost 145. Masking and social distancing are the likely prime explanation for that dramatic reduction. Even in the face of that unwelcome experiment in airborne epidemiology, I don't see mask mandates progressing beyond their temporary, situation dependent, current form into federal law.

Asian countries, which have dealt with SARS type outbreaks before, do not have mask laws. There have instead enacted targeted mandates in hotspots, as well as travel restrictions and other mitigations. All of those have been temporary.

In a race between federal mask laws or increased government funding for early detection, vaccine R&D, and other mitigation strategies, I don't think mask laws will cross the finish line.

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7 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

That's been hypothesized for years.

If you're looking for correlations, there's also this...

https://hbr.org/2013/11/countries-with-better-english-have-better-economies

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-life-expectancy-election/life-expectancy-tied-to-voting-choices-in-last-u-s-presidential-election-idUSKCN1B22DI

https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/sc-hlth-0204-politics-life-span-20150129-story.html

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-00977-7

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/states-republican-governors-had-highest-covid-incidence-death-rates-study-n1260700

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/more-men-than-women-are-dying-from-covid-19-why/

I could go on, but finally...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11845-020-02500-3

Which is aware of the research you cite and contradicts it...

"The findings portrayed that there were no significant differences for the transmissibility of the virus between countries that mainly use a particular language that contains aspirated consonants and countries with languages that do not contain aspirated consonants. This corroborates the earlier findings of Georgiou and Kilani [13] who found no significant differences between the group of languages that use and the group of languages that do not use aspirated consonants. The commonplace between the two studies is that there were more cases of COVID-19 and the virus was more transmittable in languages that include aspirated consonants. However, the statistical analysis indicated that this difference was not important and therefore our initial hypothesis cannot be accepted."

Disease = dis-ease, easy to see how English spreads dis-ease!

Edited by Love Zhaoying
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On 4/11/2021 at 1:10 PM, Eddy Vortex said:

I was on the bus going home from a doctor's appointment and saw restaurants with little tents out on the sidewalk with people jammed packed in them. Shoulder to shoulder practically.

Those restaurant tents make no sense at all. Makes me question why people are so desperate to go out to eat right now. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with atmosphere...

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Folks are pretty desperate to have simple, hard-and-fast "rules" to follow. Many have somehow convinced themselves that "outdoors" is inherently safe, even if "outdoors" is practically sealed in a tent, or the "ventilation" is an unmasked bicyclist's breath as s/he passes by.

There are lots of reasons people really, really want to believe that kids are immune and in-person schooling is safe. I'm super skeptical that a kid's asymptomatic case of COVID isn't a timebomb, and I'm not so sure we've been testing broadly enough to know one way or another about spread of the virus in and from schools. To wit:

 

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23 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

As an aside, would you if you were a therapist, attempt to help a client by guilt and shaming them into better behaviour?  Have you in past had a therapist who did try to help you by doing that to you? If so, did it work for you?

I'm convinced you have no desire to change, but instead use the forum to intensify this 'alternate reality' mindset that energizes you so -- arguing with mainstream science adherents makes you feel stronger and more justified in your beliefs, and you fancy yourself as some kind of maverick. It's empowering to feel you've discovered the sekrit truth that only you and those in your club appear to know.

I really wouldn't mind so much as everyone has their own little quirks that gets them through the day, but your quirk is dangerous and those espousing it have killed hundreds of thousands in this Covid disaster. 

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This is pretty interesting..

They are saying that exercise can help a lot when infected.. Like if you were exercising beforehand it can reduce the chances of being hospitalized or even death..

I just thought it was interesting..

 

Edited by Ceka Cianci
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