Dear clothing merchants...

[Finite]

... please enable mod on your fatpacks. While I appreciate that you have made a selection of available colors, I'd personally like access to the entire spectrum of RGB than just the ones you have chosen for me. I completely understand why single items are no-mod but do not see the purpose in fatpacks also being no-mod.

Sincerely,

Finite - Avid shopper

Edited February 22, 2021 by Finite

[Freya Olivieri]

Speaking from a creators point of view.

Enabling mod potentially will break a product, its scripts and make it look like something entirely different and cause more headaches for creators. It compromises everything a creator spend many hours working on.

A creator gets a heap of IMs of so many issues already and this would be adding to more to their workload, having to deal with broken products. Some people don't understand that they can redeliver. And they will hound a creator in frustration (sometimes anger) if something is broken. People could drop random textures or accidentally wipe them and that will make product no longer look like the vision creator had.

While I can appreciate wanting to tint something and think a tint system could be potentially included in a fat-pack for clothing, I've done it once but it wasn't super popular choice so I did not continue. I could get on board to add such system to fat-packs (with 3-4 shades of grey base textures to achieve best results such as pastels, vibrant, dark etc). But if a texture has detail to it, or is a design or pattern, that presents with issues. Anything you tint will be solid one flat shade with only option being color blocking between certain mesh parts.

Something also overlooked is the fact that creators often have an artistic vision and they don't want it to be compromised by their texture changed to an unrecognizable state. What is the point of spending weeks on a project if a customer just wanted a piece of mesh to play with? Then might as well go buy yourself full perm and do whatever you wish with it.

Just my humble opinion I am sure that some will agree and some will disagree, everyone has their own way of working. But I think I speak for a lot of creators with no mod, who are tired of hearing no mod is "just pointless because it won't keep copybotters out" - that is not the sole reason, nor main one, why creators choose to stick with no mod.

Freya

 

[Finite]

1 hour ago, Freya Olivieri said:

Speaking from a creators point of view.

Enabling mod potentially will break a product, its scripts and make it look like something entirely different and cause more headaches for creators. It compromises everything a creator spend many hours working on.

A creator gets a heap of IMs of so many issues already and this would be adding to more to their workload, having to deal with broken products. Some people don't understand that they can redeliver. And they will hound a creator in frustration (sometimes anger) if something is broken. People could drop random textures or accidentally wipe them and that will make product no longer look like the vision creator had.

While I can appreciate wanting to tint something and think a tint system could be potentially included in a fat-pack for clothing, I've done it once but it wasn't super popular choice so I did not continue. I could get on board to add such system to fat-packs (with 3-4 shades of grey base textures to achieve best results such as pastels, vibrant, dark etc). But if a texture has detail to it, or is a design or pattern, that presents with issues. Anything you tint will be solid one flat shade with only option being color blocking between certain mesh parts.

Something also overlooked is the fact that creators often have an artistic vision and they don't want it to be compromised by their texture changed to an unrecognizable state. What is the point of spending weeks on a project if a customer just wanted a piece of mesh to play with? Then might as well go buy yourself full perm and do whatever you wish with it.

Just my humble opinion I am sure that some will agree and some will disagree, everyone has their own way of working. But I think I speak for a lot of creators with no mod, who are tired of hearing no mod is "just pointless because it won't keep copybotters out" - that is not the sole reason, nor main one, why creators choose to stick with no mod.

Freya

 

With all due respect, redelivery resolves every issue you speak of. Simply referring a customer to the redelivery takes very little time if any at all and could even be stated on a notecard attached to said product. Of the vendors who already regularly allow mod, most note that they will not assist with broken items and customers mod them at their own risks.  

As for artistic vision, in reference to clothing, I don't think the maker of my jeans would get upset if I ripped a hole in them for style. I find being upset that someone found more use than what was intended to be somewhat unbecoming. You should be pleased that they have found more reason to buy your product.

There are very good creators out there where modification is completely unnecessary. While others I find to be very good at mesh but not so much with the textures and you can tell by the saturation of the colors that only the SL color picker was used. It's really just these items that I would prefer to be mod. I should have specified that in my original statement.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Finite

[Quistess Alpha]

This has been an argument between sellers and buyers for a while now. 

 

 

[Finite]

18 minutes ago, Quistessa said:

This has been an argument between sellers and buyers for a while now. 

 

 

I was referring specifically to fatpack clothing products. Those seem to be about all mesh in general. I don't think mod is necessary for everything. But offering the ability to mod an outfit so that I can personalize it and not look like everyone else who wears it could be incentive enough for me to purchase the fatpack.

[Quistess Alpha]

I think the same general arguments apply. Creators don't want you to 'break' their stuff and then add to their customer service overhead, or make things worse than intended. there's also the caveat that a lot of full perm sellers put restrictions on 2nd party sellers, so if you buy a full perm thing and add a texture to it you may be restricted by license agreements from selling your product with mod permissions.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Quistessa

[Finite]

4 minutes ago, Quistessa said:

I think the same general arguments apply. Creators don't want you to 'break' their stuff and then add to their customer service overhead, or make things worse than intended. there's also the caveat that a lot of full perm sellers put restrictions on 2nd party sellers, so if you buy a full perm thing and add a texture to it you may be restricted by license agreements form selling your product with mod permissions.

I buy full perm for the purpose of personalizing outfits. Most allow mod as long as copy and transfer isn't also selected. IE, I can make a product copy/mod, or mod/transfer but never copy/transfer or copy/transfer/mod. Meli Imako, a commonly used full perm seller only states that: "You can not sell Meli Imako items with copy and transfer permission both clicked at the same time".

[Penny Patton]

Yeah, I'm not going to rehash my arguments from the linked threads, but I always encourage people to avoid buying no-mod content. There's almost always a modifiable alternative and if sellers see that no-mod isn't selling then they might rethink their anti-consumer practices.

[Nova Convair]

13 hours ago, Freya Olivieri said:

Enabling mod potentially will break a product, its scripts and make it look like something entirely different and cause more headaches for creators. It compromises everything a creator spend many hours working on.

That just tells the customer that they are too stupid to make changes or it shows the delusions of grandeur of teh creator. (hey I'm the greatest, everything someoen else does can only make things worse)

Solution: don't buy there

[Finite]

6 hours ago, Nova Convair said:

That just tells the customer that they are too stupid to make changes or it shows the delusions of grandeur of teh creator. (hey I'm the greatest, everything someoen else does can only make things worse)

Solution: don't buy there

I just want to reiterate I am not at all anti-nomod or anything. I was just making a suggestion to offer the mod feature for clothing fatpacks when there isn't really much variety in them other than just the color.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Finite

[Kyrie Deka]

On 2/22/2021 at 1:04 PM, Finite said:

like access to the entire spectrum of RGB than just the ones you have chosen for me.

Sellers create what they are moved to sell, at a price (high, moderate, low) they are inspired to offer those items at. 

The market corrects itself.  Buy what is available that inspires you.  Don't buy what doesn't make you happy.  Accept what is not yet available here or learn additional skills and invest that additional time and money to make it oneself.  

And so if you want yes-mod clothes, just buy full perm seller items.   That seems to solve the problem.   Except that full perm clothes boxes commonly need some (or a lot of) external work (on the part of the user/seller) to make them "just change colors" properly visually.  That investment on the part of a seller, gives them control over whether yes or no mod largely (reseller).  No investment of time and money, then we are limited by what is/not offered.   I think to myself who am I to question a seller's choices/boundaries/power-control related to what/how they sell an item(s).  I think judging a seller's option (short of fraud) on what/how they sell an item(s) is a waste of my time and good that it never occurs to me.  Do I send feedback that I believe they may disregard and accept the response? Do I stop shopping at their shops if I am not happy after spending?  Sure!   But hey, they earned the power to control those creations.  I just move on, or make my own while investing time/money.  

[Finite]

23 minutes ago, Kyrie Deka said:

  I think to myself who am I to question a seller's choices/boundaries/power-control related to what/how they sell an item(s). 

Answer: A customer or potential customer

24 minutes ago, Kyrie Deka said:

  I think judging a seller's option (short of fraud) on what/how they sell an item(s) is a waste of my time and good that it never occurs to me.  

Sellers open themselves to other people's opinions by the act of selling things. And opinions don't take much time at all.  Shopping and critiquing people's art work is a joy of mine in SL and is similar to what I do in real life with actual work pieces. However mostly with print works. I have a very high opinion and I don't necessarily need to be an expert in 3d mesh to have one or, in the case of this post, to make a mere suggestion about products in SL. I understand the process quite well actually, and can tell when something is baked mesh material or just secondlife system color texture (which is the type of fatpack this post refers to). 

 

 

[Kyrie Deka]

9 minutes ago, Finite said:

I understand the process quite well actually, and can tell when something is baked mesh material or just secondlife system color texture

Well then, sounds like feedback directly to the seller will get you exactly what you asked for in this case.  I would highly recommend you contact them and ask.  I have had very good luck with contacting sellers myself, who appreciate feedback.  

[Finite]

22 minutes ago, Kyrie Deka said:

Well then, sounds like feedback directly to the seller will get you exactly what you asked for in this case.  I would highly recommend you contact them and ask.  I have had very good luck with contacting sellers myself, who appreciate feedback.  

Well I wouldn't be interested in the seller here simply for what they were charging for the piece. It was 3k for a fatpack that had 1 texture with 25 secondlife color picker options. In the same event where FashionNatic (who is no-mod and I have absolutely zero issue with) is offering a giga-mega pack with high resolution, high quality baked materials with not just color options but also patterns as well for around 2450 (I believe). But I run into these types of fatpacks a lot where they are only color pickers and wonder why they don't just enable mod when someone purchases a fatpack. Hence me posting here. Maybe the real suggestion should be to SL in general to just take the color picker and transparency level off the mod altogether and just make it available regardless.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Finite

[Kyrie Deka]

You invest a good deal. I see where you are going with your thinking and I get it.  You removed the part about the fatpack you purchased in the earlier post in this thread, and I recall thinking you invested a good bit, and I get your comparison and reaction, I do.  But I think they know, and you and I know, whatever they make is whatever they make.  Sometimes given the seller's position, buying full perm has two responses.  They don't get your Lindens anymore as a customer, and NOW you're gonna make competing items at competitive prices.  I think there is always gonna be high-priced, inflexible sellers out there, and you and I aren't gonna change anyone.  

Sharing a funny example:  Search Marketplace > All Categories > resort by Price High to Low.  HAHA.   First up is a Linden $1 billion trophy that looks like someone on their 32nd day in SL built with blocks.  HAHA.  That's gonna make me laff all day now, how cool!  Anywho... what it comes down to I guess sometimes is, all we can hope for is quality in what we already spent.  If it isn't enough of a product still after talking with the seller and asking for ideal or a bit more flexibility, then maybe full perm and time/investment is the best, maybe only, option if one still wants a product that is able to be modified to our liking, to whatever degree.  

HAHA on the trophy.  There have been times I have purchased something at MP just to be able to give a great review for a job well done, or to balance out an unfair 1-star newbie review that happened before I got to the ad.  YAH no I'm not gonna pick up the L$1 billion trophy today.  HAHA at today's going Linden rate that makes it... HAHA

[Finite]

18 minutes ago, Kyrie Deka said:

Search Marketplace > All Categories > resort by Price High to Low.  HAHA.   First up is a Linden $1 billion trophy that looks like someone on their 32nd day in SL built with blocks.  HAHA.  That's gonna make me laff all day now, how cool!  Anywho... what it comes down to I guess sometimes is, all we can hope for is quality in what we already spent.  If it isn't enough of a product still after talking with the seller and asking for ideal or a bit more flexibility, then maybe full perm and time/investment is the best, maybe only, option if one still wants a product that is able to be modified to our liking, to whatever degree.  

HAHA on the trophy.  There have been times I have purchased something at MP just to be able to give a great review for a job well done, or to balance out an unfair 1-star newbie review that happened before I got to the ad.  YAH no I'm not gonna pick up the L$1 billion trophy today.  HAHA at today's going Linden rate that makes it... HAHA

OMG! I want the golden sammich!

[Freya Olivieri]

On 2/23/2021 at 11:50 AM, Nova Convair said:

That just tells the customer that they are too stupid to make changes or it shows the delusions of grandeur of teh creator. (hey I'm the greatest, everything someoen else does can only make things worse)

Solution: don't buy there

To YOU that says customer is too stupid - not to me. That came from your head not anyone else's. Just as far as saying "delusions of grandeur" is as incorrect for most creators as it could get. You cannot tell someone how or what they feel. If you believe you can do better job than a creator, that says a lot about you - not the creator. This is almost an attempt to manipulate ie. give me mod rights otherwise you are stuck up and you think you're too good and i won't buy from you. Just no. You shop wherever you want, but you can't tell people what they think.

You are absolutely correct that not everyone can do a better job than a creator - that's why they are a creator.

To me it's simple: an additional workload creators do not have the time for - customers returning with issues or rating creators badly because something broke - that would not arise if the item was no mod. Customers often won't read instructions alone, much less follow them. That doesn't make them stupid, that just means they may have not known they needed do so.

If you are buying just to play with the mesh and add your own textures/make your own personalized outfits, indeed buy full perm instead and make your own creations from those, nobody says you can't make your own creations out of the tools available to you. But you can't enforce this on a creator, it's their creation and their choice what to do with it.

On 2/22/2021 at 11:26 PM, Finite said:

As for artistic vision, in reference to clothing, I don't think the maker of my jeans would get upset if I ripped a hole in them for style. I find being upset that someone found more use than what was intended to be somewhat unbecoming. You should be pleased that they have found more reason to buy your product.

There are very good creators out there where modification is completely unnecessary. While others I find to be very good at mesh but not so much with the textures and you can tell by the saturation of the colors that only the SL color picker was used. It's really just these items that I would prefer to be mod. I should have specified that in my original statement.

Saying that the creator of your jeans wouldn't be upset if you ripped a hole in them for style - may be true in the real world. In SL things are different. You would either need to somehow get your hands on their texture or make your own - you can't do so without proper files, UV template and so forth. This would make it their mesh, not their texture. This would only be half-their creation. And you can't assume to know how the said creator would feel unless you asked them first. You can't hold creators to the same standards as full perm creators. Because other than no transfer there would be no difference. Why spend weeks working on something that in the end will be ripped apart for parts?

Perhaps not everyone wants their textures to be removed from their mesh. They are not a full perm creator and it's their right to preserve their vision. Not everyone wants their jeans to have a flowery full bright texture thrown on - they may not want to sign their name to your vision and your half-creation. This would make it a collaboration and they may not want to collab with you.

If a customer loves something they will buy it - if they don't If they don't they will move on. I am all for giving customers extra options, even something like tinting for fatpacks is not a bad idea if executed properly via a HUD. But textures are part of what most creators are selling with their mesh.

[Finite]

12 hours ago, Freya Olivieri said:

 

If a customer loves something they will buy it - if they don't If they don't they will move on. I am all for giving customers extra options, even something like tinting for fatpacks is not a bad idea if executed properly via a HUD. But textures are part of what most creators are selling with their mesh.

Hi Freya, This was part of my original reply to you.

On 2/22/2021 at 5:26 PM, Finite said:

 

There are very good creators out there where modification is completely unnecessary. While others I find to be very good at mesh but not so much with the textures and you can tell by the saturation of the colors that only the SL color picker was used. It's really just these items that I would prefer to be mod. I should have specified that in my original statement.

 

 

Also I wouldn't need your UV maps to texture an item. I could still individually texture the faces without this and with my own textures. The UV Map would be helpful but not required. Besides this post wasn't about editing textures. It's just about having access to the color box where a creator only used 1 plane texture and used the tint for colors.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Finite

[Quistess Alpha]

4 hours ago, Finite said:

It's just about having access to the color box where a creator only used 1 plane texture and used the tint for colors.

I think the point that most people are trying to get across is that a lot of, if not most creators of high quality mesh products do not just use the tint box to make different color options, they have a separate texture for each color option, because making a product that continues to look acceptable when tinted to values outside what the creator might have created requires making the mesh in a certain way to separate different color regions into different faces(materials) which is extra work, and can in some cases compromise the quality of the product compared to a non tintable version. Now, if Linden labs were to (somehow) add a tint-underlay option for mesh, that would make it easier for texture designers to make textures that would be compatible with a wider variety of user-end retinting, but I don't think that's going to happen soon.

[Finite]

9 minutes ago, Quistessa said:

I think the point that most people are trying to get across is that a lot of, if not most creators of high quality mesh products do not just use the tint box to make different color options, they have a separate texture for each color option, because making a product that continues to look acceptable when tinted to values outside what the creator might have created requires making the mesh in a certain way to separate different color regions into different faces(materials) which is extra work, and can in some cases compromise the quality of the product compared to a non tintable version. Now, if Linden labs were to (somehow) add a tint-underlay option for mesh, that would make it easier for texture designers to make textures that would be compatible with a wider variety of user-end retinting, but I don't think that's going to happen soon.

That's understood but this post isn't directed toward the experienced or highly-skilled creator (however a few of them still allow mod regardless). I've mentioned this a few times throughout this thread. So if this is the point "most" (i see 2) people are trying to make then I am afraid you are off-topic.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Finite

[Quistess Alpha]

3 minutes ago, Finite said:

this post isn't directed toward the experienced creator

Well, if you have a problem some unnamed inexperienced creators, why don't you try reasoning with them directly? Also, nothing in the previous posts suggests your only talking about inexperienced creators. It sounds like you're trying to move the goalposts.

[Finite]

20 minutes ago, Quistessa said:

Well, if you have a problem some unnamed inexperienced creators, why don't you try reasoning with them directly? Also, nothing in the previous posts suggests your only talking about inexperienced creators. It sounds like you're trying to move the goalposts.

You're more than welcome to read my posts above where I did mention it but using your same logic, no one asked you to post in this thread. But you felt compelled to much like how I felt compelled to make a thread in an open forum.

PS naming the creators isn't allowed according to this forum's TOS. If it were I would make a post about who are posers and who are legit.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Finite

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 2/22/2021 at 4:27 PM, Freya Olivieri said:

Something also overlooked is the fact that creators often have an artistic vision and they don't want it to be compromised by their texture changed to an unrecognizable state. What is the point of spending weeks on a project if a customer just wanted a piece of mesh to play with? Then might as well go buy yourself full perm and do whatever you wish with it.

You mean like the designer of the hoodie I bought who apparently had the artistic vision that wearing a hoodie should turn off the wearer's feet so they set up their non-removable auto-alpha script that way?

[Finite]

14 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You mean like the designer of the hoodie I bought who apparently had the artistic vision that wearing a hoodie should turn off the wearer's feet so they set up their non-removable auto-alpha script that way?

That's likely a side-effect to using the same script for multiple items. Maybe something that had shoes (however if the rig is good you wouldnt need an auto-hider for feet..) 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Finite

[Freya Olivieri]

34 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

You mean like the designer of the hoodie I bought who apparently had the artistic vision that wearing a hoodie should turn off the wearer's feet so they set up their non-removable auto-alpha script that way?

Now you're just throwing things out for the sake of throwing things out. Clearly that is not what I meant. If you bought something and it has an alpha error, the normal thing to do is to reach out to a creator and ask them for a fixed version. Not sit there steaming that the creator is not perfect. Nobody is perfect - everyone make mistakes, especially when packing hundreds of items into boxes.

The kindest of customers let creators know of any issues early on so they can quickly correct them. Auto alpha scripts exist to help customer and save them time from fiddling with their body HUD, as well as auto remove alphas upon detaching - if a creator messed up they will be grateful if you let them know.

5 hours ago, Finite said:

Hi Freya, This was part of my original reply to you.

Also I wouldn't need your UV maps to texture an item. I could still individually texture the faces without this and with my own textures. The UV Map would be helpful but not required. Besides this post wasn't about editing textures. It's just about having access to the color box where a creator only used 1 plane texture and used the tint for colors.

Yes Finite, I understand - I'm just arguing the point people make when they say they want to tint things. I completely understand your point about tinted items sold as single colors. Personally I wouldn't do it and most creators I know don't either. But I am certain it does happen among creators who like to make things move faster. I do agree that just tinting textures and loading them up as single colors is a lot less work and not as high quality. Absolutely, I can't defend that.

But again working without proper bakes and UV maps would be trial and error... like painting a picture in the dark. You'd have to be extremely skilled to do that. Personally I couldn't pass that test, but kudos to you if you can.