The Big Disincentive of the Auctions

[Prokofy Neva]

Ouch, the auctions have changed and I learned the hard way by losing. We applied for some abandoned land, and got the message that it had to go to auction due to multiple requests. Later I discovered the person who won the auction was in fact an end user and will be a nice neighbour -- and in fact he hadn't asked for the abandoned land, which means those who asked likely went away, likely land barons who will only buy "General" at their own fixed rate, even if "sailing land" -- very broadly understood (and the VERY broad understanding of this concept of "sailing" if visible in ridiculous prices continents away from the Blake Sea.) It's either that, or the Lindens are saying there are multiple requests when there aren't, and it's merely that they've decided on their own to auction land that is waterfront "sailable".  Of course they can do what they want, but I wish they had an open and consistent policy. 

I asked on live help and missed it by a few minutes and got forced into a ticket answered two days after the close of the auction by a Linden who said my question wasn't clear, could I provide more details and screenshots?

I don't see what could be more clear: why couldn't I see the remainder of my bid? The "balance" is only my actual balance on my account overall at that moment, not the remainder of the original bid. So there's a simple problem I learned about again the hard way by losing: they don't display the actual total original bid. You just have to remember it.

Yes, I know how to refresh pages. I'm on Chrome. Nothing is lagging. One annoyance is that if you aren't glued to the screen and go away for an hour, a refresh can log you out, and also put you on the "Place Pages" screen where you have to hunt for "auctions" or log in, losing precious seconds, but whatever, I'm used to that.

So if I put in $10,000, there is no place on the current interface that shows that $10,000, or what remains of it. Yes, I know how to add and subtract, even being "challenged" with math -- if my current bid is $2000, then $8000 remains.

So if the opening bid is $2000, then it stays at that. It goes up in increments of 10 as others bid. But meanwhile, the balance showing is my account balance, let's say another $11,911, not the $8000 remaining. Yes, I'll have to add $11,911 and $8000 to get the answer for how much I can bid. But a) why do I have to do that and b) why can't I add more until I am losing?!

Again, the balance shown is NOT the balance of your remaining first bid total -- it's the balance in your account. I totally understand that they don't want people to bid with money they don't have. That was the bane of the last auctions, forcing cancellations, none payment, and unfairness. But what is so hard about showing both remainder of first bid AND account balance??? And for extra credit, showing "amount you can bid now" and letting you bid that.

Because WORSE there is no way to add to your original bid to make sure you can keep winning. You are stuck waiting for a land baron to snipe you 5 minutes before the close, and hope you can refresh your page faster and get or put in Lindens faster.

Yes, I realize your experience may be different - it always is! But I'm on Chrome, I know how to refresh a wage, and that "bid" bar is simply unclickable. There is no way to bid more.

That means I can't put in $20,000, let's say, and go away; I have to keep watching the nail-biting finish. There won't be enough time to buy more Lindens especially if you don't opt for "instant" but opt for "10 minutes" to get a better rate.

Since the old auction let you add to your original bid, it's hard to understand why it doesn't now, given if you have an "account balance" to cover it, it should let you add.

It forces you to wait until you are losing, often minutes before closing, then add to your bid only with your available balance. This obviously puts the advantage to land barons who deliberately bid on many auctions to keep the price of land high and have huge amounts of operating capital.

The only reasonable thing then it to put in what you are prepared to pay for a parcel and possible then some, obtain that amount, and bid it on the first amount.  But there are lots of situations where I can see this really limits you unnecessarily. Let's say you have $20,000. You bid on two lots you want, with the plan to see how they go and then drop out of one. It's not going to refund your money until you lose, which seems a useful brake on land baron practices of bidding all over just to keep the price up. But let's say you decide to buy another $10,000, or use another $10,000 to get one of them you decide is worth getting. You can't, until you are losing, which can be a minute before the bell.

Again, I think requests for abandoned land by those with land on that sim should simply be honoured on a first come, first served basis, and I wish that auctions of only those in the sim could be held, although I suppose it's a coding or adaption process too hard and expensive to do.

It seems to me from what I can understand of it now, that the system still favours land barons, and maybe that's as it should be, as they supply the Lindens' bread and butter, not small time rental agents and developers like me. So that means they are unlikely to limit numbers of different bids on different parcels as that will curb business and also lead to people using collusion and cartels with alts or people with different log-ins to beat that limitation and it's too expensive for the Lindens to curb that in terms of times or tech. 

 

So what's better about the auctions in their new format is that many bids open at 0.5/meter which is less than abandoned land costs from the Lindens. So that means that if there is some dog patch of a lot out there you want, you may be able to pick it up for 0.5/meter or less than 0.1 meter if no one is bidding on it.

But what's better is that you cannot add to your original bid before you are losing. That seems only to curb use of the auctions by legitimate users, and it certainly will for me. 
 

[MirandaBowers]

Huh, this opened my eyes to two new key pieces of information.

1. I was always under the assumption that they let locals on the same sim get first dibs on abandoned land. I would have to agree that it seems like it would be more fair to sell the land to someone directly asking for it before it hits auction.

2. While I have placed a few bids of my own, I agree that we should be able to add onto our previous bid at any point in time. I've run into the scenario where I bid on a piece of land, sleep on the idea overnight, and then wakeup to realize I want it more than I originally thought but am barred from increasing what I was willing to pay.

[Paul Hexem]

On 2/11/2021 at 9:19 PM, MirandaBowers said:

1. I was always under the assumption that they let locals on the same sim get first dibs on abandoned land. I would have to agree that it seems like it would be more fair to sell the land to someone directly asking for it before it hits auction.

I've run into issues with support before regarding abandoned land. It's particularly offensive when you see land that's been abandoned for weeks, months, or years right on the region with you, you ask for it to be set for sale... and they put it up to auction or sale while you're sleeping and some bot scoops it up, so that some land baron can inflate the price to some ridiculous amount.

Makes me think that many of these land barons are Linden alts gaming the system, hoping you'll pay their inflated price for the parcel you wanted.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Paul Hexem

[Prokofy Neva]

On 2/15/2021 at 4:26 PM, Paul Hexem said:

I've run into issues with support before regarding abandoned land. It's particularly offensive when you see land that's been abandoned for weeks, months, or years right on the region with you, you ask for it to be set for sale... and they put it up to auction or sale while you're sleeping and some bot scoops it up, so that some land baron can inflate the price to some ridiculous amount.

Makes me think that many of these land barons are Linden alts gaming the system, hoping you'll pay their inflated price for the parcel you wanted.

I actually see no evidence that the people on the auction and the land baron class are "Linden alts".  I mean, ask yourself, if you are a fairly highly-paid engineer with a salary in the six figures, or even someone with a different role" with under six figures, why you would supplement that job with an SL land business? The SL land business is a cruel, unforgiving, arbitrary world. Very, very few make anything like a RL living from it. Those that brag that they do on YouTube are nowhere now, a fact easily established by Googling. Island owners at the 100 amount or more might make bank. People idealistic enough or clueless enough to work the Mainland mainly only lose money. I can think of only one or two *Mainland* based land business that were in operation 10 years ago and are still here today.

I suppose in theory, the Lindens could benefit by looking the other way while their own staff or their close friends game the auction, but I actually think they monitor such ethical issues more now, and there isn't enough of an incentive. I assume auctions in Linden dollars are sinks, not sources -- but that's one of the things we are never told. It costs more in staff time to clean up and re-set land to the auction and then deliver it than can be made from the Linden-denominated revenue -- unless it's a very lucrative parcel like Bay City or Blake. But look at the offerings. Most are scrub pine land or beaten up "waterview" or rocky interiors.

So some schmo trying to pick up abandoned land and keep a trading tier -- that person in fact may be pitied. There are varying types of such people -- who are a dying breed compared to the glory days of SL land business when the Lindens auctioned off whole sims as well as parcels and the world was constantly growing and new continents were appearing. There are refined and decent ones who have no unscrupulous practices and make the offerings look good, whether at some boutique price or a reasonable price, and those who use tricks and gimmicks and sharp business practices to unload their land. I think the feature of the auction system that enables people to put in bids simultaneously on numerous auctions and jack the price up in general is not a feature of capitalism, which is part of an open society under the rule of law, but the oligarchy of a closed society. I think the Lindens should put back on the auction the information of who bids and who wins the auctions -- which they used to do. 

I've noticed anecdotally that the land baron grabbing PG land out from under a sim where I and 2 other long-time residents with nice builds own the land, while I am asleep at night, and flipping it for at least twice if not five times for what he paid ($1/m) -- is the same one who has not only a land business but various large and visible clubs and who later misrepresents his land for sale on another sim. But even if he makes "millions," and is close to his Linden friends, I don't see that at the end of the day, in real-life terms, he's anything but a small-time operator. An Amazon store or a Pond photo stock web page would earn you a lot more than SL, which requires a lot of repetitive and boring work. Normally, you cannot pay yourself.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Qie Niangao]

On 2/15/2021 at 4:26 PM, Paul Hexem said:

I've run into issues with support before regarding abandoned land. It's particularly offensive when you see land that's been abandoned for weeks, months, or years right on the region with you, you ask for it to be set for sale... and they put it up to auction or sale while you're sleeping [...]

48 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I've noticed anecdotally that the land baron grabbing PG land out from under a sim where I and 2 other long-time residents with nice builds own the land, while I am asleep at night, [...]

[Emphases mine]

I guess direct sale of abandoned land without auction might happen any time a Land Linden decides to do it, maybe motivated by a healthy backlog of pending auction parcels, or the land seems unlikely to beat the standard L$1/sq.m. price for direct sales, or some other reason known only to Lindens.

It would suck if they direct-sold land to a favored flipper when it had just been requested by somebody else after sitting abandoned for a long time.

Putting it to auction, though, that's not so sneaky. The Open Auctions page (such as it is) lists each auction for 48 hours before bids close, and there's some prior notice, and a record of recent auctions, so they aren't happening under cover of night or anything.

(I haven't used auctions in a while and have no insight about it not showing the bidder their own winning limit bid, nor permitting them to add to their still winning bid. Doesn't seem ideal, but the whole auctions page is pretty clunky.)

Oh, a tangential thing about "sources" and "sinks" -- it's merely terminology, but any L$-denominated payment from resident to the Lab is formally termed a "sink" because it removes that bunch of L$s from circulation. Sinks are generally good for the Lab because, given a steady demand for L$ money supply, they'll eventually take in some US$s in exchange for new L$s -- formally, a L$ "source" to offset the earlier L$ "sink" -- unless it gets offset by stipend, the other major L$ source, monetized by Premium subscriptions.

[Paul Hexem]

2 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Putting it to auction, though, that's not so sneaky.

Oh, it's not sneaky. It's just incredibly frustrating.

Been abandoned for god knows how long, you're ready to expand, and instead of just setting it for sale to you (which can and has been done, is not against any rules or anything), it's instead set for auction, which almost effectively guarantees a flipper will get it and jack up the price to far more than it's worth.

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

Oh, it's not sneaky. It's just incredibly frustrating.

Been abandoned for god knows how long, you're ready to expand, and instead of just setting it for sale to you (which can and has been done, is not against any rules or anything), it's instead set for auction, which almost effectively guarantees a flipper will get it and jack up the price to far more than it's worth.

Some of this lack of accountability could be fixed by having transparency on the auctions of who is bidding and who won -- which we had before. Why? Because the Lindens were a) more motivated to do so and b) had a different software system handling the auctions. But then, several things happened. First, the Bragg lawsuit, in which a land dealer tried to invoke the hacker culture that Linden Lab itself embraced at the time (2006) to claim he had been swindled out of his land. I and others sided with the Lindens, and with the judge (who for different reasons perhaps) dismissed the case. The scam hinged on that kind of hacker "math in the browser" baloney such as the notorious hacker Weev invoked in his prosecution. So that meant this SL user and like-minded could endlessly word-salad on this topic and harass people like me who publicly condemned it. But I think even SUG office-hour denizens today, much less Lindens, would agree this was a criminal act, for which the Lindens had every right to boot the exploiter. Should they at least compensate him for his assets on his way out the door? The adjudication of virtual assets is one of those things the courts of the world are still deciding.

So long and short, it seems at this time, the Lindens changed to a new software to handle the auctions. Or maybe it's not connected. Because there's also the factor of the "e-bay guy". I think the way it worked, is they had their own coded system, then they changed to the e-bay type of system using a form of e-bay's software. (Or maybe I have this backwards, or maybe it's out of date, I can't find the information now). So Jack Linden explained some years ago that now they "can't" put the names of bidders and winners, the way e-bay auctions don't do so. I'm skeptical of that, of course, for one, because when an ebay item goes up for auction, you can see the name at least of the person offering the item whom you will pay, if not the other bidders.

It's like the JIRA. The Lindens said you "can't" vote no on the JIRA (which BTW is a key tenet of software cultism) but in fact when I caught up with the makers of JIRA at a tech fair, they said of course you could. You could adapt it as you wish, and that could be a feature. Of course, JIRA itself shares the same cultic notion that you "can't" or "shouldn't" vote "no" because that's "negative" (LOL) but they conceded that there was nothing about the system that prevented you from having up and down yes/no votes on a proposed feature or bug catch in the JIRA. 

So some obsessive types could scamper around and try to see who got the auction land inworld, but since they can get flipped so fast, and sometimes merely flipped among alts, it's a fool's errand.

It would be great if there were local auctions where only the existing owners on that sim, which you discover with a simple land scan of owners in LSL script even, could be the only participants. Given how many no-shows there are, and people reluctant to get involved, the Lindens can't move their land this way effectively, and they are not going to devote resources to such a local auction. They think the "resident-to-resident" auction they developed should deal with such things -- except they closed that, and with good reason.

So I think there IS IN FACT a policy they could adopt right now and prevent these incredibly frustrating events that you have suffered and I have suffered. Only those who are existing owners on a sim can request land valued enough to go to auction, i.e. waterfront, large parcels. If more than one request from the same small existing owners come in, the one date-stamped the earliest wins.

Recently, a request about a certain PG waterfront got the answer that "it's going to auction because it's only fair when there are multiple requests."

I would simply give it to the first date-stamped request and be done with it, even allowing for the ability of land-scanners to be fast when I'm asleep. But they don't want to do that -- see my point about the "egalitarianism" of the Linden Homes. That is, under the theory that a new player of SL might be as swift and working the dials, if he wasn't an existing owner on that sim, he, too, should have the right as anyone else to bid for it on the auction.

So it went to auction, I experienced the frustrations outlined above, and lost it. But here is part 2:

I caught up with the buyer, who seemed like "just a guy," an end user, not someone flipping as a land baron, but then, his profile was rather bare. We discussed the merits of the parcel, which, after all, was not only G but kind of bumpy and with grass texture, i.e. not ideal waterfront and not exactly close to sailing hotspots either, although I suppose with determination, it could be. So we exchanged friendship cards, and I urged him to IM me if he changed his mind and didn't want to keep this parcel, that I would buy it from him, and stressed that he should not abandon it, because then I'd face this same frustrating process again.

So we went our separate ways, and then maybe a week later, I log in near that area and discover, my God, it's abandoned AND the person is gone from the people list. Well, what do you know. Why? It happened too quick to have been a non-payment issue unless of course he was already at the end of a 30-day period and embarking on a second one. It wasn't clear what happened -- and then he showed back up again some weeks later. Maybe he was indeed a land flipper. Or maybe "just a guy" who bit off more than he can chew. Odd.

I went and requested it again, pointing out that it would really be better if they accepted only requests from those who owned on the sim, that I was a "keeper" as an existing owner, not like a rando coming on the auctions. And was told they had such requests, from existing owners. I pointed to the ultimate winner, who bought it and dumped it again, and had not to my knowledge been a property owner on our sim, unless it was under an alt. And they said the original requesters don't always later bid, but once it's on an open auction, anyone can.

You can't win arguments like this because all truth resides server-side, remember? And it's true enough. The Lindens know who is bidding and who is paying and either work out among themselves ways to thwart this, given their "egalitarianism" ethos -- or don't, because at the end of the day, they need to sell the land.

@Qie Yes, I'm aware that in theory, all Linden-denominated sales are sinks. So that means texture uploads, group fees, auctions, partnership requests (did I leave anything out).

At least, that was what we were told back in the era before 2007 or so when the Lindens frankly discussed all such things.

But now? Now I'm not sure. Because NOW, they have the millions and millions of Linden dollars coming in from the Marketplace. So, sure, I totally get it that sinks are of value and not just mere burning of dollar bills because they tighten the money supply, and then that makes the value go up. Or should. Except...the Lindens keep it at an equilibrium. They used to use Supply Linden who just inserted printed cash, if you will, to weaken the value. Does Supply Linden still operate? You don't know. Unless a Linden has privately told you.

Because again, we're talking about real money now on the MP, the fees on every sale (not the revenue from the sales themselves, which go to the creator or user) (the auction just doesn't produce much revenue, there are only 100-odd pieces a day, some of them are real dogs and sell for nothing or don't even sell).

So you're QUITE sure that these are all now merely sinks, removing money? Then how can they maintain the 240 equilibrium? Perhaps there's another system -- they have a set resale value for themselves, so that they can sell the MP money and themselves make real dollars. Outside their traditional sink/source system. That the MP is the exception. Maybe the auction, too. Remember, the Lindens have way more dollars in their system now, even with a declining population from the glory days, because they didn't have an MP to scoop tax from before. How can they keep Linden sales and taxation merely as sinks? How is this done now? Again, maybe you have a theory, but I doubt you have the facts. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Qie Niangao]

8 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So you're QUITE sure that these are all now merely sinks, removing money? Then how can they maintain the 240 equilibrium? Perhaps there's another system -- they have a set resale value for themselves, so that they can sell the MP money and themselves make real dollars. Outside their traditional sink/source system. That the MP is the exception. Maybe the auction, too. Remember, the Lindens have way more dollars in their system now, even with a declining population from the glory days, because they didn't have an MP to scoop tax from before. How can they keep Linden sales and taxation merely as sinks? How is this done now? Again, maybe you have a theory, but I doubt you have the facts. 

I not only don't have the facts, I don't understand the question. In particular, I don't know that there even is a "traditional sink/source system" per se; rather, I think it's nomenclature—or notation—for doing exactly what you describe: selling L$s at a target price, keeping the exchange rate from fluctuating. Are those L$s the same ones they got from Marketplace commissions? Why does it matter?

If the Lab suddenly started selling L$s on the spot market (that is, satisfying the best open buy bid), that would be different—and the L$ would fluctuate wildly. Because the exchange rate is so stable, I'm pretty sure they simply maintain sell orders at the target price and probably a few ticks beyond as a backstop, just as we always assumed they did.

There could be a difference in when they do the sources/sinks "accounting" and they could theoretically track how long it takes for this month's haul of Marketplace L$ commissions to sell, but I doubt they even bother. Rather I imagine they just keep track of total volumes to make sure a new Premium membership program, say, doesn't threaten to overwhelm sinks with source stipends, and of course to book actual US$ revenue for those L$s they sell.

[Prokofy Neva]

13 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

I not only don't have the facts, I don't understand the question. In particular, I don't know that there even is a "traditional sink/source system" per se; rather, I think it's nomenclature—or notation—for doing exactly what you describe: selling L$s at a target price, keeping the exchange rate from fluctuating. Are those L$s the same ones they got from Marketplace commissions? Why does it matter?

If the Lab suddenly started selling L$s on the spot market (that is, satisfying the best open buy bid), that would be different—and the L$ would fluctuate wildly. Because the exchange rate is so stable, I'm pretty sure they simply maintain sell orders at the target price and probably a few ticks beyond as a backstop, just as we always assumed they did.

There could be a difference in when they do the sources/sinks "accounting" and they could theoretically track how long it takes for this month's haul of Marketplace L$ commissions to sell, but I doubt they even bother. Rather I imagine they just keep track of total volumes to make sure a new Premium membership program, say, doesn't threaten to overwhelm sinks with source stipends, and of course to book actual US$ revenue for those L$s they sell.

I would have to hunt a long time to find Linden posts on this but they used to have even economists on staff who explained this. There was Lawrence Linden who coded the LindEx and T-Bone Linden who later managed it. Google the terms and you'll find some articles.

It seems to me there's a difference between cash REMOVED from the system, thereby tightening the supply and cash SOLD AT A FIXED RATE which can keep the rate stable or if changed can cheapen the money supply.

So they must have a secret formula for this, secret so it won't be gamed. Some burned, some sold at a fixed rate.

And they can sell at a fixed rate, but have their own supply sitting in accounts that they don't sell at once, i.e. they release it in batches. Supply Linden.

If they sell Lindens of any kind, at a fixed rate or on the spot market, they get dollars in return. Real dollars. Selling Lindens yields real dollars.

Whereas removing cash, such as texture uploads, is removing cash, it's a sink. It goes away. Yes, there are "sinks and sources" of theories about money and economics. I'm referring to the way I believe it was interpreted in SL. One problem is that no Linden will discuss this now. So if you know better, you are welcome to have the last word.

 

[Crim Mip]

It seems to me that if multiple people put in requests for a parcel, they should be the only ones able to bid on it. That would lock out the flippers that only bid because they know somebody else wants it, not because they actually want to use it for themselves.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 3/17/2021 at 6:04 PM, Crim Mip said:

It seems to me that if multiple people put in requests for a parcel, they should be the only ones able to bid on it. That would lock out the flippers that only bid because they know somebody else wants it, not because they actually want to use it for themselves.

Well, we can dream about how it should be done or devise ideas for it, but the reality is, the Lindens have one, coded, operating auction. They don't have a second, coded, operating auction that is closed to all but a given sim's owners.

So the question can be put to them: can you spare staff time to code up a separate, closed auction system that is only used when several people on one sim want the same piece of abandoned land, so it's fair?

And their answer will be, the cost of justice is always very high, and the use case is too rare. How many times does this happen? It seems to loom large to you on your sim but honestly, it happens only 0.00005 percent of the time. So we will have to ask you to go on fending for yourselves on such auctions as we have coded and put in operation, since often you will still get what you want, even if you pay a little more.

So then you could say (as I have), can you code in just one more feature which is publication of those bidding and winning auctions. Once a land baron has a bad reputation for buying and jacking up prices on dozens of auctions or flipping for ridiculous prices to keep up value, then people can boycott him and not buy from him until he stops doing that or modifies his behaviour. That is indeed a long shot but it's at least one long-term possibility.

To which the Lindens will say two things, if anything at all: a) the existing coded auction system we have in operation cannot be modified as you wish or is too expensive and hard to modify; b) we have no need to name and shame and see boycotted some of the best customers for our lousy Mainland.

Alternatively, you could ask them not to code a separate, closed auction but simply have a POLICY NOT CODE: treat all abandoned land, regardless of type or location or value or rating as a ticket item, and award it only to the first person who puts in the ticket. In some ways, it is easier and less expensive to have POLICY NOT CODE but politically, it's harder to get passed.

That creates some issues like timing, as people are on different time zones, etc. and it also means too many things will sit unnoticed. The auctions is a way of fronting the merchandise. So even with their inclination towards fairness tempered by their need to sell untiered land, they would not likely change a thing as what they have now "works well enough".