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Attention LL marketing - IMVU is after you


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I've seen quite a few people coming to SL from IMVU over the last year.  I'm not even sure it's comparing the same thing as I've never checked it out.   This kind of bothered me when I read their

IMVU pitch: "Avoid FOMO and Get It!" This is what some people get searching for Second Life. IMVU's landing page is cooler than SL's landing page. Second Life's landing page now requires a

Yet another variation of the ever popular Chicken Little threads .... Seriously, give it a rest already. IMVU is not even close to comparable to Second Life and caters to an entirely different de

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20 hours ago, Mollymews said:

the Linden viewer does Replace Links this way as well. Am pretty sure it was in the Linden viewer first and subsequently surfaced in the TPVs

Replace Links was a Firestorm specific feature by Ansariel Hiller which was contributed to LL & added to the LL viewer.

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6 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

But there is a concern of whether this could set them up with false expectations. Maybe that's still better than the current situation, I couldn't say.

As you say it is better than what is there.

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I don't think BDO is a good example of "clean menus" or "not overloading the user with information."

Oh I agree, BDO menu's are a mess -  I myself can never find things and have played it for ages. What I was trying to show is not to copy their menu system but have the main menu's in SL not at the top taking up screen space but as they have the menu in BDO. When you press ESC it appears from the side from no-where and in SL would have all the same menu's in it but more logical. In other words it only takes up space when in use and needed.

LL did do a slide menu on the original V2 but used it in the wrong way and used it for the wrong things and therefore it was a failure. People wanted their main windows separate to move around so they didn't like that option (I did but that's another story).

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Simplified, modernized, or dumbed down is good. If it doesn't need to be as complicated as it is, it shouldn't be.

I agree there is simply to many things that contradict, shown when the option isn't available, or in the case of Solar's outfit example hidden away from windows that serve that purpose.

How would any new user know about the replace links option when you need to go to the inventory to do it when you have a dedicated window for outfits. Everything involving outfits, management, sorting, replacing etc should be done in that outfit window - not the inventory away from the dedicated space.

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Regarding the outfit folders images, they should be able to be tied to local files on the computer, not in-world assets. No one else is ever going to see your outfit folder images, because there simply isn't a way to do so.

Niran said there was a reason so assume that to be the case. I do imagine that using local files could be problematic especially if you need to do a clean install. Would loose all your pictures then.

Think a upload, pay and refund option would be the best but may it all backend so the user doesn't see it.

6 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Objectives, yes.

Prizes, no. Prizes and objects require there own interactions and may easily spawn questions the users is not capable of addressing at that point. If the skill isn't indicative of future activity don't teach it.

Ok misuse of word on my point. I meant currency not physical prizes.

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Crash and burn.

"Exploration" is not an end goal, it is not a viable on ramp, and is not a primary purpose. Exploration is something that happens because .........

You may have missed my point about the user at account creation selecting what they are interested in doing in SL. That would govern their starting area and their first experience. Sure exploration is just what it is now, but giving them objectives as well as catering to what they are interested in doing in SL is what I was meaning. Believe it or not some people like exploring from the start. I did.

The difference is the sims must be of good quality, populated with no lag and be engaging.

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Free Lindens will be botted to hell and back,

What ever it is it shouldn't matter. Whether it be lindens, tokens, unicorns. It doesn't matter so long as they are given something which they can spend on any item in SL to alleviate the "it was too expensive to look good" reason.

Anything is botted in SL. Linden Realms, Money Trees, Fishing, Camping Chairs. All are botted but it should not impact on getting people into SL and retaining them. There are ways in limiting it as well.

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A basic viewer option was tried. it was very basic. it didn't help.

I am not saying a basic viewer. I am saying simplify the menu's. If the menu item is greyed out as it is impossible to do don't show it. If the menu is only called in certain situations don't show it until then, If there is a dedicated window for something (i.e., landmarks, outfit etc) have every option available in that menu and not having to know about hidden parts of that in another window.

There are many ways to simplify and make a UI user friendly without removing functionality.

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There is no pie menu in the official viewer, that has been dead for years.

I know there isn't and is why I mentioned it. It was removed from the default viewer because it was different to the norm and many people hated it.

5 hours ago, animats said:

New Resident Island has something like that. There are walkthrough tutorials that get you Ruth or Roth, the open-source avatars, and tell you how to use them. Then there's a freebie area where you can get more clothing.

As I mentioned I haven't been there in a while. When I went there you did the tutorials in the avatar you chose at account creation and then were awarded tokens after completing the tasks that you spent at vendors at the end. It probably may have changed.

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The trouble is, there's not much really good clothing for Ruth and Roth. And Roth isn't that well-proportioned an avatar; it's really a Ruth with a flattened chest. (Ankles and shoulders are female sized, regardless of slider settings.)

What's really needed are starter avatars that come with about a dozen outfits that Just Work, and stores where users can buy more. Preferably fitmesh. Fitmesh is harder for the creator and easier for the user; either it fits or it doesn't. If it doesn't fit, the body sliders will not help the user make it fit.

Mesh avatar with fitmesh clothing is SL's best clothing system, but it's not the dominant one. A fitmesh-only fashion event might be a way to kickstart this.

Yeah, I agree on all of what you said, male proportions on the default avatar are terrible as is their mesh hence why I believe they should be updated.

Edited by Drayke Newall
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7 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

 some things like the nearby-interaction action that pops up when looking at people wouldn't make sense as SL's experience would not gain anything from showing such a menu dynamically and worse it wouldn't work as good replacement since we should be able to interact with people at all times, regardless of distance.

You are right. As mentioned was a suggestion more so in showing how simple the menu is.

7 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

SL's biggest problem is its necessary complexity and dumbing down is really not the way to go unless dumbing down in this case stands for logically simplifying things (such as the login screen and UI size changes mentioned). Sadly SL's greatest trait is missed/ignored by the community so much that SL constantly has to fight itself and its userbase to try and strike an arguably irrelevant and stupid "balance". It's like you want to play Dwarf Fortress or Space Station 13 (both extremely complex and intricate old games that require extensive research and knowledge to be operated even remotely decently) but don't want to invest the time in actually learning how they work, so you take shortcuts that in turn cut down both on the fun and content and ultimately make it something much less than it actually is. SL has the same issue with all its own mechanics and functions and most people are not willing to learn how they work and instead expect everything to work right out of the box, creating an unrealistic demand for "dumbed down" features and mechanics which ultimately hurts SL and those that want to delve into more complex things. See Materials, which was originally planned to be more.

That is precisely what I mean. There is no reason to dumb down SL. Simplifying it logically however is needed. Menu's hidden when not in use, having things in places where they make sense not in two different locations outside of dedicated windows. Things like that are needed. Removing functionality just to make things simple however should not be done.

Simplification can also mean adding things to make life easy. Such as the ability to change inventory icons to something more meaningful than a prim cube or a group of them. The ability should be there to change it to icons like a house showing at quick glance that object is a house to rez, or a chair showing that is a furniture piece to rez.

There are probably reasons why things exist as they do however they should be fixed. For example, most people don't even know what calling cards were intended for and just adds inventory space. They should be either given a function such as they are in your viewer or hidden, unless you physically go to the inventory file menu and select show calling cards.

Materials is a huge let down from the original plan, as is experiences, EEP and many more.

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Calling Cards - how you make it "easier" for a user to find and IM (or pass Inventory to you) without adding you to the Friend's List. There's that explained for you.

Every piece of software I have ever used has shown all menu entries, even when not applicable. That is normal and does not need to be changed.

Right in this very thread it has been explained to you why many of the "improvements" you wish to see are either not an improvement or are simply more trouble than they are worth to implement.

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On 2/1/2021 at 12:33 AM, Solar Legion said:

Want a more graphical interface for your (existing) clothing inventory? There's a Wardrobe on the MP that does that. Use it.

IMVU can do the things it does inventory and clothing wise because it is a simpler set up than Second Life all of the "avatars" there are prebuilt "models".

Is it theoretically possible to do? Sure. It'll require the Viewer do the render work for each preview and add more network traffic between the servers and end user to facilitate downloading of the object data that will be needed for such a system.

I didn't find a graphical Wardrobe but assuming for the sake of argument there is one then it points out it is doable. That doesn't do any good for the newbie so S/L simply can add a similar one to the Viewer so noobs can benefit from it immediately. LL often seems to depend on third party solutions that should be their responsibility to put in for enhanced user retention.

As to your point about the increased network traffic, I'll point out that the viewers already have multiple GB sized caches that can be used for the features so no additional traffic required. 

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13 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Calling Cards - how you make it "easier" for a user to find and IM (or pass Inventory to you) without adding you to the Friend's List. There's that explained for you.

Every piece of software I have ever used has shown all menu entries, even when not applicable. That is normal and does not need to be changed.

Right in this very thread it has been explained to you why many of the "improvements" you wish to see are either not an improvement or are simply more trouble than they are worth to implement.

It's called contextual or conditional menus and they do make sense, just not in Second Life as Second Life has way too many options (too many of which can be active at any given time) and those that don't like Sit/Stand Up already had this behavior where they replaced each other (they don't anymore).

But i do wish we'd get V2's chat system back. Untabbed IMs was such a great thing especially since it didn't require having a stupidly huge window open to see missed IMs/Chats and was only ever on screen when necessary (when actively chatting)

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10 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I didn't find a graphical Wardrobe but assuming for the sake of argument there is one then it points out it is doable. That doesn't do any good for the newbie so S/L simply can add a similar one to the Viewer so noobs can benefit from it immediately. LL often seems to depend on third party solutions that should be their responsibility to put in for enhanced user retention.

As to your point about the increased network traffic, I'll point out that the viewers already have multiple GB sized caches that can be used for the features so no additional traffic required. 

Didn't take much to find.

No, they cannot "simply add a similar one to the Viewer" - it's been explained already.

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48 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Every piece of software I have ever used has shown all menu entries, even when not applicable. That is normal and does not need to be changed.

This is just plain not true. You're gonna have to be a lot more specific about what you mean by "all software" or "all menu entries." Show some examples. We can talk about anything from games to editors to websites to the computer operating system you're currently using.

All of them try to show you only what's relevant, some with more success than others.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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Do I need to be more specific? No. I'm a general user. I use a variety of programs ranging from Photo Editing (for touch ups, resizes and conversions) to general purpose music players.

Even the Operating System (Manjaro Linux) and Web browser I use (Brave) lists a variety of options in both the traditional window menus (File Et Al) and the right click Context menu. Oh yes and the File Manager (Thunar) has the exact same behavior.

So, how about examples of programs which selectively prune out context and Main Menu options which do not apply to the current operation/selection?

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3 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Calling Cards - how you make it "easier" for a user to find and IM (or pass Inventory to you) without adding you to the Friend's List. There's that explained for you.

I know exactly what they are used for and don't need you to explain them to me in some half arsed attempt to justify them needing to be seen all the time in the inventory to only complicate things for new users. Their current use is also not known by 90% of SL users. We had a very thread a few weeks ago started by someone asking about people removing them as friends and didn't know that calling cards could be given away as such. They are from a bygone era, nothing more unless usable like in Black Dragon Viewer.

You have also once again proven my point; that systems are scattered everywhere. Here, we have a system where I open up the people window to see my friends contact list, yet to open up an acquaintance contact list (which you have just explained calling cards to be) I have to go to my inventory, open a folder and see them there. Then the problem with calling cards becomes apparent in that it also shows my friends contacts and even people I deleted from my friends list or have been permanently banned never removing them unless a user physically goes to the calling cards and deletes them by themselves despite you deleting them from elsewhere.

If you have a contact it should list all in the people directory. Simple enough to edit the viewer to show an additional tab next to friends and have it as simply 'other contacts'. Surely adding an extra button on the request friend popup so it has two options 'Add as Friend' or 'Add as Contact' isn't hard.

Another example of the whole contact list problems, this time in firestorm viewer (I don't have default viewer installed so may be the same there). If you click on your avatar and then select friends (or groups) it brings up the contact list in the chat window showing your friends and not the people window. Now I am sure there is a reason for this (and I am sure you just can't wait to explain to me why 🙄), but why have the same thing in two different areas?

Additionally, just because having one way to open up the friends list isn't grand enough for second life UI coders, they were kind enough to give us plenty of options just because they are so nice as to accommodate for every single persons choice!

On firestorm for me (I don't have default viewer installed so may be the same there) you can get to the friends list by:

  • right clicking your avatar
  • pressing a button on your bottom bar (people window)
  •  accessing it from the comm drop down menu and clicking friends
  • pressing ctrl+shift+F.

But wait, just because of reasons if you go to the comm drop down menu:

  • select contacts instead of friends guess what? You got it, it opens up the friends list.

But wait there's more (just like there is always steak knives) we cant have the friends option have its own shortcut:

  • the contact option needs to as well as so you can also access friends list by ctrl+alt+shift+F.

Just to add a cherry on the top 'cause you know, cherries make everything more grand:

  • go to comm drop down and select groups or contact sets and whilst it goes to those tabs, guess where they are located. Yep that's right,  the same place friends list is and in fact if you try clicking comm -> contacts again it will bring you to the last tab you clicked - either friends, groups or contact sets.

But then because firestorm (and maybe default viewer) also have the people window popup separate to the friends list in the chat popup where all but one of the above links go, just for good measure:

  • Click on comm drop down menu and select people and there you have it the friends list all over again in the people window instead which also has tabs for groups and contact sets.

:EDIT: Wait how could I forget. There is another way of accessing friends list.

  • Go to inventory open calling cards and there the friends list is as well. (how silly of me forgetting this)

So lets count (again) 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10. TEN ways a user can get to the friends list in firestorm!!! That certainly is grand and oh such brilliant UI design and coding - as you say the viewer is just fine and doesn't need simplification 🙄.

I am sure however, you will come in and say but, but, but; trying to explain why everything is fine as it is, scattered everywhere, different options leading to the same place etc., or saying the viewer doesn't need to be updated to a simplified viewer where everything is in its right place and has at most 2 methods or clicks to get to or do.

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Every piece of software I have ever used has shown all menu entries, even when not applicable. That is normal and does not need to be changed.

Read above why it is needed in Second Life.

I would phrase your comment like this:

I have never in any software seen such a mess of a UI where you have identical systems duplicated elsewhere or having multiple of multiple, methods to direct you to that same place or irrelevant hidden or greyed out options.

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Right in this very thread it has been explained to you why many of the "improvements" you wish to see are either not an improvement or are simply more trouble than they are worth to implement.

Not going to bother. If you can't see by the above examples that the viewer is a mess, needs improvements which, includes adding features to improve the functionality and layout of the viewer and, that the trouble it takes to implement things to fix it is worth it then it would seem my assumption is correct that you are a fanboy.

Edited by Drayke Newall
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2 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Do I need to be more specific? No. I'm a general user. I use a variety of programs ranging from Photo Editing (for touch ups, resizes and conversions) to general purpose music players.

Even the Operating System (Manjaro Linux) and Web browser I use (Brave) lists a variety of options in both the traditional window menus (File Et Al) and the right click Context menu. Oh yes and the File Manager (Thunar) has the exact same behavior.

So, how about examples of programs which selectively prune out context and Main Menu options which do not apply to the current operation/selection?

I might be missing the mark here but one thing that comes to mind is not everyone should be tinkering around in Advanced or Develop menus in the viewer. That's why you have to intentionally activate them. 

Or maybe I'm just thinking "hidden" in this context means something different than what you're thinking.

 

Or.... maybe I should smoke another bowl.

Edited by Silent Mistwalker
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No sweety, I'm a realist who doesn't endorse or embrace Change for Change or Because Newbies or any other reason you wish to cite.

The Calling Cards are not the same as the Friends List and were never intended to be thus your "examples" are ... irrelevant.

The entire point of them is to be wholly separate from the Friends/Contacts lists and the associated permissions system for them.

Which you'd know and understand if - as you claim - you already knew the information presented in the Wiki entry or bothered to use them at all.

As to your perversion of my words regarding the menu entries - no. I said exactly what I meant to say and noting else. That is your take and bias there.

There is nothing whatsoever to see in your presentation. Nothing.

And of course you'd trot out the "fanboy" nonsense - that tells me all I need to know and solidifies my statement a line ago.

Utterly laughable ....

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1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I might be missing the mark here but one thing that comes to mind is not everyone should be tinkering around in Advanced or Develop menus in the viewer. That's why you have to intentionally activate them. 

Or maybe I'm just thinking "hidden" in this context means something different than what you're thinking.

In this case "hidden" can be - in some instances of their responses - traded out for "buried".

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1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

In this case "hidden" can be - in some instances of their responses - traded out for "buried".

Well, for newbs especially, those two menus are effectively buried if you don't know the hot keys to use. 

Personally, I like having the UI where I can see it and have the things I use most "at my fingertips". I'm also one of those nutcases that prefers the pie menu in FS. Make the UI "go away" and you might as well be in mouselook, imo, but then, I can't use mouselook so I might be a little bit biased.

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6 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Well, for newbs especially, those two menus are effectively buried if you don't know the hot keys to use. 

Personally, I like having the UI where I can see it and have the things I use most "at my fingertips". I'm also one of those nutcases that prefers the pie menu in FS. Make the UI "go away" and you might as well be in mouselook, imo, but then, I can't use mouselook so I might be a little bit biased.

In that context, they're properly "hidden" - simply not displayed.

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7 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

The Calling Cards are not the same as the Friends List and were never intended to be thus your "examples" are ... irrelevant.

The entire point of them is to be wholly separate from the Friends/Contacts lists and the associated permissions system for them.

Which you'd know and understand if - as you claim - you already knew the information presented in the Wiki entry or bothered to use them at all.

I never said they were the same, but it could be used as just that. All things that calling cards are and even in the wiki can easily be placed in the people window and removed from inventory. The whole objective of a calling card is that it is not a mutual transfer in that I can have your calling card but you may not necessarily have mine. Friends on the other hand is I have yours you have mine. It is exactly like a business card and in RP it is sometimes used as a business card.

There would be no difference in sending someone a dialogue acceptance option saying "Solar has given you their calling card" and that then gets transferred into the people window after acceptance and separate from the friends list and by not giving the opposing persons card to you. It is a digital item that is either physically represented as an object or as an entry.

Having it in a different location away from where people check for contacts is as you put it "Utterly laughable..."

7 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

As to your perversion of my words regarding the menu entries - no. I said exactly what I meant to say and noting else. That is your take and bias there.

There is nothing whatsoever to see in your presentation. Nothing.

And of course you'd trot out the "fanboy" nonsense - that tells me all I need to know and solidifies my statement a line ago.

Utterly laughable ....

Ok my mistake, based on your first paragraph in response to Silent being: "No sweety, I'm a realist who doesn't endorse or embrace Change for Change or Because Newbies or any other reason you wish to cite"

I'll just assume your a troll in a thread talking about how to improve SL marketing by competing with IMVU for simplicity and retention etc. If you are here just to argue against every single idea of improvement to the viewer because you don't want change and no reason will change your view, why bother being here at all.

Utterly laughable ....

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23 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I might be missing the mark here but one thing that comes to mind is not everyone should be tinkering around in Advanced or Develop menus in the viewer. That's why you have to intentionally activate them. 

Or maybe I'm just thinking "hidden" in this context means something different than what you're thinking.

 

Or.... maybe I should smoke another bowl.

We are talking about things where the context menu shows things that are not necessarily usable at the time and appear greyed out.

Example would be when you click on your own avatar and see 'derender+blacklist' despite it never in most circumstances being selectable.

Edited by Drayke Newall
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5 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

You may have missed my point about the user at account creation selecting what they are interested in doing in SL..........

Which is based on the assumption those new to SL have any preconceived notions what can be done in SL.

I had no idea what SL was when I started, I just got a short simple warning.

"You can lose items if you place them on the ground and forget where you put them or can't get back to them. SL has all sides of the human condition, the good and the bad."

 

5 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

The difference is the sims must be of good quality, populated with no lag and be engaging.

I'm not sure what virtual world you're using, but SL is technically incapable of hosting a lag free populated environment.

5 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Anything is botted in SL. Linden Realms, Money Trees, Fishing, Camping Chairs. All are botted but it should not impact on getting people into SL and retaining them. There are ways in limiting it as well.

botting L$ matters as that impacts the very economy that much of SL depends on

5 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

There are many ways to simplify and make a UI user friendly without removing functionality.

As someone who spends far too much of her life working on a third party viewer (Catznip), cleaning up UI and supporting our users, I look forward to your "Simple SL" TPV viewer :)

 

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Except said response was not to Silent - I simply refuse to quote some people and you're one of them.

You've already hit on the reason we have Calling Cards ion the first place and yet still insist they have no use ... They exist exclusively to be used as a method to bring up a user's Profile to facilitate communication and can be transferred as an asset to another user - this is often done though Note Cards.

It's not rocket science.

Am I against adding in a dedicated list of such? No. I am against replacing the existing feature/function.

There is a difference.

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1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Which is based on the assumption those new to SL have any preconceived notions what can be done in SL.

Point taken. Though something must be done to get the engagement of the user and one could argue that even trying to give objectives at the start is a preconceive notion.

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I'm not sure what virtual world you're using, but SL is technically incapable of hosting a lag free populated environment.

I have seen success in lag free areas. Depends on how it is made.

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

botting L$ matters as that impacts the very economy that much of SL depends on

I understand that, hence why I said it could be anything. Even used LL current token and vendor system on noob island and expand it so it has more options to buy.

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

As someone who spends far too much of her life working on a third party viewer (Catznip), cleaning up UI and supporting our users, I look forward to your "Simple SL" TPV viewer :)

Does Catznip have 10 ways to access the friends list with overlapping friends systems one located in chat and the other in the default peoples window?

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