Attention LL marketing - IMVU is after you

[simplemint]

On the topic of newbie islands: When I joined SL back in October, I was dropped at Firestorm's new user island to learn basic movement and camming controls (despite using the Second Life viewer at the time), not the Learning Island. 

That particular island does not offer any Linden rewards for going through the tutorial, though there are some freebie items available in the social island part of the tutorial.

In terms of marketing towards younger generations - like millennial or older GenZ, I think this is a worthwhile demographic for SL to target to grow their population into the futureand to generate more income too). I've been watching a lot of SL YouTube videos lately, and it seems that some of the most popular creators like Carmen King and Meela Vanderbuilt are all part of that younger demographic.

Meela does only SL videos as far as I can tell, but Carmen also features IMVU, the Sims, and Grand Theft Auto, and other games on her channel. On Carmen's videos in particular, I've seen a lot of users say in the comments that they were attracted to SL because of her videos, but couldn't/didn't really get into it because they found it too difficult to navigate as a newbie. Or, they thought it was too expensive for new players. At least with IMVU, you get free credits when you sign up. With the Sims, you have to purchase the base game and packs (which can get very expensive), but afterwards, you can download tons of custom clothing and other game mods for free. 

The SL page could use an update certainly, but I don't think that that's the only change required in SL's marketing for them to become more attractive to new players, especially younger ones. Easier to navigate UI, a better newbie onboarding process, taking advantage of YouTube and social media, giving players easy access to quality freebies/a small amount of free L$ they can use to play with before they decide if SL is for them, are all suggestions that I have - along with improving the SL website. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

11 hours ago, simplemint said:

On the topic of newbie islands: When I joined SL back in October, I was dropped at Firestorm's new user island to learn basic movement and camming controls (despite using the Second Life viewer at the time), not the Learning Island. 

That particular island does not offer any Linden rewards for going through the tutorial, though there are some freebie items available in the social island part of the tutorial.

In terms of marketing towards younger generations - like millennial or older GenZ, I think this is a worthwhile demographic for SL to target to grow their population into the futureand to generate more income too). I've been watching a lot of SL YouTube videos lately, and it seems that some of the most popular creators like Carmen King and Meela Vanderbuilt are all part of that younger demographic.

Meela does only SL videos as far as I can tell, but Carmen also features IMVU, the Sims, and Grand Theft Auto, and other games on her channel. On Carmen's videos in particular, I've seen a lot of users say in the comments that they were attracted to SL because of her videos, but couldn't/didn't really get into it because they found it too difficult to navigate as a newbie. Or, they thought it was too expensive for new players. At least with IMVU, you get free credits when you sign up. With the Sims, you have to purchase the base game and packs (which can get very expensive), but afterwards, you can download tons of custom clothing and other game mods for free. 

The SL page could use an update certainly, but I don't think that that's the only change required in SL's marketing for them to become more attractive to new players, especially younger ones. Easier to navigate UI, a better newbie onboarding process, taking advantage of YouTube and social media, giving players easy access to quality freebies/a small amount of free L$ they can use to play with before they decide if SL is for them, are all suggestions that I have - along with improving the SL website. 

 

@Whirly Fizzle may be able to shed some light on why FS's new user island doesn't have any Linden rewards other than the obvious being it isn't an LL island and doesn't have the authority to offer any Linden rewards.

Hopefully that doesn't come off as rude and/or condescending. It's not meant to be.

[simplemint]

23 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Whirly Fizzle may be able to shed some light on why FS's new user island doesn't have any Linden rewards other than the obvious being it isn't an LL island and doesn't have the authority to offer any Linden rewards.

Hopefully that doesn't come off as rude and/or condescending. It's not meant to be.

It doesn't come across that way, no worries! It makes sense that FS doesn't offer Linden rewards. Honestly, I don't think it's too big of a deal because the Linden rewards are only available to spend on the LL island and the FS island has a number of nice freebies available, but I would be curious to know why some newbies are dropped on FS's new user island and others on the LL island. 

Is it just a matter of 'spreading out the newbie load' among different places so the islands don't get overwhelmed? 

Edited February 1, 2021 by simplemint

[Whirly Fizzle]

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

@Whirly Fizzle may be able to shed some light on why FS's new user island doesn't have any Linden rewards other than the obvious being it isn't an LL island and doesn't have the authority to offer any Linden rewards.

Hopefully that doesn't come off as rude and/or condescending. It's not meant to be.

The L$ rewards you get on the LL learning islands are not real L$ & they are not added to your L$ balance.
You can only spend those L$ to buy a few bits of clothing from the learning island vendors.

[Mollymews]

53 minutes ago, simplemint said:

I would be curious to know why some newbies are dropped on FS's new user island and others on the LL island

i think Firestorm Island is a member of the Community Gateway programme. There are other resident-owned places that are also members

details of the community gateway programme is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Community_Gateway

Linden apportions some new account onboarding to the gateways

Edited February 1, 2021 by Mollymews
verbose

[Drayke Newall]

14 hours ago, simplemint said:

That particular island does not offer any Linden rewards for going through the tutorial, though there are some freebie items available in the social island part of the tutorial.

As Whirly stated they are not actual lindens. I mentioned in my post earlier that brought the free money at learning island into the thread that they are a token with their own separate icon on the viewer UI when you obtain them (look like a coin if I recall, been a while since I was there). They can not be used outside of the Linden learning Island.

As an older member you can (well used to, may have changed) go back there and do all of the tutorials at learning island and get the tokens as well and spend them at the vendors at the island.

Quote

The SL page could use an update certainly, but I don't think that that's the only change required in SL's marketing for them to become more attractive to new players, especially younger ones. Easier to navigate UI, a better newbie onboarding process, taking advantage of YouTube and social media, giving players easy access to quality freebies/a small amount of free L$ they can use to play with before they decide if SL is for them, are all suggestions that I have - along with improving the SL website. 

Unfortunately, all of these suggestions you have made have been made numerous times in these forums and discussions with LL or requested on Jira feature request section and all have never been acted upon.

I think it also comes down to the lack of freebie places these days as well. Back in hype years there were many freebie malls and islands etc offering similar quality items for free to users. Freebie warehouse being the biggest from memory. Whilst what they offered was basic it still was useable enough for a new user to look as good as everyone else.

Unfortunately, after the introduction of mesh, such places were never updated to offer mesh items to the extent of the past and so it is impossible for a new user to go to such places and look as good as everyone else. If memory serves correct, there were even landmarks provided at noobie island to such places or were offered by mentors. This has meant a new user needs to spend money straight away to enjoy a reasonable avatar on SL.

A solution to this would be for LL to create a mall adjoining learning island whereby it features group gifts from creators with a direct landmark to their store. Group gifts are of equal quality to mesh items and are free to join. Obviously this brings into question how they go about it without showing favouritism or whether creators would even allow it. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[NiranV Dean]

On 1/29/2021 at 2:37 AM, Drayke Newall said:

That has been the case for many aspects of SL. The best LL could come up with was a clunky avatar outfit save system that hardly anyone uses and costs money to actually use to its full extent.

The outfit save system is actually pretty decent, is pretty commonly used and does not cost money whatsoever unless you mean the optional outfit gallery system which allows you to add pictures to your outfits (rather than names), that one does obviously cost money because its the only way to permanently embed textures (local textures would be flushed constantly, basically purging your gallery pics, so they had to do it with the asset system)

[Drayke Newall]

26 minutes ago, NiranV Dean said:

The outfit save system is actually pretty decent, is pretty commonly used and does not cost money whatsoever unless you mean the optional outfit gallery system which allows you to add pictures to your outfits (rather than names), that one does obviously cost money because its the only way to permanently embed textures (local textures would be flushed constantly, basically purging your gallery pics, so they had to do it with the asset system)

Yeah, I meant the photo taking part. Would have thought they could for that specific function code it to take a free picture seeing as it is a 'feature' of the outfit system even if using the asset system. For example, even if it is charged initially the amount is then refunded, though that is outside of my knowledge.

I actually use the outfit save system entirely - have since it came out- and believe it is good. The clunkyness I was meaning is generally involved in things like if a product update is made you have to wear the new item, remove the old one from the outfit section, then resave. Would be nice if, the new item name matched the old item name, you could simply right click the inventory item and select 'replace similar in outfit'.

The another reason I mentioned it as "the best LL could come up with" was because it always seemed to me to be a half baked idea. They could have expanded it so much to the point where they had different icon tabs down the side. One would be for clothing outfit, another for accessories, shoes, hair, shape etc. Then you basically go through and add your favourite hair or accessories etc as well to each of those categories and simply click on them to replace those individual attachments without needing to go into the inventory or saving multiple outfits that look the same yet have different hair etc.

Not only would it allow for a graphical representation of what the hair, accessory, shoes etc looks like (rather than text based inventory) but would also make the outfit section separate without the need of touching the inventory much at all (other than when purchasing a new product and adding it).

:EDIT:

Even better would be flags for creators to select when creating things so if they create a hair item, they flag it as 'hair' and then when the person buys that hair it is automatically added to the 'hair category' of the outfit system with a nice picture taken by the creator. Such flags and auto uploading into they outfit system would also mean that if the creator does update the item, it auto replaces it within the outfit system as it could be entirely driven by the delivery system.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Solar Legion]

... If that is how it is set up in the Linden Lab provided Viewer then they really did drop the ball. In Firestorm - at the least - you can pop open your inventory, go to the Outfits, select the item, hit Replace Links, drag new item into the "New" section, hit the start button. Done - it goes through every outfit that uses the item being linked and replaces/updates it to point at the new item.

You may find this "clunky" - bless your heart if you do.

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

pop open your inventory, go to the Outfits, select the item, hit Replace Links, drag new item into the "New" section, hit the start button. Done - it goes through every outfit that uses the item being linked and replaces/updates it to point at the new item.

the Linden viewer does Replace Links this way as well. Am pretty sure it was in the Linden viewer first and subsequently surfaced in the TPVs

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

... If that is how it is set up in the Linden Lab provided Viewer then they really did drop the ball. In Firestorm - at the least - you can pop open your inventory, go to the Outfits, select the item, hit Replace Links, drag new item into the "New" section, hit the start button. Done - it goes through every outfit that uses the item being linked and replaces/updates it to point at the new item.

You may find this "clunky" - bless your heart if you do.

I know you can do that but it is still clunky whether you believe it is or not. For a new user or any other person user friendliness is key especially in relation to the OP where IMVU are advertising it as such compared to SL.

What's less clunky to replace an updated item identical to another in outfits (lets say a mesh body as an example)?

Method one, the new method which I stated:

1. go to inventory
2. right click on the new updated mesh body
3. select "replace all similar in outfits"

All outfit folders updated and if you are wearing the outfit that item is automatically updated on your avatar as well.

Optional extra:

1. pop-up menu "would you like to delete previously linked item or folder from inventory"
2. Select either delete item, delete folder or no.

or

Current LL method:

1. open inventory 
2. go to outfits folder 
3. select old mesh body item and/or right click that item
4. select replace links
5. go to the new mesh body item in your inventory
6. drag it onto the window
7. select start.

Optional extra:

1. find old item in inventory
2. select and/or right click old item or folder from inventory
3. select delete
4. go to trash in inventory
5. find item and delete again (or select purge on trash folder)

If you believe 7 steps is less clunky than 3 to replace an updated item, then all the power to you. I would have a guess though that most would prefer 3 steps over 7 any day and I am the same.

The LL method is good if you are replacing non alike items. For example if for some particularly odd reason you have 5 outfits that contain the same pants and want to replace them with a different pair of pants named differently and from a different creator. For a simple item update however the method is clunky.

Also I wasn't even mentioning about over multiple outfits in my post you responded to just a single outfit with a single updated item. The method I explained of wear, delete, resave, whilst clunky is still quicker and less complicated than the 'official' way you mentioned.

As mentioned in my edit, even better would be it all being automated which I would assume to be possible, however it will never happen. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Solar Legion]

Why yes, I see the current method as perfectly fine and not as "clunky" - because it isn't clunky. The number of steps is not an issue whatsoever.

The current flow makes it less likely that you'll accidentally "update" the wrong item, seeks a form of confirmation (having to actually identify the initial outfit item and its replacement) while requiring rather little in the way of reworking Viewer or Server code (which you'd have to do to allow for the function to work as you've described).

Single item or a mass replace makes no difference.

Oh yes, there's also the fact that no item is "Identical" as far as the asset system is concerned. That theoretical body update? To allow you to do as you've suggested the system would have to know it is an update to the existing asset - something that is theoretically only fully possible, under the current system, for non mesh assets (any changes to the weight or structure of the Mesh must be made externally and the result uploaded, creating a new asset in the system).

Cosmetic/texture/content/script changes are another beast entirely.

I'd rather have a system that takes a few steps and requires a bit of interaction than what you've described - it's safer.

[Drayke Newall]

3 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Why yes, I see the current method as perfectly fine and not as "clunky" - because it isn't clunky. The number of steps is not an issue whatsoever.

The current flow makes it less likely that you'll accidentally "update" the wrong item, seeks a form of confirmation (having to actually identify the initial outfit item and its replacement) while requiring rather little in the way of reworking Viewer or Server code (which you'd have to do to allow for the function to work as you've described).

To each their own. Your thinking is the same as Linden Lab on many things. It's to much work to update the server code so we wont do it even if it is more user friendly.

What are the results? A product that fails at retaining new members on a staggering rate and systems that are half released and then updated years later to something marginally better.

You mention that it would require reworking of viewer and server code. I know that. The difference is it proves my point that it was half baked in that, if it was made that way from the start (you know, when they were already editing the code for the outfit manager) it wouldn't be an issue.

The viewer is a mess as far as user friendliness, modern use/look goes. Not to mention is so bloated with wasted space. It needs an update so that people don't need to do 20 steps to do something that could take a click of the button. 

Look at what simplemint posted first on this page. He shows that comments from new users (not even young users) still are:

Quote

couldn't/didn't really get into it because they found it too difficult to navigate as a newbie.

Until those systems are simplified to the point where a new user can for example, replace/add hair or update an outfit in 2 clicks when a new version of that product is released without having to do 7 clicks, such comments will remain and be a bane to SL retention. I'll bet 50% of people don't even know you can replace items over multiple outfit folders using the method you describe.

So do your emoji laugh like usual and state we don't need new simplified features like outfit management that takes 2 clicks to organise. For me however, I would prefer to have SL grow with new users and all demographics so as to be more vibrant, even if that means editing code to simplify and update systems so they are modern and user friendly.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Coffee Pancake]

3 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

 

Until those systems are simplified to the point where a new user can for example, replace/add hair or update an outfit in 2 clicks when a new version of that product is released without having to do 7 clicks, such comments will remain and be a bane to SL retention. I

The bulk of SL loss retention happens in the first 3 minutes. Drop out reasons include :

I had to download a thing.

I had to open the thing.

The thing was ugly and I'd forgotten my account.

I logged in and it looked so slow and so bad.

Some weirdo did/didn't try talking to me (lose lose)

I couldn't move efficiently.

This is Janky as hell.

I got a sent a TP and was so lost.

My avatar was terrible.

Everything needed real money. (even if it didn't - preconceived negative bias)

ETC ETC

 

This drop out rate is high and unaffected by where people start in SL, alone or with a mentor, dropped face first into a random club, surrounded by people or entirely alone.

Basic first impressions made in the first few moments.

No one is playing dressup or fighting a dozen different ways to unpack a demo. The desire to struggle though that is a good indicator that someone is sufficiently invested.

 

Of those that do make it past the initial culture / technology shock, they have about 30 minutes to get invested enough to want to return.

 

There is no singular "easy win" for this period. Themes like "Exploration" or "Creation" are a total loss and should be avoided at all costs (as kindly demonstrated by Sansar who opened exclusively around those themes. Might have had better retention if the client had openly insulted the users mother.)

 

 

 

[holoscience]

Exactly ive shown three people secondlife and took them through all the steps and what to do, getting free heads bodies and items but only one sometimes comes on, you have to be interested in what sl has to offer, it took me three tries to really understand what it was all about. First time i joined i went to free dove and a random guy gave me troll items and d*ldos 🤢 and i got scared and didn't try again.

When I joined the second time i did some research and really wanted to be apart of it saved up my money and brought a bento head and body, then i found gachas and fell in love haha. only to drop off again because i rented a place but couldn't afford rent the next week so i knew when i logged back in my stuff would be gone so i avoided it (didn't know about lost and found). I came back a few months later because nothing is like secondlife i play the sims but i don't like playing god i wanna be that sim i guess haha. Anyway new players will stay if they are interested and willing to learn, I don't think lindens should be given out as it might cause more bots for linden farming.

[Drayke Newall]

 

Quote

There is no singular "easy win" for this period. Themes like "Exploration" or "Creation" are a total loss and should be avoided at all costs (as kindly demonstrated by Sansar who opened exclusively around those themes. Might have had better retention if the client had openly insulted the users mother.)

I agree that initial exploration needs to be improved and go beyond "look at this isn't it pretty" as it is now. That is a failure of LL methodology and nothing more. The number one reason people leave SL is due to having nothing to do or no goal at the start to drive them in further.

There are simple ways however of improving the user experience but it takes time and effort on LL behalf to do it and I have never seen them show any interest in doing as such.

They need to make noobie island like a game where clear objectives are given and prizes won. Ask from the get go what they like to do i.e. shop, fantasy, rp, explore etc and have them start at an appropriately themed starting island with a goal in place with the final goal to go out and explore.

For example if you enter that you want to explore SL, make it so that they land on a themed starting area, do the tutorial as a game, for example the tutorial is something like: start at a house collect items on the ground and add them to your inventory (like packing a suitcase), get ready, hire an 'LL uber' or drive to the airport, go through check in etc. Last quest would be you are given a passport with certain inworld destinations (or use the destination guide) whereby when you visit that place and spend x time there, your 'passport' is stamped and you get some Lindens. Force them to go out and about and enjoy the place, experience it.

At the moment all it is is welcome to Second Life, let me throw you into the deep end of the pool both viewer wise and find your own way. A game may seem corny to start them with, but at least it gives them something to do and enjoy whilst they learn what second life is and can be.

All of this however cant be done until the viewer is simplified and modernised as that also impacts their first impression. If the viewer is to complicated or different that they are used to (pie menu prime example) then that would impact on their retention. If they cannot do something quickly are work something out for themselves because it is a 7 step process that hasnt been explained elsewhere they wont know about it.

Take the login screen, there is way to much information on there from the start with drop down menu's etc that are irrelevant to a person just logging in. This is what the start screen should look like simple and clean with a movie playing in the background showcasing the world, if you want advanced options at the login screen make it togglable (Black Dragon Viewer does something similar to this well):

As you said first impressions are everything and the bland login screen now doesn't give a good first impression.

Menus, should be simple and clean and not taking up space when not in use. i.e. get rid of the File, world, etc drop down menus and replace it with something simple. In Black Desert Online's menu you press ESC and it slides from the left with everything you need and you click the menu items and the window pups up:

Also notice the person interaction menu, when they come close to you and you hover your cursor on them a circle with option icons appears where you can trade follow etc. No right clicking on a person to get a drop down menu that you need to click. All quick access items are done by pressing a function key and only can be pressed when that menu shows above someone. Think of the party invite one being add friend, more information being show profile, trade being message etc. Make it togglable for those that complain it is to in their face or set it to a key you press to show when needed.

I know many people will be like eww why would we want such things SL is fine how it is. If that was the case it would be booming still.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Solar Legion]

That's nice. Are you done trying to spin your suggested alterations to the existing system as a "good" thing?

This isn't IMVU. It isn't BDO. None of the internal or back end systems are set up in a manner to do as you've suggested.

What you're calling "simplified" and "modernized" is - in reality- dumbed down. Sorry, no wiggle room there - that's just how it is. Oooh, look at the pretty and shiny!

Find Outfit item, right click, Replace Link, drag new item into lower box, hit Start. That's what we have, it works, it should make you actively think to ensure you're replacing the right item ... And there is no mechanism in place for the sort of single item link replacement you're suggesting. A suggestion which would require an overhaul or rewrite of the entire asset system.

Same name? Irrelevant. Any object could be named identically to another and there will be users who'll take it on blind faith that their 'updated item' is actually the same item. What you have suggested requires the updated item to have the same UUID as the old one, with additional metadata to allow for revision identification (at a minimum).

You may be willing to see the system potentially harmed or broken in some way to make all of that happen, just to appease those who cannot be arsed to use the existing system.

I'm not.

[NiranV Dean]

1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

That's nice. Are you done trying to spin your suggested alterations to the existing system as a "good" thing?

This isn't IMVU. It isn't BDO. None of the internal or back end systems are set up in a manner to do as you've suggested.

Some of it are legitimate complains (that i do share) and are the reason i change things around. Some suggestions obviously would require a much more sophisticated approach and some things like the nearby-interaction action that pops up when looking at people wouldn't make sense as SL's experience would not gain anything from showing such a menu dynamically and worse it wouldn't work as good replacement since we should be able to interact with people at all times, regardless of distance.

SL's biggest problem is its necessary complexity and dumbing down is really not the way to go unless dumbing down in this case stands for logically simplifying things (such as the login screen and UI size changes mentioned). Sadly SL's greatest trait is missed/ignored by the community so much that SL constantly has to fight itself and its userbase to try and strike an arguably irrelevant and stupid "balance". It's like you want to play Dwarf Fortress or Space Station 13 (both extremely complex and intricate old games that require extensive research and knowledge to be operated even remotely decently) but don't want to invest the time in actually learning how they work, so you take shortcuts that in turn cut down both on the fun and content and ultimately make it something much less than it actually is. SL has the same issue with all its own mechanics and functions and most people are not willing to learn how they work and instead expect everything to work right out of the box, creating an unrealistic demand for "dumbed down" features and mechanics which ultimately hurts SL and those that want to delve into more complex things. See Materials, which was originally planned to be more.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

4 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

They need to make noobie island like a game where clear objectives are given and prizes won. Ask from the get go what they like to do i.e. shop, fantasy, rp, explore etc and have them start at an appropriately themed starting island with a goal in place with the final goal to go out and explore.

For example if you enter that you want to explore SL, make it so that they land on a themed starting area, do the tutorial as a game, for example the tutorial is something like: start at a house collect items on the ground and add them to your inventory (like packing a suitcase), get ready, hire an 'LL uber' or drive to the airport, go through check in etc. Last quest would be you are given a passport with certain inworld destinations (or use the destination guide) whereby when you visit that place and spend x time there, your 'passport' is stamped and you get some Lindens. Force them to go out and about and enjoy the place, experience it.

I agree with this in principle; gamifying anything is provably more engaging for the user.

But there is a concern of whether this could set them up with false expectations. Maybe that's still better than the current situation, I couldn't say.

4 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Menus, should be simple and clean and not taking up space when not in use. i.e. get rid of the File, world, etc drop down menus and replace it with something simple. In Black Desert Online's menu you press ESC and it slides from the left with everything you need and you click the menu items and the window pups up:

I don't think BDO is a good example of "clean menus" or "not overloading the user with information."

I've played BDO a few times since its release (and actively playing it today), but I dislike almost everything about the UI. I think it's messy (lots of stuff on your screen at once), confusing to navigate (menus all over the screen, duplicate buttons/information), and shows you information you don't need while hiding information you want.

I unironically think SL has a cleaner interface than BDO, even if it's still bad.

2 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

What you're calling "simplified" and "modernized" is - in reality- dumbed down. Sorry, no wiggle room there - that's just how it is. Oooh, look at the pretty and shiny!

Simplified, modernized, or dumbed down is good. If it doesn't need to be as complicated as it is, it shouldn't be.

As a small example, we have two buttons for wearing -- Wear and Add -- but the former has very little use these days. There's rarely a want to replace other things in the same attachment point, especially when you're wearing rigged mesh. There aren't enough attachment points to logically put everything you're wearing on its own unique slot without overlap, never mind that many creators just use the default "right hand" attachment. (And don't get me started on the hot garbage that is the "select attachment point" menu.)

The distinction between these features is almost entirely unnecessary and could be removed/combined into one action. There are a lot of people who don't even understand the distinction, or choose not to think about it and just always use Add.

 

Regarding the outfit folders images, they should be able to be tied to local files on the computer, not in-world assets. No one else is ever going to see your outfit folder images, because there simply isn't a way to do so.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Coffee Pancake]

4 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

 

I agree that initial exploration needs to be improved and go beyond "look at this isn't it pretty" as it is now. That is a failure of LL methodology and nothing more. The number one reason people leave SL is due to having nothing to do or no goal at the start to drive them in further.

 

Any good on ramp needs to provide purpose.

It's that simple.

GIVE THE PERSON SOMETHING TO DO.

Even if it's artificial and arbitrary.

 

4 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

They need to make noobie island like a game where clear objectives are given and prizes won. Ask from the get go what they like to do i.e. shop, fantasy, rp, explore etc and have them start at an appropriately themed starting island with a goal in place with the final goal to go out and explore.

Objectives, yes.

Prizes, no. Prizes and objects require there own interactions and may easily spawn questions the users is not capable of addressing at that point. If the skill isn't indicative of future activity don't teach it.

 

4 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

For example if you enter that you want to explore SL,

Crash and burn.

"Exploration" is not an end goal, it is not a viable on ramp, and is not a primary purpose. Exploration is something that happens because .........

If the new user experience tells/leads players to go explore  .. it's really just saying "this is all we bothered to make, kindly p*** *** and find your own fun"

Which yes, is very indictive of SL as a whole .. but that's not really the impression to give right from the start.

4 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Last quest would be you are given a passport with certain inworld destinations (or use the destination guide) whereby when you visit that place and spend x time there, your 'passport' is stamped and you get some Lindens. Force them to go out and about and enjoy the place, experience it.

Free Lindens will be botted to hell and back, no matter how complicated you make it, someone will make a bot for it and a lot of other people will grind though over and over and over. Don't make on ramp rewards dependent on forced interaction with regular actual users, regular users will resent it and the newbies even more than they already do.

See that idea I had about a secondary inworld only currency that worked like Linden in every way, except for extraction.

Here's 5000 gems, here are participating stores that as part of the new user experience initiative are accepting gems for starter promotional items.

(The idea was to create a secondary currency that had value to new players and experienced players (and not much inbetween) ... 5000gems buys you a hat ... 1000000 gems gets 5% off monthly teir payments over $300 US (stackable). Everything in the middle is up to players, LL issue them in small individual amounts to everyone like candy for doing basic "signs of life" activates and anyone who owns significant land get's to thirst over them and create ways to accumulate them)

4 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

All of this however cant be done until the viewer is simplified and modernised as that also impacts their first impression.

A basic viewer option was tried. it was very basic. it didn't help.

 

4 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

If the viewer is to complicated or different that they are used to (pie menu prime example)

There is no pie menu in the official viewer, that has been dead for years.

 

 

[Solar Legion]

Simplification for the sake of simplification or to cater to those who cannot be arsed to do more than click a button is not good.

 

As for Wear and Add? Of course there are still uses for Wear (which replaces the item) and Add and the "confusion" over the two terms is a perfect example of my point above. At most the terms should be Replace and Add or Wear/Replace and Add. That clothing (and other) creators cannot be arsed to make their default attachment points something other than Right Hand is a whole other kettle of fish.

[animats]

18 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

A solution to this would be for LL to create a mall adjoining learning island whereby it features group gifts from creators with a direct landmark to their store.

New Resident Island has something like that. There are walkthrough tutorials that get you Ruth or Roth, the open-source avatars, and tell you how to use them. Then there's a freebie area where you can get more clothing.

The trouble is, there's not much really good clothing for Ruth and Roth. And Roth isn't that well-proportioned an avatar; it's really a Ruth with a flattened chest. (Ankles and shoulders are female sized, regardless of slider settings.)

What's really needed are starter avatars that come with about a dozen outfits that Just Work, and stores where users can buy more. Preferably fitmesh. Fitmesh is harder for the creator and easier for the user; either it fits or it doesn't. If it doesn't fit, the body sliders will not help the user make it fit.

Mesh avatar with fitmesh clothing is SL's best clothing system, but it's not the dominant one. A fitmesh-only fashion event might be a way to kickstart this.

[Coffee Pancake]

35 minutes ago, animats said:

What's really needed are starter avatars that come with about a dozen outfits that Just Work,

What's really needed is a base avatar that people actually want to use.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:

Simplification for the sake of simplification or to cater to those who cannot be arsed to do more than click a button is not good.

That's going to be a fundamental disagreement then.

Everything I know about design (non-professionally) leads me to conclude that if a common feature is hidden behind several layers of menus, or placed somewhere that isn't immediately obvious, it's bad design.

That said, it's a balancing act. There isn't a perfect interface. You have to make decisions between screen real-estate, organization, and complexity. It's also pretty difficult for me to evaluate an interface I've used for a decade. Most things feel like they're "just fine" because they've become basically muscle memory, combined with prior knowledge.

Even the awful interface of BDO isn't "that bad" because I know where to find things, but because I haven't spent nearly as much time getting familiar with every part of it as I have with SL, it's a lot easier to put a finger on all of its issues. 

But I still feel like the SL interface could be improved in a lot of ways and some of the lesser-used functions should be placed somewhere else. For example, going back to the Wear/Replace idea, here's a little mock-up of how I might change the UI: (And just to clarify, I don't think this is the most egregious offender. It's just an easy example in the wider context.)

• "Add" is renamed to "Wear" - adding an attachment to your avatar is now the default behavior.
• There is an alternative option to "Replace" other attachments in the current slot, based on context.
• The right-click menu would become something like this:
  
• Only the Wear option is shown, but when you hover over that option and the wearable is not a system layer, a sub-menu pops out with the Replace option.

This de-clutters the main context menu while preserving both options in a meaningful way.

Speaking of context menu clutter, it bafflingly shows you options that cannot be used. It's a context menu, it should only show you choices relevant to what can be done based on whatever you clicked on. You already get different options based on the asset, why not remove things like "Copy Asset UUID" or "Edit" or those "Marketplace Listing" choices when clearly the viewer knows they're not usable?

Edited February 2, 2021 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Solar Legion]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the entire thing - I almost rolled my eyes hard enough to give me a concussion.