LINDEN REALMS AND DATA AND PAYMENT

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

I'm not able to find the quote now, but there was a linden on the forum that mentioned it's been devaluation because of people cheating and they would devaluate it until the cheating is not worth it for the cheaters, which in turn has the outcome of hurting the people playing the game legit.   I'm hunting for where I saw that again, just ran across it the other night.

@Wulfie Reanimatorquoted a linden meeting

On 3/13/2021 at 7:59 PM, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I think Patch gave a very clear answer at 58:05.

"If you're using any programmatic ways to get around the anti-cheat devices, or botting, or using any kind of software automation, we will not only terminate your accounts but also cut the games down. We won't shut the games down, but we will devalue them to the point where it doesn't make sense for the cheaters to game the system."

Playing the game on multiple alts doesn't seem to be against the rules -- it's not even hinted at. The important thing is that the avatar that is playing the game must be directly controlled by a human. A bot is an avatar that isn't controlled by a human, including "followers" that stay close to the avatar you are controlling.

Regarding scripts, SL doesn't have a mechanism to prevent people from wearing/running scripts on a particular sim. Even if the land has "scripts disabled," there are official ways of bypassing that feature. It doesn't seem worth it for LL to develop something to fix that.

 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

Thank you, I knew I had seen it and I figured it kinda needed to be here visiable so I was hunting. lol

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

Thank you, I knew I had seen it and I figured it kinda needed to be here visiable so I was hunting. lol

It's a shame things get abused and honest people lose out on earning a few Ls.  Years ago, Splash Aquatics had a fishing game.  There was no guarantee of winning the pot but it was a nice way to spend a couple hours and meet some people.  Then people started using bots.  The creator did do a work around to try and stop that but the damage had been done.  Everyone started accusing others of running bots, screaming matches ensued and I lost interest.  

I did buy the game for myself and had it set up when I had my homestead.  It's still a fun game and I'm sure there are places around still using it.

[XemmaN]

oh yeah ah how annoying! for all honest people without billing information. as well as for honest people with payment. all have suffered from the deception of some. But I have to say that the good news is that those informers and snitches and whiners who were thwarted by people without pay were also getting only half of their income haha!
It's a pity that people without information about the payment, who honestly completed just the quest and could accumulate their linden dollars for use in services and goods, lost it. ... Linden Lab is a very offensive move that deprives not only scammers, but also honest people, taking away their long-term earnings on quests. Of course, the old paid offended players on quests who want to receive only half of the profit have become less. but maybe new players will still want to get their lindens $ 25 a week.

Although it is doubtful if wealthy residents want to bother and run after crystals, if they are already able to pay for services with real money. But there are lovers of such adventures and gathering. who would like to continue. but they are offended now.

[RunawayBunny]

2 hours ago, XemmaN said:

Linden Lab is a very offensive move that deprives not only scammers, but also honest people, taking away their long-term earnings on quests.

Not really, It is not offensive but necessary. I am not expert game developer but I did work on a few game projects.

If your game have any exploit players will use this exploit (you can't blame them for using it, banning and preventing game access only solves problems temporarily), you have to update your game when exploit occurs avoid frustration and unfair advantage. I understand it is harming other players to but it will harm more if they don't take action in long run.

LL applied only suitable solution they can think of, if they can find better solution they can update their games again.

Edited March 26, 2021 by RunawayBunny

[Rowan Amore]

You can be in and enjoy pretty much all of SL with no payment info and no Lindens.  There is nothing in SL you must pay for in order to stay inworld.  Anything else is something you choose to have.

 

[XemmaN]

56 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Вы  можете  пользоваться практически всем SL без какой-либо информации об оплате и без Lindens. В SL нет ничего, за что вы должны были бы платить, чтобы остаться в мире. Все остальное - это то, что вы  выбираете  .

 

Yes. you're right. you don't have to bother, for example, without improving your avatar and walk in the basic avatar for all 17 years live in  sl. , being homeless, etc., and think everyone likes them ha ..
if you want to improve yourself, you will either have to pay with real money  and provide your confidential information for various Internet services, such as PayPal, SL (not everyone can do this, not everyone trusts) ..
    or look for earnings available in sl for free. This theme is about Linden Realms

[Rowan Amore]

30 minutes ago, XemmaN said:

Yes. you're right. you don't have to bother, for example, without improving your avatar and walk in the basic avatar for all 17 years live in  sl. , being homeless, etc., and think everyone likes them ha ..
if you want to improve yourself, you will either have to pay with real money  and provide your confidential information for various Internet services, such as PayPal, SL (not everyone can do this, not everyone trusts) ..
    or look for earnings available in sl for free. This theme is about Linden Realms

Yes, the theme is about the realms which people do use as their main source of income.  To pay for their rentals as mentioned earlier.  Being homeless in SL is hardly the same as being homeless in RL.  Sorry, but nothing bad will happen if you live on the streets of SL.  My first year in SL, I was without a home and still had a blast.  

My point being is there are people right here in the forums who have never purchased Lindens and have been around since almost the beginning.  SL is a luxury and always will be.  

[XemmaN]

13 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Yes, the theme is about the realms which people do use as their main source of income.  To pay for their rentals as mentioned earlier.  Being homeless in SL is hardly the same as being homeless in RL.  Sorry, but nothing bad will happen if you live on the streets of SL.  My first year in SL, I was without a home and still had a blast.  

My point being is there are people right here in the forums who have never purchased Lindens and have been around since almost the beginning.  SL is a luxury and always will be.  

here everyone chooses their own way of life, as in rl. ... I am one of those who prefers to make money, and then use and enjoy the fruits of my real work in RL or virtual here in SL. Business before pleasure

[Jaylinbridges]

On 3/26/2021 at 3:05 AM, RunawayBunny said:

If your game have any exploit players [they] will use this exploit (you can't blame them for using it, banning and preventing game access only solves problems temporarily), you have to update your game when exploit occurs avoid frustration and unfair advantage. I understand it is harming other players to but it will harm more if they don't take action in long run.  LL applied only suitable solution they can think of, if they can find better solution they can update their games again.

One of the accepted false beliefs throughout this thread (and others) is that exploiting the LR or Paleoquest  somehow harms other players.  And will harm more players if nothing is done.  I disagree with both of these assumptions.

The per cent of visible "cheaters", based on my regular visits to both games, I would estimate to be about 10% in LR and 20% in Paleoquest.  So 80% to 90% of the players were playing their solitary game honestly.  So lets penalize the large majority.  What kind of critical thinking is that?  And since everyone agrees it was not an economic decision, the payouts themselves can't be the issue.

Both games are single player solitary run and jump hunt games.  There is no score visible to anyone but yourself.  There is NO competition.  In reality, the cheaters whiz through the quests quickly, and leave.  They don't affect anyone else.  A few players who have nothing better to do than watch the cheaters, claim it makes them feel bad.  That is not harm.  I feel bad that the world is full of billionaires and homeless too (income disparity), but I am not harmed by that fact in any way.

Does Microsoft disable your Windows 10 registration because they think you cheat at MS Solitaire?  

LL chose the easiest way to discourage these "immoral, horrible, selfish, mass murderers and child rapists" (sic) they call the cheaters, by harming everyone equally.  That is not how any civilized RL country operates.  The guilty are supposed to be punished, but the innocent bystanders are not also punished.  That is the issue here - the action taken was more based on spite than reason.

Actually when LL finally put up the large signs listing all the actions prohibited in the games, just this week,  that was more effective than halving the payouts.  Now every cheater has to decide if saving a few minutes in their personal quest time is worth it.  LL should have done that first.  It cost them nothing.  Then if the visible Followers continued, offer a small $L reward for turning them in.  The games would be full of bounty hunters overnight, and the cheaters would be gone forever.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Rowan Amore]

37 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

One of the accepted false beliefs throughout this thread (and others) is that exploiting the LR or Paleoquest  somehow harms other players.  And will harm more players if nothing is done.  I disagree with both of these assumptions.

The per cent of visible "cheaters", based on my regular visits to both games, I would estimate to be about 10% in LR and 20% in Paleoquest.  So 80% to 90% of the players were playing their solitary game honestly.  So lets penalize the large majority.  What kind of critical thinking is that?  And since everyone agrees it was not an economic decision, the payouts themselves can't be the issue.

Both games are single player solitary run and jump hunt games.  There is no score visible to anyone but yourself.  There is NO competition.  In reality, the cheaters whiz through the quests quickly, and leave.  They don't affect anyone else.  A few players who have nothing better to do than watch the cheaters, claim it makes them feel bad.  That is not harm.  I feel bad that the world is full of billionaires and homeless too (income disparity), but I am not harmed by that fact in any way.

Does Microsoft disable your Windows 10 registration because they think you cheat at MS Solitaire?  

LL chose the easiest way to discourage these "immoral, horrible, selfish, mass murderers and child rapists" (sic) they call the cheaters, by harming everyone equally.  That is not how any civilized RL country operates.  The guilty are supposed to be punished, but the innocent bystanders are not also punished.  That is the issue here - the action taken was more based on spite than reason.

Actually when LL finally put up the large signs listing all the actions prohibited in the games, just this week,  that was more effective than halving the payouts.  Now every cheater has to decide if saving a few minutes in their personal quest time is worth it.  LL should have done that first.  It cost them nothing.  Then if the visible Followers continued, offer a small $L reward for turning them in.  The games would be full of bounty hunters overnight, and the cheaters would be gone forever.  

 

 

 

 

 

I can't count the number of threads started by these same players complaining about the cheating going on in the Realms and other games.  LL was probably reacting to the dozens if not hundreds of ARs sent by these same players.   Now they're complaining about LL trying to do something about it?   Can't have it both ways.

[Jaylinbridges]

34 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

can't count the number of threads started by these same players complaining about the cheating going on in the Realms and other games.  LL was probably reacting to the dozens if not hundreds of ARs sent by these same players.   Now they're complaining about LL trying to do something about it?   Can't have it both ways.

Absolutely no evidence of your assumption.  Why would the Realms self appointed cops also complain when the Lindens took some action?  Were they mad their vigilante game was ruined?  Nobody is having it both ways.  You use that expression a lot, and it often makes no sense.

We have no evidence of how LL determined there was cheating, but it was not as bad as they claimed.

A personal example here:  I was minding my own business in the desert quest, running to the treasure chest while trying not to get killed by a rock monster.  After finishing that quest, I saw a green crystal in the desert, so I collected it on my way out.  The collection game is about collecting crystals of any value, after you complete a quest.

So here is this non player sitting in the recovery tank in the desert, sending out nasty IM's to anyone that collected a green crystal.  She was claiming it was against the rules to collect more than one green crystal, because she could never find one. Mind you, she was not looking for them, but just camming the players.  Then she accused me of being part of a RL Brazilian drug cartel that was haressing her family, and said she knew where I lived.   Umm, other than being able to find Brazil on a world map, I have no connection to that country.  My ancestors immigrated to the United States in the 18th Century, from England.

She also said she was ARing me, and anyone else that broke her rules by collecting a green crystal.  She did this on three occasions over a three week period. Also claimed she knew some important Lindens that would ban me from the game.

I got tired of her threats and false claims and ignorance of the game, and ARed her w/ the offending IM's to LL.  If the Lindens believed this person, who was clearly mentally disturbed, they need to improve their Governance staff.

 

[Rowan Amore]

9 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Nobody is having it both ways.  You use that expression a lot, and it often makes no sense.

No, I actually don't.  People have been complaining about the Realms for years and now when LL does somethng about it, they complain again.

Linden Realms ... RUINED! - General Discussion Forum - Second Life Community

Linden Realms violations - General Discussion Forum - Second Life Community

Cheat scripts for Linden Realms - General Discussion Forum - Second Life Community

[Jaylinbridges]

37 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

No, I actually don't.  People have been complaining about the Realms for years and now when LL does somethng about it, they complain again.

I don't see any of the people in those ancient threads complaining about cheating, complaining about the payout cut now. None.  Stop repeating false assumptions!   And if you check, you will find about 4 who were complaining, not hundreds.

I read thru those old threads.  One was about cheaters in the pre 2018 LR game, back in 2012.  The new LR fixed most of those issues, so that thread is irrelevant.

Another was upset that the new LR in 2018 was too hard for her, and blamed the cheaters for her lack of skill.  I played the first days in the new LR and never blamed cheaters because I had to learn some new jumping skills. The game was in no way ruined as she hysterically claimed, but improved. 

The most recent thread claimed cheaters were beating him to a crystal.  Guess what?  That happens about once a year.  I never run into speed enhanced crystal collectors.  But if someone is closer to a high value crystal than I am, and we both run at legal speeds, they will arrive first.  It's called Newtonian motion. In fact, when they added the PIOF to the crystal collecting rules, 95% of the crystal collectors vanished.  That was over a year ago. 

Then the cheaters concentrated on the quests, because that was all they could do, and started using follower avatars.  While this gave them an advantage in earning $L for the quests, they had zero affect on normal players, and zero effect on crystal collectors.

Details, the truth is in the details.  Not opinions by the non players here, or dragging up old threads.

 

 

[Rowan Amore]

11 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

I don't see any of the people in those ancient threads complaining about cheating, complaining about the payout cut now. None.  Stop repeating false assumptions!   And if you check, you will find about 4 who were complaining, not hundreds.

I read thru those old threads.  One was about cheaters in the pre 2018 LR game, back in 2012.  The new LR fixed most of those issues, so that thread is irrelevant.

Another was upset that the new LR in 2018 was too hard for her, and blamed the cheaters for her lack of skill.  I played the first days in the new LR and never blamed cheaters because I had to learn some new jumping skills. The game was in no way ruined as she hysterically claimed, but improved. 

The most recent thread claimed cheaters were beating him to a crystal.  Guess what?  That happens about once a year.  I never run into speed enhanced crystal collectors.  But if someone is closer to a high value crystal than I am, and we both run at legal speeds, they will arrive first.  It's called Newtonian motion. In fact, when they added the PIOF to the crystal collecting rules, 95% of the crystal collectors vanished.  That was over a year ago. 

Then the cheaters concentrated on the quests, because that was all they could do, and started using follower avatars.  While this gave them an advantage in earning $L for the quests, they had zero affect on normal players, and zero effect on crystal collectors.

Details, the truth is in the details.  Not opinions by the non players here, or dragging up old threads.

 

 

Yes and they probably all filed ARs which is my point.   They ARed for whatever reason, LL does something rightly or wrongly.  Cause and effect.  Simple regardless of how old a thread is.

Now, you carry on as I've no interest in debating the obvious anymore.

[Jaylinbridges]

12 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Now, you carry on as I've no interest in debating the obvious anymore.

Thank You!  I need to start working on my SL businesses today - I am losing money when my stores are not fully stocked.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[RunawayBunny]

18 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

The per cent of visible "cheaters", based on my regular visits to both games, I would estimate to be about 10% in LR and 20% in Paleoquest.  So 80% to 90% of the players were playing their solitary game honestly.

Not sure where did you get those numbers. But estimate means nothing. LL probably have sufficient numbers and forced them to take action.

18 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Does Microsoft disable your Windows 10 registration because they think you cheat at MS Solitaire?  

Microsoft does not pay you for playing Solitaire. Why should they care if you are automating Solitaire?

18 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

LL chose the easiest way to discourage these "immoral, horrible, selfish, mass murderers and child rapists" (sic) they call the cheaters, by harming everyone equally. 

Calm down will you. You are complaining about random players and cheaters yet you don't like it when LL take action against it. Lower rewards (perhaps at future complete removal of L$ rewards) expected if they can't solve it by re-programming.

[XemmaN]

1 hour ago, RunawayBunny said:

Lower rewards (perhaps at future complete removal of L$ rewards) expected if they can't solve it by re-programming.

if from your (and your like-minded people) * wise * submission of haters of all games for a reward of L $, linden lab will cancel rewards L $ for all games in cl, (including those created by residents of sl,  games for traffic - like numerous fishing trips, flowers farms. and many others, the world will not be interesting for most users of the world. Someone there came up with some kind of Gem as a reward without real value lol . Why unnecessary garbage in the inventory? Second life is interesting because in addition to the wonderful world created by talented people, receive rewards  L $  for different types of activities, including games. deleting such an important part of the occupation, and ditch the business of all residents and creators of services, things and games.  second life will lose a lot a lot  of users

[RunawayBunny]

8 minutes ago, XemmaN said:

if from your (and your like-minded people) * wise * submission of haters of all games for a reward of L $, linden lab will cancel rewards L $ for all games in cl, (including those created by residents of sl,  games for traffic - like numerous fishing trips, flowers farms. and many others, the world will not be interesting for most users of the world.

I don't hate those games, opposite I like it (and play it when I have time). I am telling what will happen from programmer perspective. If you have better solution please do share.. perhaps send a ticket to LL ideas helps more than complaining.

My suggestion? Apply IP check for each avatar entering Portal Park and refuse multiple entries from same IP address. It is hard to do but suitable and better solution than payment info. It can be bypassed with proxy but playing SL with proxy not efficient and very slow experience.

Edited March 29, 2021 by RunawayBunny

[Gabriele Graves]

24 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

My suggestion? Apply IP check for each avatar entering Portal Park and refuse multiple entries from same IP address. It is hard to do but suitable and better solution than payment info. It can be bypassed with proxy but playing SL with proxy not efficient and very slow experience.

More and more of the world's internet users are going behind CGNAT due to IPV4 address exhaustion.  This is not by choice, it is often the only service that their ISP offers.  This is happening right now in some areas of the world where there are many thousands of people who to services like SL look like they are coming from the same IP address.  Blocking by IP address at some point will affect SL accounts who have no relationship with each other.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Gabriele Graves

[RunawayBunny]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

More and more of the world's internet users are going behind CGNAT due to IPV4 address exhaustion.  This is not by choice, it is often the only service that their ISP offers.  This is happening right now in some areas of the world where there are many thousands of people who to services like SL look like they are coming from the same IP address.

Ohh.. I didn't think about it.. it seems there is no suitable solution for now.

[Jaylinbridges]

11 hours ago, RunawayBunny said:

Not sure where did you get those numbers. But estimate means nothing. LL probably have sufficient numbers and forced them to take action.

As I already said here, my estimates are based on personal in-game observation of actual cheating over the last 2 years.  You watch a quest where cheating is possible, for hours, and record every time a player cheats, vs a player that plays the game according to the allowed rules.  You divide the # of cheaters by the total number of players, and convert it to a percentage.  It is an estimate only because the time I can sample is limited.  There is about twice as much of the quest cheating in PaleoQuest because of the Follower HUD, as there is in Linden Realms. 

Their is NO programmed or automated cheating, no bots.  A following HUD just lets multiple avatars reach the same quest point with only one avatar, as you know. Then each avatar completes the Quest as an individual.  Think of it as mass transportation to a destination    The assumption is these Followers all belong to the same person, running multiple viewers and/or computers to collect multiple quest awards.  They could also be family members, club members, or your partners too, with different locations and IP#s.  Is that also cheating?   

I once brought my partner into Paleoquest to show her what I was wasting my time on doing.  After she was killed once by a dinosaur in the swamp, she TPed out and said it was the most stupid game ever.  Had I stuck her on a Follower HUD with me to show that  it was a game of skill if you practiced and had some coordination, maybe she would have stuck with it on her own.  But I didn't because I would look like a cheater, and besides it's the one place I can go that she won't follow me. 😎

I have suggested they find a way to detect these HUDs long ago, to stop this kind of gaming. So you claiming I am against enforcement is just false.  LL could have limited private scripts in the Experience program, but chose not to when Experiences were introduced.  There would be no cheating without a script to override their rules.

I also suggested they actually post the prohibited actions in the games, where everyone would see them.  Before last week, they hid the rules in the back room on a changing texture blackboard, where no one ever goes.  And the rules were general and vague.  Don't wear a HUD. Don't take advantage of any exploits you find.  Huh?

The large threatening signs they have installed where you can't miss it has actually had a huge effect so far.  I have not seen any cheaters the past few days. 

It's like a speed trap.  The cops hide the speed limit sign behind a bush, so they can write tickets close to the donut shop.  Let folks know the speed limit so they can slow down, instead of trapping them.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Rowan Amore]

[Jaylinbridges]

Rowan Amore 

4,909 posts

Follow your own advice.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Nextio]

On 3/9/2021 at 2:58 PM, Jaylinbridges said:

Today PaleoQuest started a weekly payout of 50 $L for completing the 5 quests, down from 100 $L up to now.  Have not see any announcement from LL about cutting the payout in half yet.  Everything about Linden Realms and Paleoquest suggest LL is discouraging players, by making the time spent in the game not worth it.  A result of new ownership counting the pennies?

AND, Linden Realms reduced the payout for completing the 4 quests to only 25 $L per week, from 50 $L/week.  The higher payouts have been in effect since both games started.  Linden Labs must be in financial trouble if they felt they were losing too many lindens with the old payouts.

Or they just want to close down both games, since then they can sell the regions to paying customers.

 

 

 

I just got back into SL again and just noticed these changes. It was my only source of income in SL and now they halved it.  It used to be $150 per week if you did both weekly quests but now it's $75 linden a week.  I thought $150 was a good compromise, but $75 is paltry and you can't really buy anything anymore.

I can't find any explanation either.  This company is definitely not being transparent which is is disappointing.