Orwar Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 13 minutes ago, foneco Zuzu said: And no True Democracy can allow the existence of any movements that has as the ultimate goal to replace it by a dictatorship. So, your definition of a 'true' democracy is one wherein everyone thinks the same way you do, and the moment people don't, you want to revoke their right to voice their opinions. Sounds pretty fascist, actually. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foneco Zuzu Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 The book was written to warn Us all of the dangers of letting supremacists groups co exist and use democracy to push their goals forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foneco Zuzu Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Orwar said: So, your definition of a 'true' democracy is one wherein everyone thinks the same way you do, and the moment people don't, you want to revoke their right to voice their opinions. Sounds pretty fascist, actually. No my concept of Democracy is the one that exists just next to your Country. Portuguese constitution does not allow any movements that profess the goal to end Democracy if they have the power. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Cinos Field said: Their rights end where mine begin, as the saying goes. Fascism is always about taking away someone else's rights, and as such we can't really allow it. This kind of statement is exactly how wars are started and is scary that people actually believe in the suppression of a persons right to believe or express themselves in public what or how they want in this day and age. Learn from history, this kind of thing never ends well. Rome conquered the early western world bringing destruction to cultures and their political spheres they believed was criminal (for example slaughtered druids in Wales because they practiced and conducted (i.e. expressed publicly) politics different to them). The early roman Catholics slaughtered Muslims on the belief that their political and religious views were abhorrent in how they expressed publicly those beliefs. Britain created the largest empire because they took over countries on the belief that their politics and beliefs were different and needed to be 'civilised' because they expressed publicly something different. Germany started WW2 because they believed the Jews were politically aligned against them as well as opposed Bolsheviks/communists from Russia. Iraq decimated other Muslims with chemical warfare because they didn't believe Shiites had the right to believe what they wanted. ISIS decimated the Muslim world as well as caused terrorism because they think people don't have the right to believe something different from them and express it publicly (they even destroyed ancient religious sites due to this public expression). Indigenous tribes suffered persecution the same where they were not allowed to express their views, beliefs or political ideology in public. Any person, tribe, country, whoever or whatever has the right to their opinion, political ideology or religion without censorship or other people destroying their livelihood or requesting them to be kicked from a platform just because they believe in something different. If they do something criminal, sure prosecute them but you cannot discriminate against them just for believing or expressing publicly that belief something different to you. There are many political ideologies that are majority peaceful. Just because a few 'radicalise' doesn't mean all who believe that way are evil. :EDIT: To put a different and more current spin on it, minorities such as LGBT were persecuted due to the belief that them expressing themselves publicly was abhorrent and gay marriage was banned because certain people thought it was "taking away" something from there religious rights. Let me rephrase what you wrote with the above in mind and see whether it sounds like the mid 1900's: Homosexuality or same sex marriage is always about taking away someone else's Religious rights, and as such we can't really allow it. Edited January 12, 2021 by Drayke Newall 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foneco Zuzu Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Article 46 (Freedom of association) 1. Citizens shall possess the right to freely associate with one another without requiring any authorisation, on condition that such associations are not intended to promote violence and their purposes are not contrary to the criminal law. 2. Associations shall pursue their purposes freely and without interference from the public authorities and shall not be dissolved by the state or have their activities suspended, except in suchcases as the law may provide for and then only by judicial order. 3. No one shall be obliged to belong to an association, or be coerced to remain therein by any means. 4. Armed associations, military, militarised or paramilitary-type associations and organisations that are racist or display a fascist ideology shall not be permitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foneco Zuzu Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 The Article 46 is very clear, in the Portuguese Constitution. Sadly it seems same does not exist in Spain, where a few can keep adoring Franco and all that he represented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Psaltery Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 29 minutes ago, foneco Zuzu said: True Democracy When people start qualifying a word with the adjective 'True' I suspect the word is not being used with its proper meaning. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foneco Zuzu Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Garnet Psaltery said: When people start qualifying a word with the adjective 'True' I suspect the word is not being used with its proper meaning. True Democracy is when a Country has a Article 46. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Brown Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said: When people start qualifying a word with the adjective 'True' I suspect the word is not being used with its proper meaning. No, she's speaking in classic doublespeak where words are redefined to mean whatever is politically expedient at the moment. Edited January 12, 2021 by Talon Brown 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Psaltery Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Just now, foneco Zuzu said: True Democracy is when a Country has a Article 46. I live in the UK. We're out of the EU. Does that mean we are not a democracy? p.s. We had a democratic referendum for the exit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Psaltery Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said: When people start qualifying a word with the adjective 'True' I suspect the word is not being used with its proper meaning. 1 minute ago, Talon Brown said: No, she's speaking in classic doublespeak where words are redefined to mean whatever is politically expedient at the moment. I'm aware of what is happening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foneco Zuzu Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 No im not. Americans should be grateful, for they never knew what a dictatorship is and what happens when someone is under one. PORTUGAL was under one for 48 Years. We made sure none will be able to rise again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Brown Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, foneco Zuzu said: True Democracy is when a Country has a Article 46. "True democracy" is when every citizen has an equal voice and a right to express it whether you, or anyone else, likes it or not. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foneco Zuzu Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Garnet Psaltery said: I'm aware of what is happening. And you should be grateful cause your Country was one of the real few that does not know the meaning of living under one for centuries. That is the only matter i do feel English has the right to feel superior to the rest of Europe. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Carling Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said: n my opinion the violation is done by you. Limiting others to express themself in public is a stage already after the start of oppression. Scary. Actually you are right. I was happy to learn on youtube that the earth is flat. I was always believing she is round, stupid me. I also learned that I have to wear an alu hat to protect myself vs xrays which companies owned by Bill Gates use to dominate the world. And just now I was told Donald Trump is deep in his heart a guy who is loving his neighbour than himself. Provided the neighbour is a golf fan. Hail, freedom of speech. What do you think made it possible that HItler came to power? He was supported by a news and press imperium similiar Fox News. Edited January 12, 2021 by Doc Carling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foneco Zuzu Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Talon Brown said: "True democracy" is when every citizen has an equal voice and a right to express it whether you, or anyone else, likes it or not. I will just ignore the posts of those that lucky never lived under the rule of a dictator. It is behind your compression. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Brown Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Just now, foneco Zuzu said: I will just ignore the posts of those that lucky never lived under the rule of a dictator. It is behind your compression. Of course you will, after all you are a proponent of "true democracy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Psaltery Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said: I'm aware of what is happening. 2 minutes ago, foneco Zuzu said: And you should be grateful cause your Country was one of the real few that does not know the meaning of living under one for centuries. That is the only matter i do feel English has the right to feel superior to the rest of Europe. I'd be grateful if you would reply to a post directed at you (in this instance the one before the one to which my comment above was made). As for a dictatorship, well, it could be argued that we had the equivalent experience under absolute monarchies, and there are those of us who recognise the continued existence of the Norman yoke. But I digress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinos Field Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, foneco Zuzu said: I will just ignore the posts of those that lucky never lived under the rule of a dictator. It is behind your compression. Luckily for us, most of Europe still remembers what it was like the last time fascists were allowed to gain power, having either suffered from it or lived directly under their rule. Most of our laws reflect that. For America, it's an entirely new experience, so they as a country lack the same kind of cultural immune response. Yet, luckily again, it seems cooler heads will prevail even then, given how it's shaping up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Brown Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, Cinos Field said: Luckily for us, most of Europe still remembers what it was like the last time fascists were allowed to gain power, having either suffered from it or lived directly under their rule. Most of our laws reflect that. For America, it's an entirely new experience, so they as a country lack the same kind of cultural immune response. Yet, luckily again, it seems cooler heads will prevail even then, given how it's shaping up. If "everyone I deem a fascist must be silenced by the state and driven underground by the social media mob" is your idea of cooler heads prevailing well then, there's not much else to say really. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syo Emerald Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Some people in this thread would be fine with Hitler tweeting about a "solution for the Jews", because its "just his opinion". 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foneco Zuzu Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Talon Brown said: If "everyone I deem a fascist must be silenced by the state and driven underground by the social media mob" is your idea of cooler heads prevailing well then, there's not much else to say really. You cant defend a Dictatorship as a way of governing and expect the ones that know what that means to stay silent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Brown Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, foneco Zuzu said: You cant defend a Dictatorship as a way of governing and expect the ones that know what that means to stay silent! I can't? You seem to be inadvertently doing quite a good job of it. Edited January 12, 2021 by Talon Brown 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivienne Schell Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 7 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said: People seem to forget that everything you declare illegal and forbidden, goes underground, where it is a lot more dangerous. This will become a real danger for the States. I'm affraid new IRA/ETA/RAF type of organisations will be born when this witchhunt goes on. Connect and "together" were the messages by the elects... i don't see it yet. Well, so you consider the mob which stormed the capitol, which was ideologically and practically incited, prepared and executed in open by Donald Trump and his enablers NOT being dangerous? Your theory is proven wrong. It only is popular among right wing conservatives who still consider fascists to be their "dirty little mislead family members". 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Brown Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Vivienne Schell said: Well, so you consider the mob which stormed the capitol, which was ideologically and practically incited, prepared and executed in open by Donald Trump and his enablers NOT being dangerous? Your theory is proven wrong. It only is popular among right wing conservatives who still consider fascists to be their "dirty little mislead family members". As opposed to the other mob that tried to storm the White House a few months back? Those were just peaceful protesters though, right? 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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