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3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is becoming an increasingly surreal conversation.

This shouldn't be -- isn't -- a conversation about "right versus left."

At issue is whether it is legitimate to employ, or condone (tacitly or otherwise) a violent attempt to subvert democracy in the United States. The conservatives I know are as horrified by what happened on the 6th as I am -- because they believe in the principles of democracy. And a great many Republicans and Republican lawmakers, whatever you might think of their previous support for the soon-to-be-ex-president, are also horrified by what happened on the 6th, and by their party leader's role in it.

The "What-Aboutism" and attempt to frame this as a left vs. right issue is a deliberate distraction, and a symptom of what is so wrong with politics these days.

Seriously, wtf is wrong with some of you people? Why in god's name are you even arguing this?

Hey, I'm on the left. If Antifa stormed the Capitol building in a violent attempt to kill or intimidate the duly elected representatives of the people into overturning an election through force, regardless of how questionable the results of that election may have been, you're damned right I'd be condemning them, leftists or not.

This should be the shortest thread ever. Do you agree with the violent overthrowing of the democratically elected government of the US, or not? All in favour of setting an armed and dangerous mob on elected lawmakers, hands up! Let's see you!

Frickin' bizarre.

 

The thread is actually about what LL is or would do about hate groups organizing inworld to which I gave an early response.

On 1/11/2021 at 11:00 PM, RowanMinx said:

What exactly do you expect them to do?  As with most things that are against the ToS, they will act appropriately when and if it is brought to their attention.  They have given us, the residents, the power in the form of abuse reports.  If you see something, say something.  

However, there are much better platforms for those groups to disseminate their hate that would reach a wider audience than SL.

How it morphed into left vs. right is beyond me but totally expected.  

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^^^This^^^ is what scares me.  The belief that people are no longer allowed to have their own opinions, their own thoughts and have to fall in line with one narrative, one ideology.   Newsflash,

When did have a political opinion become "hate speech"?

What exactly do you expect them to do?  As with most things that are against the ToS, they will act appropriately when and if it is brought to their attention.  They have given us, the residents, the

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5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is becoming an increasingly surreal conversation.

This shouldn't be -- isn't -- a conversation about "right versus left."

At issue is whether it is legitimate to employ, or condone (tacitly or otherwise) a violent attempt to subvert democracy in the United States. The conservatives I know are as horrified by what happened on the 6th as I am -- because they believe in the principles of democracy. And a great many Republicans and Republican lawmakers, whatever you might think of their previous support for the soon-to-be-ex-president, are also horrified by what happened on the 6th, and by their party leader's role in it.

The "What-Aboutism" and attempt to frame this as a left vs. right issue is a deliberate distraction, and a symptom of what is so wrong with politics these days.

Seriously, wtf is wrong with some of you people? Why in god's name are you even arguing this?

Hey, I'm on the left. If Antifa stormed the Capitol building in a violent attempt to kill or intimidate the duly elected representatives of the people into overturning an election through force, regardless of how questionable the results of that election may have been, you're damned right I'd be condemning them, leftists or not.

This should be the shortest thread ever. Do you agree with the violent overthrowing of the democratically elected government of the US, or not? All in favour of setting an armed and dangerous mob on elected lawmakers, hands up! Let's see you!

Frickin' bizarre.

 

It's what happens when you try to engage dogmatic people in a discussion.

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1 minute ago, RowanMinx said:

The thread is actually about what LL is or would do about hate groups organizing inworld to which I gave an early response.

Yes. So did I. I think you said much the same thing: if someone is advocating hate and violence, they get ARed, and probably banned. If they are not, they don't.

Seems fairly straight forward, no?

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Yikes, This thread's just getting worse and  kinda proving op's point by proxy that really is more to be done  moderation  wise to combat the kinda brainrot that alt righters have.

 

Some of you, even the non Americans. (Hint it's  not just America that has a fascism problems right now.) Need to really look at your  posting,  what you're saying in  context of all that is going  on and then ask yourself:

A1ZueF.gif&f=1&nofb=1

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

No, they did that to themselves. 

Listen, lets be clear. We're talking about adults, who decided to go from peaceful protest to insurrection when they crossed those barriers and broke into the building....without masks, carrying confederate battle flags, some of them armed. The same crowd that planned and organized the attempt online on social media where all their conversations were recorded. We're also talking about Trump who said "Kill" something like 43 times in his speech just hours before.

There is no defending this.

Let's be clear. I just checked 2 different transcripts of Trumps speech that day and the word killing and killed was there 3 times:

Quote

 

I fought like hell for them, one in particular, I fought. They all said, sir, cut him loose, he's killing the senators, you know, very loyal senators. They're very loyal people. Sir, cut him loose. He's killing us, Sir. Cut him loose, Sir. I must have gotten half of the senators.

President Obama beat Biden in every state other than the swing states where Biden killed them,

 

https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/read-the-full-transcript-president-trumps-speech-ahead-of-the-capitol-riot/

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trumps-jan-6-full-speech-we-will-never-concede-when-theft-is-involved

None of those are in a context of staging a coup. Did you even read the transcript of his speech? Doesn't look like it and I guess neither did those who upvoted your post. 

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is becoming an increasingly surreal conversation.

This shouldn't be -- isn't -- a conversation about "right versus left."

Right, it´s about democratic republic vs. fascism. it would be democratic republic vs. communism if the flags were red. But this here is a pretty obvious situation. Trump is not conservative, nor are his supporters. They are dangerous fascist radicals. Even those who think that they are conservative are. And those, who try to apologise alt right radicalism because they think that all of this is "conservative". And most of all these, who still think that they can control and use the fascist disease for their own political benefit.

Not being aware of something does not prevent anyone from being guilty.

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8 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

*What you interpret as Nazi propaganda, in order to justify violence.

BTW - This is part of the reason I stopped supporting left leaning causes some years ago, this sort of witch hunt that goes on.

Gimme something NEW! Please. I don´t want another summary of Breitbart.

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2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Let's be clear. I just checked 2 different transcripts of Trumps speech that day and the word killing and killed was there 3 times:

https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/read-the-full-transcript-president-trumps-speech-ahead-of-the-capitol-riot/

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trumps-jan-6-full-speech-we-will-never-concede-when-theft-is-involved

None of those are in a context of staging a coup. Did you even read the transcript of his speech? Doesn't look like it and I guess neither did those who upvoted your post. 

You really should follow the rest of the discussion before you post. Saying "Kill" two times in that kind of situation is two times too many. I said that was a mistake and I said he said "Fight" something like 43 times instead.  Next I'm going to have to explain hyperbole...even though I'm probably not that far off.

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2 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Trump is not conservative, nor are his supporters. They are dangerous fascist radicals.

 

3 minutes ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Even those who think that they are conservative are

This to me reads like incitement. Everyone who is slightly right of left is an alt right extremist. It reads like a witch hunt. It doesn't read like someone who is being intellectually honest, or wants an honest conversation it reads to me like someone who is trying to rile people up to have a fight.

It would be like if I was to say everyone who leans left is a Communist even those who describe themselves as just somewhat liberal.

How about some sensible talk rather than just hate rhetoric?

 

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2 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

You really should follow the rest of the discussion before you post. Saying "Kill" two times in that kind of situation is two times too many. I said that was a mistake and I said he said "Fight" something like 43 times instead.  Next I'm going to have to explain hyperbole...even though I'm probably not that far off.

Had you edited your original post I would have received notification of the change. 

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3 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

It would be like if I was to say everyone who leans left is a Communist even those who describe themselves as just somewhat liberal.

 

That´s exactly what you do, while cladding it in some harmless, "neutral" looking rethorics.  Unfortunately for you the time for claiming "neutrality" is over. Shame, eh?

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22 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

BTW - This is part of the reason I stopped supporting left leaning causes some years ago, this sort of witch hunt that goes on. Most people I know on the right accept that they have flaws and are prepared to condemn acts of bad faith or violence from their own, but I have seldom experienced that on the left.

Where on the spectrum do those who just nod and smile at what you say fall?

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This thread is so disheartening to me because there is little recognition of the hatred directed toward People Of Color in this country. What we are seeing at its root is a continuation of the Civil War where white supremacists, now aided by neo-Nazi's and evangelicals, are attempting to create their distorted rendition of how the US should be ordered.

How some people cannot understand the undercurrents, festering for years, which would incite this present debacle at the Capitol is beyond me, preferring instead to be overly-literal and focus on Trump's public speeches as proof he did not incite anything at all. But he began a race war over 10 years ago when he stirred up racial divisions in the US by doubting Obama was born in the US -- he knew what he asserted was not true, and his motive clearly was to capitalize on the racial hatred barely buried beneath the surface and create divisions so he could amass the haters on his side.

He has repeatedly stirred the pot and legitimized both white supremacists and neo-Nazi's on numerous occasions, and pandered to the hateful type of Evangelical that will accept nothing but their interpretation of the Bible, calling out directly to these groups. "Very fine people on both sides" he said after the Charlottesville murder by neo-Nazis.

Really, why would any of you defend this asshat and what he stands for, or any people associated with him? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assert that in many cases I don't think you have a clue as to what's been going on in America.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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2 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

This isn't a game of 20 questions. I made a general statement about people trying to defend a coup. If it's not you, why get defensive about it?

I made my statement in response to your general judgement, which was yet one more general judgement in this topic.  I realise you were focussed on the 'coup'; if I am defensive it is not only to clarify my position but point out that you have no special insight into the politics of those non-Americans posting here.

Ah yes, I should add that my remark about your 'second question' arose because you had said "let me ask you a question".  I decided to make a joke about it.

Edited by Garnet Psaltery
Two words typed out of order.
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56 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

/me follows you out.

Ya know, if you're so blinkered by ideology that even Republicans and/or Trump appointees who have condemned the President -- like Mitt Romney, Colin Powell, Liz Cheney, John Kelly, Bill Barr, Betsy DeVos (!!) and John Bolton (!!!!!!!!) -- seem too "lefty" for you, then you're probably not really susceptible to rational discussion anyway. And hence, not really worth my time.

ETA: @RowanMinx -- Sorry, I might have been clearer. I was agreeing with your decision to exit, not suggesting that you are part of the problem!

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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20 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

. But he began a race war over 10 years ago when he stirred up racial divisions in the US by doubting Obama was born in the US --

Point of order here - It was the Hillary campaign in 2008 that raised the issue that Obama was not a legitimate US citizen..

And to set the record straight Trump NEVER called Neo Nazis 'very fine people'

His actual statement was"

“Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group.  But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.  You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did.  You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.” 

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39 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

What we are seeing at its root is a continuation of the Civil War ...

5ff62d366d61c10019cce07e.jpg.cd99a5206b58a1d90f2aa85956197c3d.jpg

Oh, about the "war" part, in case there could be anybody naive enough to still think this was merely a riot:

 

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21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

How some people cannot understand the undercurrents, festering for years, which would incite this present debacle at the Capitol is beyond me, preferring instead to be overly-literal and focus on Trump's public speeches as proof he did not incite anything at all. But he began a race war over 10 years ago when he stirred up racial divisions in the US by doubting Obama was born in the US -- he knew what he asserted was not true, and his motive clearly was to capitalize on the racial hatred barely buried beneath the surface and create divisions so he could amass the haters on his side.

Actually I sympathize with this more than you know. I do not think that Trump should have said that. When Trump entered office I did not celebrate at the time, I didn't like him. I was convinced he was a bad person and it was a sad event for me.

Trump grew on me over time for a number of reasons. First there was so much hate directed towards him, without anything good written that I started to think that I am not getting the full story, the demonic creature they make him out to be is unrealistic for a human being to the point of ridicule.

Around the same time, my country was on a witch hunt, calling anyone who voted Brexit a racist, bigot etc. I had actually voted to remain in the EU. I was a labour supporter, a lefty. My countries flag was being portrayed as a hate symbol. Something clicked in my head, and I realized that people were projecting so much hatred onto my country and characterizing it in such a hateful way that my country could never hope to be a good place as people had just decided its fate was bad and gave it no chance.

Around that time I decided to let go of the EU and believe in my own country instead, not because I felt good about leaving the EU, but because I wanted to believe in my country and the people in it and give it a chance to succeed in the direction it was going.

I felt more and more betrayed by the people I used to support who were so eager to throw my country under the bus as the worst place on earth and disenfranchised by them. Trump was advocating for his country and his people and describing them as good people, whilst the left could only say bad things about their own people. That is why I started to like him.

Over the years I've watched him do things that I think are good things, ending conflicts, bringing troops home, putting his own people first, protecting the borders so that people can continue to have job security and support their families. When the WHO was telling Trump to accept flights in from China, Trump still stopped the flights and put his people first. His opponents describe him and his supporters as white supremacists but I've watched those rally's and people of all backgrounds support Trump, I just don't think it's true.

Paint me as a Nazi if you really like, but I don't think Trump is 1/10th as evil as people make him out to be. He has his flaws, I don't like when he puts people down to raise himself up, I think he can be distasteful at times. But ultimately I think he has done more good than harm even if nobody will acknowledge it.

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19 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

“Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group.  But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.  You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did.  You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.” 

Who else but neo-nazis and white supremacists/nationalists would protest the taking down and renaming? Umm..if i were one of these fascists that would sound to me sound to me like "You´re all very fine people but you should be condemned cause one of my silly advisors told me to condemn you for appeasing the conservatives"

And that was exactly how that was meant. Bannon pure.

 

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And so this here is Trump' s true profit : everyone is arguing about electoral theft, while he gets away with millions he collected while registering as bankrupt.

Americans should not stop the proposed imaginary steal, but the thief robbing them blind while crying wolf ( no offense to wolves ).

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