Extrude Ragu Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 Uplift as I understand it is SecondLife's effort to move its servers onto Amazon Web Services (AWS) in the cloud. It was intended to reduce operating costs. We're watching right now as technology companies start using their influence to control and censor speech and stifle competition. Yesterday, I found out that Parler, an alternative to Twitter turns out to be using AWS, and AWS has decided on a weeks notice it's going to take Parler down. I find this to be concerning, do we really want the fate of SecondLife to be in the control of anyone else but ourselves? Can SecondLife survive the political climate of 2021 if it is dependent on highly politicized hosting services? I am not so sure it can. 2 1 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted McGregor Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 That would only be the case if SL turns into an obnoxious extreme right presentation like Parler does, which seems, thankfully, very unlike to me. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted January 10, 2021 Author Share Posted January 10, 2021 Yes but the thing is Parler only came to be as a result of people being unable to communicate on Twitter. What I think is happening right now is that with so many people and services being 'deplatformed' is that people from different belief systems are becoming more and more distant from each other and out of touch to the point that they cannot talk to each other without fighting, neither side talks to each other so inevitably the opinions get more and more out of touch. Whilst SecondLife is safe now, will it be in 4 months? 2 months? as this continues to escalate I feel that tech companies will start engaging in a game of whack a mole and I do not think that they will consider the nuances of SecondLife's community that it has a broad range of opinions and beliefs, they will just consider that it contains some it doesn't like and then we'll be gone. That is my fear. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, TDD123 said: That would only be the case if SL turns into an obnoxious extreme right presentation like Parler does, which seems, thankfully, very unlike to me. You mean extreme right wing SL where Nazi symbolism and role playing can exist and that role play is given as a guise to mask what they truly believe (not that I am saying this is the case)? Meetings can be conducted within its virtual world spouting the same stuff a site like Parler spouts? Where hate speech (which i believe isn't illegal in America) can be spoken privately amongst a like minded assembly of people whereby unless someone is in attendance files a AR will get away with it due to lab not being able to track text? The virtual world where you can build an exact replica of Capital Hill and plan another 'protest' in extreme detail? Where you can covertly assume an anonymous identity to plan crime an event? Sure seems very unlikely... If someone posted my simple response to you on that Parler site, I am sure LL wont have a problem with concurrency anymore. I agree with Extrude. Whatever the argument for or against Parler being banned, a dangerous precedent like none before has been set. A hosting service (which AWS is) can ban another service on their servers due to an action by which protections that twitter and facebook (of which Parler is a similar if not identical service) have which removes from the platforms the responsibility of its users is given as the reason for the ban. This is the thing to worry about - the Precedent. Now that LL are going into the foray of a mobile client, I am wondering if Apple was a good move considering their very strict ToS. Now I realise why it is only a text viewer and not a full viewer. Edited January 10, 2021 by Drayke Newall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said: a dangerous precedent like none before has been set. Yeah, but not the one you mean. Tell ya what: hosted on AWS or not, when SL becomes the next unmoderated platform for planning the a murderous coup against American democracy, PULL THE EFFING PLUG NOW. Let's not kid ourselves, there was just that one chance to attack a joint session of congress, and for months POTUS had explicitly recruited armed insurrectionists to attack on that very day, then at the scene rallied them to their crimes with repeated calls to "FIGHT!" It was an intended slaughter which only failed because the best Trump could muster was a ragtag assortment of monster truck rally cosplayers. 5 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted January 10, 2021 Author Share Posted January 10, 2021 2 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: Yeah, but not the one you mean. Tell ya what: hosted on AWS or not, when SL becomes the next unmoderated platform for planning the a murderous coup against American democracy, PULL THE EFFING PLUG NOW. Let's not kid ourselves, there was just that one chance to attack a joint session of congress, and for months POTUS had explicitly recruited armed insurrectionists to attack on that very day, then at the scene rallied them to their crimes with repeated calls to "FIGHT!" It was an intended slaughter which only failed because the best Trump could muster was a ragtag assortment of monster truck rally cosplayers. I think that you have sort of shown my point because you have adopted this stance of destroy everything that could possibly allow for communication. Next it'll be prevent people from using their phones, they could be plotting something.. Can't send snail mail.. Can't leave your house.. Can't breath.. All forms of communication carry the risk that they will be used for harm. I really think the antidote is to stop forcing people onto other platforms and just let everyone speak. If we all hear each other at least we can tend to you know, put people back onto a sensible path but with this line of thinking it's just not possible and SecondLife would be an inevitable victim of it simply because it lets humans communicate with other humans. 1 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said: If we all hear each other at least we can tend to you know, put people back onto a sensible path We now know beyond any doubt that this doesn't work. That was the dream of Facebook, now an obvious, fantastic failure, even after Zuckerberg added some rudimentary moderation. People are extremely vulnerable to unreasoned persuasion. It's why advertising is a huge industry and propaganda an effective weapon. Letting everybody "hear each other" is asking for slaughter. CDA Section 230 needs major work to shift some responsibility for content to publishers. I'm not so radical as to argue for its repeal, which would silence the internet to all but well-lawyered media with strict content control. In the meantime, though, tech must throw out the trash as a matter of societal survival. Google and Apple banning Parler from their app stores, and Amazon pulling their hosting plug, are the very least response required at the moment. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said: Yeah, but not the one you mean. I am no trump fan, what happened this month was wrong and I believe any inciting of violence should be condemned (and perpetrators punished) however, big tech dominating small tech for doing less of the same that that big tech does is the precedent I was talking about. :EDIT: Lets put it this way, what has been the result of Parlers removal? Widespread media coverage with many denouncing double standards of the big tech as well as fuelling an already large fire of so called removal of free speech that has been going on in the past year amongst certain groups reinforcing to them what their 'leader' was saying. What has it done to Parler? Nothing they have already said they expected this last year and had contingencies in place to transfer off AWS and start up again on another service. Lets look at Google, they removed the app from their store but android allows that app to be downloaded out of the store. So all it did is once again fuel the fire and spread the news that there is another site to go to other than twitter. The action big tech has taken has done the opposite effect and I fear strengthen the resolve of the wrong crowd and shown that a company can sabotage another company however good or bad that company is. Edited January 10, 2021 by Drayke Newall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bree Giffen Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 No one should ever be defending the actions of Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, etc. I believe that the offices of government should be respected. Congress should not be attacked and the President should also not be censored. All these big tech companies try to present a façade of of morality but the idea of evil corporations didn't spring out of nowhere. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwar Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 22 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said: All these big tech companies try to present a façade of of morality but the idea of evil corporations didn't spring out of nowhere. I saw an interesting documentary on Netflix recently about them big tech corporations. There absolutely is reason to be concerned when they get involved in deciding whose ideas should reach the public and whose shouldn't (and in doing so, only get even more attention, which is what they want to get more people to sign up). I'm no doomsayer though, I figure things will pan out ... Eventually. Just hoping it's within my lifetime! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Profaitchikenz Haiku Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said: a ragtag assortment of monster truck rally cosplayers I love this encapsulation. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said: I am no trump fan, what happened this month was wrong and I believe any inciting of violence should be condemned (and perpetrators punished) however, big tech dominating small tech for doing less of the same that that big tech does is the precedent I was talking about. :EDIT: Lets put it this way, what has been the result of Parlers removal? Widespread media coverage with many denouncing double standards of the big tech as well as fuelling an already large fire of so called removal of free speech that has been going on in the past year amongst certain groups reinforcing to them what their 'leader' was saying. What has it done to Parler? Nothing they have already said they expected this last year and had contingencies in place to transfer off AWS and start up again on another service. Lets look at Google, they removed the app from their store but android allows that app to be downloaded out of the store. So all it did is once again fuel the fire and spread the news that there is another site to go to other than twitter. The action big tech has taken has done the opposite effect and I fear strengthen the resolve of the wrong crowd and shown that a company can sabotage another company however good or bad that company is. Theresa Tennyson scratches her head. Didn't you essentially say the opposite of your conclusion in the preceding paragraphs of that post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said: I really think the antidote is to stop forcing people onto other platforms and just let everyone speak. If we all hear each other at least we can tend to you know, put people back onto a sensible path but with this line of thinking it's just not possible and SecondLife would be an inevitable victim of it simply because it lets humans communicate with other humans. The way my mind works, I find it difficult to shut out distractions. I'm miserable in a large room full of many different conversations because my brain is constantly trying to make sense of the noise even though that's impossible. The internet is basically the same situation. Without some way of shutting out irrelevant noise we wouldn't be able to get information at all. Try looking through the spam folder of your E-mail account, and then bear in mind all the piles of E-mails that were pre-filtered by your provider before they ever got there. Also, "everyone" is an imaginary concept on the internet because there isn't a fixed relationship between a human and any given information. One human can generate far more "information" than they actually have to share, and they can even write a simple program to generate far more than any given human could alone. The way most information is sorted in the internet currently is that it's filtered by what an algorithm thinks you want to hear. However, this means that you'll mostly hear what you want to hear, and there's no real way of having that pre-tested objectively and automatically for value and accuracy. I'm not saying that the current situation is necessarily ideal; however, I do find it interesting that it's basically run by private businesses making decisions without government interference, which is exactly the way a lot of people who complain most vocally about "big tech" say is how everything else should be run. Edited January 10, 2021 by Theresa Tennyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairreLilette Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) I'm fine with the cloud and AWS. I think it's a brilliant idea. Parler can go somewhere else...it's just a way to get press for it. To make an hypothetical: As far as individuals or groups within SL plotting to attack a Nation's Capital for example or a what-have-u coup, those persons and sims would be banned, not the whole of SL. It's kind of like this: If you want things your own way, build it yourself in SL. If you want your own media website, build it yourself...etc. I've already predicted Trump will get his own TV network. This just sets that up more. Edited January 10, 2021 by FairreLilette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drayke Newall Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Theresa Tennyson scratches her head. Didn't you essentially say the opposite of your conclusion in the preceding paragraphs of that post? Where on earth did you get that from what I wrote? I don't contradict anything I said. My entire post and posts in this thread have all been to show that big companies dominating or sabotaging smaller companies is a bad thing. Unless you mean how Parler has alternatives in line, but even then that is only them saying they have. Whether they can build it up again without been once again banned by another hosting platform remains to be seen and supports my position that a precedent has been set by Amazon where any other hosting platform can now do the same to them or others without fear. Also just because they have other avenues doesn't mean that a big company didn't sabotage a smaller one there for no contradiction was made and my post is fine. Edited January 10, 2021 by Drayke Newall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairreLilette Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said: Yesterday, I found out that Parler, an alternative to Twitter turns out to be using AWS, and AWS has decided on a weeks notice it's going to take Parler down. I find this to be concerning, As far as Parler, there are extreme right-wing "groups" who want to stage another coup on Inauguration Day. This is most likely the reason Parler was taken down. Violence is completely useless to mankind except in cases of self defense. Monster Truck raiders on the capital or whatever name someone wants to use is also useless and meaningless as people are dead because of this. It also seems kind of transparent, to me anyways, as a way to say do not defund the police in any way. I think it smells "fishy". We need those promised programs for people, not more police. And, most of us in America want reform, not defund entirely. Edited January 10, 2021 by FairreLilette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arduenn Schwartzman Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said: do we really want the fate of SecondLife to be in the control of anyone else but ourselves? What do you mean 'ourselves'? You never had control over SL. You're only using it as a commodity. You're not entitled (that's a socialist thing) to a Parler or Twitter or Second Life account. It's not your right. It's a privilege. You have to obey Linden Lab's rules. They are the boss, and they will kick you off their platform if they don't like you. But they like you, because they get your money and you go by their rules. So the narrative here is not that anyone's freedom of speech is being taken away, or that they're being censored. The narrative is that people are being kicked out for breaking the company's rules. In this particular case, Parler was a customer of Amazon. And Amazon kicked them out for breaking their rules. Now Parler has the amazing freedom to host their customer's content somewhere else. Heck, they can even start hosting their site from their mom's basement. And like Amazon, you too have the amazing freedom to start up your own company to host the craziest content, and your totally get to make up your own rules for your customers. If you have the capital, you make the rules. Be it highly ideological and political or out of plain old pure greed. They can be stupid rules that will bankrupt you, or smart rules that will give you profit. That's freedom for ya. And Capitalism! Edited January 10, 2021 by Arduenn Schwartzman 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animats Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 55 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said: What do you mean 'ourselves'? You never had control over SL. You're only using it as a commodity. The only real asset Linden Lab has it is its users and creators. The viewer is open source and others have implemented viewers. The server has been duplicated as Open Simulator. The really smart people who developed the system are all gone. LL doesn't even own their servers any more. All LL has left is a solid base of reasonably happy users. It's worth reminding LL management of this now and then. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arduenn Schwartzman Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, animats said: It's worth reminding LL management of this now and then. What do you suggest? 'Dear Linden Lab, don't host SL on those liberal commie Amazon cloud servers anymore, or welcome all those wandering souls from Parler and let them plan their coup d'etat in-world, or we will all stop paying Linden Home rent."? Or what are your specific demands? Edited January 10, 2021 by Arduenn Schwartzman 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmoe Whitfield Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said: What do you suggest? 'Dear Linden Lab, don't host SL on those liberal commie Amazon cloud servers anymore, or we will all stop paying Linden Home rent."? Or what are your specific demands? LL just closed the physical presence there is no where to move without shutting the platform down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myntz Mysterious Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 Just now, bigmoe Whitfield said: LL just closed the physical presence there is no where to move without shutting the platform down. Yup, the Arizona data center they owned is shutdown now. Over 10k in drives and SSDs shredded... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyssa Greymoon Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 As long as Linden Lab has rules and enforces them, SL isn’t getting Parlered. If something like Wonderland 2007 came up again, that could be a problem, but unlike Parler, LL seems to take that sort of thing seriously and cracks down on it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 10 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said: LL just closed the physical presence there is no where to move without shutting the platform down. It would take some work, but at SL scale there's also Google Cloud Platform, Microsoft's Azure, and IBM Cloud, in addition to AWS. That "some work" isn't trivial, but it's probably much less than moving operations from their previous co-lo to a different one. (At Parler's much smaller scale and simpler requirements, there's a wide selection of second and third-tier cloud providers that would be adequate.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Kiyori Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 Oh nooo the poor ickle neo nazis don't have a safe space to spew hatred, plotvcoups and potential mass murders anymore? Let my get my smallest kazoo to play the world's saddest song. Oh no wait, I don't give a poo about their feelings or "muh free speech"isms. Nor do I care that the big soical media corps banned the rotten fascist in cheif of america four years too late. See, there's these things called the EULA and TOS. A whee bt of legalise that allows big corps to shunt anyone off heir platfrom consequence free. Espically if they break the user end rules for use. Hate speech and inciting violence? Those tend to be against the rules. Uuuh and the laws of most countries in the world. So no, I don't feel comcerned wbout censorship because a bunch of violent thugs got to find out after they *****ed around. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmoe Whitfield Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 25 minutes ago, Matilda Melune said: Yup, the Arizona data center they owned is shutdown now. Over 10k in drives and SSDs shredded... yep, which is standard, even if a customer brings items in for recycling and they do, the drives are shipped from the store to me, so I handle their physical destruction with proof to the company or person I'm handling it for, documentation is key Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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