Why creators don't make clothes for Belleza Isis?

[GabrielaNapolitakis]

Hello, I have Belleza body pack, Freya, Isis and Venus. I have noticed that most of creators don't make clothes for Isis anymore, only for Freya.

Why? I have Isis body, but no clothes, it's like they force me to buy Maitreya Lara 

So, why creators don't make clothes for Belleza Isis?

 

Sorry about my english.

[RitaCallisto]

Isis shape is pretty similar to Maitreya in size, and not many people use Isis anymore so many creators have phased it out. Unfortunately even Freya may be going south soon since the Belleza creator has pretty much left the bodies to rot. Which is a pity because Freya looks much better than a lot of these newer curvy bodies, but you know.. new and shiny.

Edited December 16, 2020 by RitaCallisto

[Gwin LeShelle]

I think it is not only about new and shiny.

Belleza has not updated their body in ages, while all others do. LeLutka with their new neck, and other bodies fast adapting to it among other things.

It's like the creator completely have given up on his product honestly.

My husband is wearing his Belleza Jake and that body has had issues for ages now, with the stuff and frozen hands, or the nails disappearing and you need to toggle them on and off again and more. The hubby curses alot infront of his PC haha

And no one seems to care I think that's why, the support is slowly getting less and less, and Isis and Venus sadly never had that much of a support to begin with 😔

Edited December 16, 2020 by Gwin LeShelle

[Lewis Luminos]

4 hours ago, GabrielaNapolitakis said:

Why? I have Isis body, but no clothes, it's like they force me to buy Maitreya Lara 

It's really the opposite - so few people buy Isis that it's forcing creators to drop support for it. Same with other similar bodies. None of them come even close to 10% of Maitreya's popularity so it makes no sense for creators to make anything for them. And it really does look like Belleza has abandoned the mesh body business and is just leaving them up for sale out of convenience.

[GabrielaNapolitakis]

Thank you, It's a shame that Isis no longer has support, Freya is beautiful anyway, I love that body.

I think I will buy Maitreya body, I hope there is some discount for christmas  😄

Venus and Isis are dead. 

[Marianne Little]

1 hour ago, GabrielaNapolitakis said:

Thank you, It's a shame that Isis no longer has support, Freya is beautiful anyway, I love that body.

I think I will buy Maitreya body, I hope there is some discount for christmas  😄

Venus and Isis are dead. 

I will not disappoint you, but it was a 50% sale a week ago... 😩

[foneco Zuzu]

Well I use Belleza isis since its beginnings and no other body but it.

Regarding the why there is not more clothes for it i can only guess laziness form many creators and also the absolute monopoly created by Maitreya.

As updates concern, i think Belleza only lacks BOM that i never intended to use in 1st place.

 

[colleen Criss]

I have been a Freya fan since it was released still creators create for it despite the lack of updates and / or support. I currently use Legacy, Kupra and Kalhene more often than Belleza. Although we all may own several bodies and heads there is only so many hours in anyone persons day so of course creators will eventually phase out certain bodies.

[Janet Voxel]

I saw a few things for Isis at Epiphany today. 

I think the problem is creators really don't have a scientific way of telling how many people wear a particular body. Yeah, every once in a while someone does a survey, but ehhh......if you make a survey about which bodies a creator should make clothes for, would people that wear a body you don't make clothes for necessarily know that you put a survey out? Probably not, which kind of confirms the bias you already had. I've also been in chats on Discord where people have said "__________ is doing a survey, go vote for ____________ body!" They also never ask "What would your second choice be?" a lot of people wear a certain body because it has the most clothes and no other reason.

The other problem is Freya scales really well. You can make a Freya Isis size, the only difference would be the breast's cup size. If you wanted to be slim with a Freya you absolutely could. I have a Freya and an Isis, I mainly wear Freya because it kinda can do Isis. This is a Freya believe it or not:

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Janet Voxel

[Janet Voxel]

16 minutes ago, colleen Criss said:

I have been a Freya fan since it was released still creators create for it despite the lack of updates and / or support. I currently use Legacy, Kupra and Kalhene more often than Belleza. Although we all may own several bodies and heads there is only so many hours in anyone persons day so of course creators will eventually phase out certain bodies.

I think another thing people don't realize when it comes to creating and Belleza bodies: It's one of the only bodies that is in an A pose, when creating. The A pose has a lot of merits, but I can't think of another body that uses it.

That might not mean anything to the average user, but to most creators going from the T-pose to A-pose is kind of a PITA.

[steeljane42]

2 hours ago, foneco Zuzu said:

Regarding the why there is not more clothes for it i can only guess laziness form many creators and also the absolute monopoly created by Maitreya.

Time is money. Not everyone can afford to hire a good quality riggers like some big brands do, so instead of rigging clothes to unpopular bodies people spend their time on creating new things.

And what monopoly? Or it's going to be another conspiracy theory of how "bad bad Onyx doesn't handle dev kits to anyone who makes things for other bodies" ? it was quite popular back in the days. But as Legacy's example shows - it's as far from the truth as it gets. it's possible to get a huge chunk for the market even with such awful reputation as TMP has, even with numerous issues and terrible web based HUD. And "suddenly" creators are interested to make for more bodies, because there's a big demand for it.

1 hour ago, Janet Voxel said:

I think the problem is creators really don't have a scientific way of telling how many people wear a particular body. Yeah, every once in a while someone does a survey, but ehhh......if you make a survey about which clothes a creator should make, would people that wear a body you don't make clothes for necessarily know that you put a survey out? Probably not, which kind of confirms the bias you already had. I've also been in chats on Discord where people have said "__________ is doing a survey, go vote for ____________ body!" They also never ask "What would your second choice be?" a lot of people wear a certain body because it has the most clothes and no other reason.

Voting rally is a thing, yes. Lately mostly seen for that Kupra body. Which is as niche as it gets, but still being heavily pushed towards mainstream with constant choir of "kupra pls" on flickr comments. I guess they did learn from TMP's strategy, but not sure how far it'll get them.

But other than that surveys sometimes actually have two choices, something like "most worn body" and "favorite body". Maitreya always wins both, 1st by a landslide, 2nd as well, but there are smaller gap between 1st and 2nd/3rd places, which are taken by Legacy and Freya these days if not count petite/perky versions.

And I agree that surveys in general are not very accurate. Although if a creator makes sizes for all mainstream bodies for years, like Blueberry does, and there's zero need to do extra voting there, they are *somewhat accurate* I suppose. At least as far as active SL users and fashionistas go. I assume vast majority of SL population doesn't bother with flickr, blogs, survey and similar things. And, like you said, just use what got most clothes for and/or what they like the most, or just what they got long ago (it's a rather big investment for some people). I still see hordes of Catwa Catyas in world, while its age (and it being pretty much 1st *big* bento head ever released) shows, while there's almost none left if go by flickr pictures.

[Janet Voxel]

8 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

Voting rally is a thing, yes. Lately mostly seen for that Kupra body. Which is as niche as it gets, but still being heavily pushed towards mainstream with constant choir of "kupra pls" on flickr comments. I guess they did learn from TMP's strategy, but not sure how far it'll get them.

I mostly agree with what you said. Except for the Kupra being niche part, it's a little more mainstream than niche, because its a well made body that has an excellent shape range, like Freya. While no, your average Maitreya(they won't switch for anything for the most part) user won't jump ship for it, it sure as hell is going to clean up the rest of the Hourglass and Freya users that didn't switch over to Legacy. Belleza users probably could learn a lesson from TMP too, it's probably the most quiet body group I'm a member of.

[foneco Zuzu]

13 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

Time is money. Not everyone can afford to hire a good quality riggers like some big brands do, so instead of rigging clothes to unpopular bodies people spend their time on creating new things.

And what monopoly? Or it's going to be another conspiracy theory of how "bad bad Onyx doesn't handle dev kits to anyone who makes things for other bodies" ? it was quite popular back in the days. But as Legacy's example shows - it's as far from the truth as it gets. it's possible to get a huge chunk for the market even with such awful reputation as TMP has, even with numerous issues and terrible web based HUD. And "suddenly" creators are interested to make for more bodies, because there's a big demand for it.

Voting rally is a thing, yes. Lately mostly seen for that Kupra body. Which is as niche as it gets, but still being heavily pushed towards mainstream with constant choir of "kupra pls" on flickr comments. I guess they did learn from TMP's strategy, but not sure how far it'll get them.

But other than that surveys sometimes actually have two choices, something like "most worn body" and "favorite body". Maitreya always wins both, 1st by a landslide, 2nd as well, but there are smaller gap between 1st and 2nd/3rd places, which are taken by Legacy and Freya these days if not count petite/perky versions.

And I agree that surveys in general are not very accurate. Although if a creator makes sizes for all mainstream bodies for years, like Blueberry does, and there's zero need to do extra voting there, they are *somewhat accurate* I suppose. At least as far as active SL users and fashionistas go. I assume vast majority of SL population doesn't bother with flickr, blogs, survey and similar things. And, like you said, just use what got most clothes for and/or what they like the most, or just what they got long ago (it's a rather big investment for some people). I still see hordes of Catwa Catyas in world, while its age (and it being pretty much 1st *big* bento head ever released) shows, while there's almost none left if go by flickr pictures.

I must agree with the catwa, i only have a body, isis and a head, catwa , Ine of the 1st models, Helena to be more precise.

 

[foneco Zuzu]

But im very conservative; I did my shape in 2010 and the only work i did was to adapt the body i felt worked better with it, same as the head.

As i use my own skin, it was easy to change it to fit both the body and the head, so i really dont have any reasons to try any else since those times.

 

[steeljane42]

55 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

I mostly agree with what you said. Except for the Kupra being niche part, it's a little more mainstream than niche, because its a well made body that has an excellent shape range, like Freya. While no, your average Maitreya(they won't switch for anything for the most part) user won't jump ship for it, it sure as hell is going to clean up the rest of the Hourglass and Freya users that didn't switch over to Legacy. Belleza users probably could learn a lesson from TMP too, it's probably the most quiet body group I'm a member of.

Well, it's not "as niche", so yeah, bad wording on my part, their previous body was totally more niche. I'd say it's more between niche and mainstream, too. But not sure if remaining Freya/HG users going to jump the ship for it. I admit I didn't experiment with it too much, because it's not really my thing, but even on very low sliders values it's quite... curvy. While plenty of Freya/HG users are quite average, with just a little bit of extra around chest and/or bottom than maitreya allows without starting to look odd, like on your picture from above. They might lose hope and finally get Legacy maybe. In fact I suspect lots did during black friday sales when it was half price, which should've been their normal price to begin with.

And yeah, Belleza are just notoriously slow with updates. They took forever to add bento hands, around 1.5 years since official bento release. Now they are taking forever to add BoM and (hopefully) the "SL neck" fit so it can be used with new heads without a need for choker.

Not sure of the reason behind it, but it really does look like it's just a small side hobby for Belleza's creator. No communication, no peeks of what's coming aside of two profile picks with text, no marketing or PR anywhere. I think Legacy's popularity is partially thanks to that fact, since lots of ex-Belleza users didn't want to use Maitreya, but had no alternative until Legacy was released, while around 2015-2018 they had a solid 2nd place.

 

50 minutes ago, foneco Zuzu said:

But im very conservative

That's understandable. I don't change my look often, too, and used Lelutka's Simone 2.0 from its release in 2016 to release of Evolution heads early 2020, with just 2 different skins in total. Would have been one, but update later on changed UV map and my 1st skin didn't look good on it anymore.

Edited December 17, 2020 by steeljane42
typos

[RitaCallisto]

Legacy's popularity is definitely from their PR. You couldn't(and still can't) go to any shopping event without seeing it advertised. It's all over stores as well. God knows the money they paid to get it out there, but with it being almost double the price of every other body.. it's to be expected.

Kupra is a body I will never touch, personally. It's too exaggerated and while I love "curvy" ladies, there is such a thing as too big imo.. That look just isn't my cup of tea. If you love it though, then go for it. The only opinion that matters on your avatar is your own.

If Legacy upped the "chonk" ability on their legs/thighs a little(more range), they'd sit better in that community, I think. Thigh gaps are not really a thing on "curvy" women. It can look pretty nice if done right, but if you set your hips too wide then it just starts looking like the old "Pony thighs" of SL.

T-Rex arms and Pony Thighs..

Edited December 18, 2020 by RitaCallisto

[Rowan Amore]

14 minutes ago, RitaCallisto said:

Legacy's popularity is definitely from their PR. You couldn't(and still can't) go to any shopping event without seeing it advertised. It's all over stores as well. God knows the money they paid to get it out there, but with it being almost double the price of every other body.. it's to be expected.

Kupra is a body I will never touch, personally. It's too exaggerated and while I love "curvy" ladies, there is such a thing as too big imo.. That look just isn't my cup of tea. If you love it though, then go for it. The only opinion that matters on your avatar is your own.

If Legacy upped the "chonk" ability on their legs/thighs a little(more range), they'd sit better in that community, I think. Thigh gaps are not really a thing on "curvy" women. It can look pretty nice if done right, but if you set your hips too wide then it just starts looking like the old "Pony thighs" of SL.

T-Rex arms and Pony Thighs..

I was a Maitreya user from the beginning.  I tried all of the others but never was able to get a better look until legacy came out.  There's just something softer? about it overall. I don't recall which one it was but slink or belleza's breasts always seems kind of pointy over a certain size.  Just odd looking to me.  I know people dislike legacy for many reason such as triangles, no omega, media enabled stuff but I haven't found anything I like better.

[RitaCallisto]

25 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

I was a Maitreya user from the beginning.  I tried all of the others but never was able to get a better look until legacy came out.  There's just something softer? about it overall. I don't recall which one it was but slink or belleza's breasts always seems kind of pointy over a certain size.  Just odd looking to me.  I know people dislike legacy for many reason such as triangles, no omega, media enabled stuff but I haven't found anything I like better.

Legacy is not bad looking by any means. It's frankly gorgeous(not 5k gorgeous though). While I still use my Maitreya, I do have Legacy. I don't use it currently(and haven't much since I got it last year on Black Friday) mainly due to the fact that clothing styles I like simply aren't with it yet. They recently updated their deformers so i'll have to test those with some clothing at some point.

I do very much agree with you on the Freya breasts, though. I never tend to get too big, but they certainly do start to look torpedo-ish eventually.

Also with Legacy being 20k higher complexity than Maitreya alone, if i'm trying to keep complexity down with everything these days, I gotta cut corners somewhere lol. If I can find things I like to go with it and keep it at a reasonable complexity, then maybe i'll put a look together.

[Cougar Sangria]

1 hour ago, RitaCallisto said:

Kupra is a body I will never touch, personally. It's too exaggerated and while I love "curvy" ladies, there is such a thing as too big imo.. That look just isn't my cup of tea. If you love it though, then go for it. The only opinion that matters on your avatar is your own.

If Legacy upped the "chonk" ability on their legs/thighs a little(more range), they'd sit better in that community, I think. Thigh gaps are not really a thing on "curvy" women. It can look pretty nice if done right, but if you set your hips too wide then it just starts looking like the old "Pony thighs" of SL.

T-Rex arms and Pony Thighs..

^^^This^^^ plus shrunked head syndrome.   Frankly I see a lot of "Pony Thighs"  while out and about.  Lots of T-Rex arms as well.  

I love my Maitreya. I've been a loyal customer since the beginning of 2015.  It is the only body I will wear.   I have tried the other popular bodies and they all lack in some respect.  Lara has her issues as well, but, they are minute compared to the others.  My opinion, I know, and I am entitled to it.   It does not matter how many design for the body.  If I love the overall aesthetic I am going to wear it.   

Same goes for Catwa Catya.  I have tried all other major brand mesh heads and none come close to the look I now have.  Until Catwa, or who ever comes out with a mesh head that keeps the look I have worked my tail off to achive, I am not switching.  

I am not a look of the hour, day or week kind of person.  One mesh body, one mesh head, one skin. one shape is all I need.  I'll spend my lindens elsewhere :)

[Rowan Amore]

50 minutes ago, RitaCallisto said:

 

 torpedo-ish 

 

Word of the day!

[Orwar]

3 hours ago, RowanMinx said:

There's just something softer? about it overall.

   It's due to the high vertice density. The more points you have when drawing a curve with straight lines, the softer it will appear. It's also why the triangle count is so obnoxiously high.

[steeljane42]

41 minutes ago, Orwar said:

 It's due to the high vertice density. The more points you have when drawing a curve with straight lines, the softer it will appear. It's also why the triangle count is so obnoxiously high.

It's actually not that much higher, considering they still have all layers included, unlike maitreya's separate layers now. The body itself is 146k vertices and 220k triangles, vs 110k and 176k for 5.3 maitreya (counting feet and hands, since they are not separate now). If legacy would get rid of applier layers I think body itself would be close enough to maitreya as far as vertices and triangles go. Crazy numbers it has all come from hands to a lesser extent and feet (509k and 380k for those). Why is anyone's guess. Before we could speculate it's because they can be resized via shape sliders, but now maitreya has the same and it didn't really affect numbers at all.

4 hours ago, RitaCallisto said:

Also with Legacy being 20k higher complexity than Maitreya alone, if i'm trying to keep complexity down with everything these days, I gotta cut corners somewhere lol. If I can find things I like to go with it and keep it at a reasonable complexity, then maybe i'll put a look together.

You really shouldn't use complexity numbers for anything until LL reworks the system. That formula is flawed and has a better chance to show phases of some moon in another galaxy, than what it supposed to. Below is a picture with numbers of an old non bento Catwa head that has more vertices and triangles than a few well put avatars together, with all their heads, bodies, clothes and accessories. Yet it's below 10k complexity.

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by steeljane42

[Nalates Urriah]

15 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

...

You really shouldn't use complexity numbers for anything until LL reworks the system. That formula is flawed and has a better chance to show phases of some moon in another galaxy, than what it supposed to. Below is a picture with numbers of an old non bento Catwa head that has more vertices and triangles than a few well put avatars together, with all their heads, bodies, clothes and accessories. Yet it's below 10k complexity.

I disagree. You are right in that ACI numbers are not a good representation of the actual render cost. But they are all we have now. And they do feed the Jelly-Doll rendering system. Using them to make decisions on what to wear/buy is reasonable.

They do give a quick and easy way to compare outfits. 

Starting out they were a reasonably adequate measure of complexity. Since their implementation designers have found some ways to cheat to get lower ACI while actually driving up render cost. With those exploits in play and changes in graphics rendering technology we do need a better algorithm for calculating the current render cost and Jelly-Doll trigger points. It is coming. But the current ACI isn't so bad as to make development of the new algorithm a high priority.

[FairreLilette]

On 12/17/2020 at 9:53 AM, Marianne Little said:

I will not disappoint you, but it was a 50% sale a week ago... 😩

Since it sounds like the OP has only had one body, it's still a good price for a body.  It's your body and it gets a lot of use.  What is the Maitreya body about $12 U.S. dollars or so for something that doesn't need changing a lot; to me that is a good deal.  Maitreya (Onxy) gives a lot too with her updates.  She's a very giving and thorough designer.  

I am still a one body player, Maitreya.  I have shown photos taken on ULTRA graphics where Maitreya actually looks like a real body.  This is why I love it.  I like to be a thin and it could use perhaps a full petite body some day, imo.  

I tried Legacy, it was too dollish, imo.  I do want to actually have doll looks for some of my avatars, but more like antique doll looks, not plastic doll look.  Legacy has thighs that do not look real.  

I did not choose Maitreya simply because it has the most clothes.  I choose it because it looks the most real.  I loved it from the moment I saw it as well as the first time I tried it on; but it can have still a bit too big of a butt for certain thin looks but that's a fault of the rigger not starting Maitreya at 0 on all sliders, not the fault of the Maitreya body itself.  

Edited December 19, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Orwar]

15 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I like to be a thin and it could use perhaps a full petite body some day, imo.  

   You can achieve an even more petite look with some deformers, as well as adjust the shoulder shape if you prefer a more 'sleek' appearance. 

   Neph uses one for a 'flatter' (rather, 'concave') belly, one that brings her shoulders down a little (I don't much like the 'bicycle handlebar' look), one that brings her shoulders in a little (shoulder width, without causing her torso to squish), one for a flatter posterior (Maitreya's is quite curved, even with a 0 on the size slider), and one to bring the thighs apart a little (to avoid clipping mostly, it does add a little bit towards her pear-shape, but the inner thighs sticking out in such a way that they clip almost constantly is my second least feature of the body - after the shoulders' design in the rear of the armpit). She also has deformers to give her a 'push-up' look for when wearing tight lacing (because I'm too lazy to go edit the shape to get that look whenever I'm trying on clothes or putting together an outfit!).

   It's a bit of an investment, but works as a great complement to the body if that's the kind of look you want to go for (there are of course deformers that take things in the entirely opposite direction, if you'd rather have a torpedo-butt or a 'thicc' look).