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Search Places is Broken


Prokofy Neva
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So this is very important, regardless of whether the forums regs who don't go inworld don't think it is. Note that this is on the standard Second Life viewer

Search is not working as expected.

Normally, when I type in "Ravenglass Rentals" into search/places, I get a list of all those parcels that I have checked off to pay the $30 weekly fee to be viewable in the search/places function. This is a different function than "classifieds," where I could pay $100 or $10,000 depending on how high I want the visibility to be.

The $30 search/places ad is merely to show up in a search with a term on search/places.

Normally, this number will be between 100-150, depending on how many I checked off by Tuesday, when it debits on group land as a group expense, called a "liability".

Now, when I type "Ravenglass Rentals" into "search/places" I get 4,420 results. That is, as I can see from looking at it, not only many of my parcels not even checked off for the $30 search ad, but other people's rentals, as can be expected when you look with categories at "all".

But normally categories are UNRELATED to the search/places search which turns up *what you have paid for only, from the list of $30 ads*. And that's as it should be, because it was not connected historically, and should not be connected as it only adds confusion to the search process. 

So let's try taking categories off "All" and see what we get. For some reason "rentals" isn't even showing in the list, which is odd, because it's still an option you can select to label your parcel inworld. And it would be especially important to leave it in if for some reason someone has the "bright idea" to link search/places searches to those categories -- when in fact they should only turn up $30 ads.

And now we get what is more like the list expected, 148 entries, although not what was previously listed, i.e. the $30 ads. Let's hope this isn't a "feature" and is in fact recognizable as a "bug".

So something has made the $30 ads cease to have meaning, and it needs to be fixed. Otherwise, it is pointless to be paying the $30 and checking off places to be found in search -- in results that are 100, not 5000. That's the point. It's a good thing. To be sure, I wish it were $10 and not $30, like a texture, because it's merely an effort to give a cleaner search result with an exact term -- which a search should do for free, since classifieds should be what gives you high visibility. Classifieds do work to make sales, although it's really unpredictable and the rules of it aren't clear, likely deliberately so, to prevent "gaming of search," which the Lindens fix by gaming the search their way.

THIS particular problem, however, needs to be fixed, and not merely for my rentals, but for any search for anything anyone wants to find, whether it be shopping or sites of interest to explore. It's central to SL. I remember when this was broken some years ago I had to jump up and down to get any attention because too many people didn't grasp it and didn't use it, or maybe it wasn't broken on Firestorm.

If for no other reason then that the planned Second Life economy includes the sinks of the $30 search/places ads, and for that to continue, they have to be effective and have meaning

Again, search ads in search/places should NOT be tied to those categories -- which I personally find of marginal use. For one, people don't always set them so they are meaningless. For two, they forget to change them or don't have time to change them when they go from, say, rentals to residence or to hang-out. 

PS I personally find the search of rentals under "land and rentals" to be pointless for many reasons and don't bother playing to it, even as a rentals agent. And I find customers don't use it, either, because it's annoying and finicky. You have to keep re-setting it.

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Edited by Prokofy Neva
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So let me try to simplify this and make it relevant possibly to those in business, at least.

A customer asks to have his store put in "search/places" -- the $30 ad. 

There's already a glitch and has been for years that the check-off of that box simply does not show to anyone looking at it EXCEPT for the officers with the power to add it. Even if that power is granted to non-officers and non-owners, for some reason they can't see it unless they have the power to sell land as well. Who knows why.

So often I have to tell people to search on their direct store name to make sure it is working.

Before today's "fix," a search on a direct store name turned up one result -- that direct store name.

A search on that person's key words in their land description turned up a defined list -- long or short depending on how common the keyword is. An exotic or rare or unique word would have fewer returns.

Now, a search on that exact store name turns up a list of 4200. "42" being a thing, I guess.

It shouldn't. It should turn up one return.

Obviously, someone paying $30 for a store ad, or a rental including the ad, doesn't expect to see 4000 returns, where they might or may not be on top depending on traffic and other things the Lindens factor in -- because the search *was on an exact title*.

So it needs to be put back the way it was.

Edited by Prokofy Neva
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So to continue reporting on this issue, which remains a problem.

Searches on exact names (first and last avatar names) is also producing "4200" instead of just one or a few.

Normally if you search on a precise name, you get a return with that avatar, and possibly other avatars who mentioned that avatar on their profile, and possibly some similar names. Now it is returning thousands.

When I search now for "Ravenglass Rentals," which normally returns 100-150 entries -- how ever many $30 search/places I have checked off that week -- was returning 4200; currently it is returning 2279 entries, some of which are my land, some not, some of which are checked off to be in search for $30, some not.

So at 9:39 pm EST, my question for myself is whether I scurry around now and uncheck all the lots since they aren't working; otherwise, I will be paying some $4500 Lindens tonight. That is, I have a system where I have group fees apply, and charge each group member 2L for this service of search, since everyone uses search to find and move among rentals. If they move to a new rental in the system, the cancellation fee is returned. A few people complain about this every month, usually because they failed to notice the 5 ways in which they are notified of an additional 2L fee -- but most people grasp that they are already in discount rentals and it is often $1L or nothing, depending on the ads, so it's not a big deal. If your SL is broken by $8 a month, maybe you should not be renting at all. Or find an even cheaper box somewhere.

ANYWAY, even with a portion of this $18 or $20 bill covered every week -- so that's like $80 a month which is not trivial -- I still have to pay a lot of it, as I reimburse the groups if the amount goes over 2L and it does for some groups with stores in particular. So that's why I care about this. And that's why despite being busy enough already in RL and SL I will now hump around to as many lots as I can to take them out of search since search is NOT WORKING.

BTW, I see in the returns lot that were put in search as long ago as last year, with their textures, even though those same lots are not rented by different people and have different textures. So there is some kind of cache of old search in this mess-up as well. Maybe the Lindens are in the processing of cleaning this up if I have less returns now? Who knows. 

But the prudent thing to do is to recoup for myself now about US $20 and spend it on classifieds. Perhaps I should do that forever. However, that is not a "sure thing" either. Advertising in SL is such a challenge. I will be reduced to putting land for sale as a technique to make it show on the map even though it is only for rent, a practice I abhor.

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So I am spending 45 minutes I don't have on a busy night with lots of Christmas things to do in RL and SL as well as work, taking all my land out of search places.

I know there's at least 150 sites, but I can't now find them efficiently because...search is broken.

But by going around to my known sims and using the broken search I can find some locations, and then root around finding parcels in search and taking them OUT.

So hopefully I will save myself $20 US by tonight when the system goes through and charges group land for the service -- which is broken now.

I have no illusions that my $20 a week removed from Linden's sink coffers will matter, or even if 100 other people notice and remove this sink. But the Lindens did fix this before because in general they don't like to have things featured that don't work. Like for a long time the social media posts were broken, and finally, because they didn't work at all, they removed them completely from the viewer rather than creating a misleading offer. 

I'm noticing that the search returns contain:

o land parcels once put in search but not supposed to be showing any more because it was taken out -- that means old returns are stuck in the system

o land that was not supposed to be in search -- if you don't check off a land to be in search and pay for it, it SHOULD NOT BE VIEWABLE in search. That is we are not searching on "hangouts" to find all hangouts because ordinarily that is not possible, as far as I understand. People let it be know in very strong terms back when the Electric Sheep monkeyed with the old search objects option that they do not want to be found unless they asked to be found -- and that is an important privacy issue. Certain people who may not imagine it now have 560 search results, for example.

o ads from parcels that don't exist because land has been re-parceled -- that problem can persist for a day or two like map changes but is now system-wide 

o although I searched on the exact name of my company, I get the returns of many other companies like Kalyrra because they have ads as well or land marked "rentals". 

Yeah, that's how Google works, too. But as I've often said, Google appliance is really not the right search appliance for this little world, and they should have the system they used in Viewer 1. And Google in the real world works better to filter -- while "Ravenglass Rentals" gets 943 returns on RL Google, at least the top ones are all related to my actual rentals business, although of course to the RL Ravenglass as you go down. That's not what we have currently in broken search.

Perhaps Kalyrra might complain about this broken search but not likely as they use classifieds they can afford as a big business.

So I wonder what it will take to get others to notice this, as I've said before the two times this happened in recent years, it's mainly small and medium Mainland business that is harmed by this outage. That's because really big stores don't even put in search/places ads, something that surprises me. Whenever anyone asks me how to increase real traffic of buyers, and not fake traffic by bots, I say, put in a good search/places ad.

But big stores either use classifieds or they are on people's profiles and that lends word-of-mouth sales -- sometimes they pay to be on profiles by giving people perks or entering them into raffles if they put the store on their profiles.

So let's take a name like "lelutka". Search should return only that store by its exact names, and possibly more stores that sell those heads. But now it has 233 returns, some of which are unrelated.

Or let's take "Apple Fall". Like lelutka, it is in first place in a search currently on the broken search, yet the subsequent returns are for things like "Apple Island" or "Shabby Apple" -- unrelated to Apple. Apple Fall may or may not care about this; I suppose they are big enough not to care.

Perhaps Casper will care. A search on that term, which under ordinary circumstances would give you that maker of vendors in first place, because that's what people click on most, now search puts the private land of some piazza renters in first place, though they did not check off search most likely.

 

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Edited by Prokofy Neva
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So search/places and other searches are broken and this situation has persisted for two days now.

I discovered from talking to tenants who use Firestorm that this function is also not behaving as expected and as it did previously.

A very distinct store name might return one entry. "Ravenglass Rentals" which used to return only 150, or the number of search/places ads I paid, for $30, returns 2100 on both the regular SL viewer and on Firestorm.

These returns contain land that was NOT put in search; land that was in search in the past and was removed; land that was reparceled differently months ago; also others on one of the key words. Thus for "Ravenglass Rentals" there are over 2100 returns, the first few in search or not in search, and containing other rentals. Before, it only returned those lots which I had checked off for search/places and paid $30.

So to the extent possible I am removing these $30 ads that aren't working; however, they are hard to find because...search is broken.

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1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So search/places and other searches are broken and this situation has persisted for two days now.

I discovered from talking to tenants who use Firestorm that this function is also not behaving as expected and as it did previously.

A very distinct store name might return one entry. "Ravenglass Rentals" which used to return only 150, or the number of search/places ads I paid, for $30, returns 2100 on both the regular SL viewer and on Firestorm.

These returns contain land that was NOT put in search; land that was in search in the past and was removed; land that was reparceled differently months ago; also others on one of the key words. Thus for "Ravenglass Rentals" there are over 2100 returns, the first few in search or not in search, and containing other rentals. Before, it only returned those lots which I had checked off for search/places and paid $30.

So to the extent possible I am removing these $30 ads that aren't working; however, they are hard to find because...search is broken.

Perhaps you should make a spreadsheet with all you property and keep it updated with which ones you had in the ads.  That way, when there is an issue, you don't need to wander aimlessly.  I'd have thought you'd have had something like that already.

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36 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

Perhaps you should make a spreadsheet with all you property and keep it updated with which ones you had in the ads.  That way, when there is an issue, you don't need to wander aimlessly.  I'd have thought you'd have had something like that already.

No, that would require way too much time and it changes constantly. To my recollection, this function has been broken twice before. Once, when they changed from Viewer 1 to Viewer 2 permanently -- search was simply better under Viewer 1 and never recovered, so I consider that a break. And another time, a year ago or so, when it was broken like this, and it took days to get people to grasp it and fix it, but it was fixed.

Therefore, since it mainly is a function that works -- and works very well -- there is no reason to back it up with spreadsheets. BTW you are so knowledgeable about what is on the web page, you should know that all properties in Group Land are listed. So one thing you can do is use that as inventory control and put an asterisk when something is rented but then people often just change the names of the land themselves, which is just as well and saves you the trouble. You can also find when odd things have been left in search by tracking the web list.

People who opt to place their business in the hands of Casper can get this sort of thing online with reports, but I prefer not to do this for many reasons. I use an open source rental script.

I think it's good to be involved with your virtual business on the properties and not merely rely on online reports. I always see things I can fix and improve by doing so.

You might try confirming this brokenness of Search yourself but of course that would be too generous.

Eventually @Whirly Fizzleor some other kind person will be along and confirm that this is indeed broken, and it's not about me. I am merely giving my own business as an example.

Again, if for some reasons the Lindens decide they can't fix this -- that happens to them with other things like social media -- then they need to STOP CHARGING for Search/Places ads because they ARE BROKEN.

However, it's likely they can fix it; they have before.

 

Edited by Prokofy Neva
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So, search/places and other forms of search have been broken for more than 3 days now, ever since a fix was implemented for the log-in issues of Monday (which may or may not be related).

I filed a ticket with the Lindens and here is the answer I got:

 

Hello Prokofy Neva,

Thank you for contacting Second Life Support, and for your patience. When you submitted this support ticket, we had been receiving some reports that search was displaying more results than normal. Our engineers looked into this and have since made an update, so things should be back to normal. Are you still seeing more results than expected in search?

Please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns!

Best Wishes,

Dottie Linden
Supervisor, Concierge Support
Linden Lab

So the answer is: no, there's no change, it is not back to normal, and the system is still returning "too many" search entries -- but then, "too many" is really only one aspect of this problem.

I'm still seeing the exact same number of "too many" (2133) for what should usually only produce at most 150 (a search/places search with the term "Ravenglass Rentals).

And for those with difficulties in conceptual thinking bound to literalism, this isn't about me or my business or my searches. Try searching on your terms or you business name. Again, I'm surprised Casper isn't complaining about not showing up at all, but then maybe expensive classifieds are enough for him, I have no idea.

The bottom line -- this is broken. Search/places, for which we pay $30/parcel remains broken, and paying $30/parcel is now meaningless.

Yes, I have relogged and cleared cache multiple times after getting this notice it was "fixed".

BTW reports indicated this issue is on Firestorm as well.

 

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So for going on 6 days now, Search/Places and other forms of search have been broken.

o Old search ads from 9 months ago are showing although they were long ago replaced by others

o Search TP is taking you to old ads that don't exist because now the parcel has been re-done

o Land that was not put in search is showing up in search

o Before it was broken, a search on a term "Ravenglass Rentals" in search/places showed pretty much only those parcels I had put in search for $30/wk. Now it shows other rentals agencies so it is less precise.

It's understood that all searches become less precise as you page through them. But prior to becoming broken, search/places worked to show only those ads you paid for if you searched on a precise business  name.

I could note that the phrase "SL Public Land Preserve" when put in search/places previously showed in the first few pages only the ads put in search, and possibly a few other nature preserves, for only at most a few hundred returns.

Currently, there are 7,740 returns on that phrase for a search in search/places.

Search/places -- again -- is broken and is not behaving as expected and as it has for years.

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7 hours ago, Aishagain said:

Just random musing...I wonder if this is related to the map tile failures?

Since it affects not just places but names, I don't think so. I think it's a failure of the Google search appliance within SL.

I should note that search/people works just as terribly now.

It's impossible to find names unless just randomly they happen to surface on the top.

You  can try closed quotes -- it doesn't have any effect.

Names simply will not show up for pages and pages and after awhile you can't get the browser to keep going, at least I can't.

So that means if someone pays, yet fails to join the group, you can't reach them to do that. That's because even with their avatar key (from the rental box), there isn't any way to reach them -- you can't IM them with that key on any script, and it does not show up in search/people to aid finding them (I think it used to but that was removed).

If you happened to talk to them, you might be able to use their chat offline in your folders to pull them up, but basically you have to hope that you will find that online in the place they rented before they refund in frustration because they didn't read anything and didn't realize they had to join the group using the joiner right on site.

The same with refunds to people. Let's say someone accidentally bought a copyable thing twice. You can't turn them up in search. 

PS if you hope to pull out that slurl with the "app agent" out of a payment record that is in your offline SL folders, forget about it, as the system gives you a message: "The SLurl you clicked on is not supported." -- no matter how you paste it.

Edited by Prokofy Neva
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  • 2 weeks later...

So search/places and search/people has been badly broken for more than TWO WEEKS now.

Why don't the Lindens feel any pressure to fix this?

BECAUSE IT IS NOT BROKEN ON FIRESTORM OR ALCHEMY AND POSSIBLY OTHER VIEWERS!

Therefore few people grasp it and seek solutions.

Most SL users are on Firestorm and the nerdiest are on Alchemy, which is a great viewer as far as I can tell. If it didn't turn everything blue I might continue to use it.

But I verified for myself that on Firestorm and on Alchemy, "search/places" and "search/people" are NOT broken. On these third-party viewers, searches with exact terms return neat, clean, short lists of items with exactly those terms or close to them, as expected and as the case before it broke more than 2 weeks ago.

Meanwhile, on the regular viewer items that are not in search, old entries, entries not exactly the term, etc. are showing up, so that you get thousands.

This especially becomes a nuisance with names! 

I have finally after a number of rounds and sending screen shots have gotten the Lindens to accept this is an issue when I filed a ticket.

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10 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So search/places and search/people has been badly broken for more than TWO WEEKS now.

Why don't the Lindens feel any pressure to fix this?

BECAUSE IT IS NOT BROKEN ON FIRESTORM OR ALCHEMY AND POSSIBLY OTHER VIEWERS!

Therefore few people grasp it and seek solutions.

Most SL users are on Firestorm and the nerdiest are on Alchemy, which is a great viewer as far as I can tell. If it didn't turn everything blue I might continue to use it.

But I verified for myself that on Firestorm and on Alchemy, "search/places" and "search/people" are NOT broken. On these third-party viewers, searches with exact terms return neat, clean, short lists of items with exactly those terms or close to them, as expected and as the case before it broke more than 2 weeks ago.

Meanwhile, on the regular viewer items that are not in search, old entries, entries not exactly the term, etc. are showing up, so that you get thousands.

This especially becomes a nuisance with names! 

I have finally after a number of rounds and sending screen shots have gotten the Lindens to accept this is an issue when I filed a ticket.

I've actually noticed search isn't working the same on the website either.  I will search a specific name that I know isn't hidden and get tons of results yet no where is the name I am searching.  Why it works in some viewers and not the website is rather confusing to be honest.

ETA:  this was what I found when searching someone from another thread, name specific and under people search.  No where on the first page is their name.

Screenshot_20201229-180739.png

Edited by RowanMinx
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5 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

I've actually noticed search isn't working the same on the website either.  I will search a specific name that I know isn't hidden and get tons of results yet no where is the name I am searching.  Why it works in some viewers and not the website is rather confusing to be honest.

  1. Websearch within every viewer operates the exact same way as it uses the same web page as the external browser search through the Second Life web system
  2. The Search that currently functions "as expected" is the Legacy Search system that some TPVs have - that system uses a different API

Beyond that, we'll have to wait and see.

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2 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:
  1. Websearch within every viewer operates the exact same way as it uses the same web page as the external browser search through the Second Life web system
  2. The Search that currently functions "as expected" is the Legacy Search system that some TPVs have - that system uses a different API

Beyond that, we'll have to wait and see.

Yet the name showed up when someone used the firestorm search.  Very odd indeed.

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57 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:
1 hour ago, Solar Legion said:
  1. Websearch within every viewer operates the exact same way as it uses the same web page as the external browser search through the Second Life web system
  2. The Search that currently functions "as expected" is the Legacy Search system that some TPVs have - that system uses a different API

Beyond that, we'll have to wait and see.

Yet the name showed up when someone used the firestorm search.  Very odd indeed.

Ouch, my head! Both #1 and #2 cannot possibly be true (1. "every viewer" vs. 2. "as expected" - "some TPVs have - that system uses a different API").

Help!

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Visual aids for the above two posts of mine

Web Search:

Web Search

Legacy Search:1102731208_LegacySearch.png.72592ae2c56c33b5a0665291da498d7f.png

 

Intentionally left without a search request as the above's intention is only to show that the two are wholly different, even at the interface level.

Yes, the other tabs shown are also Legacy Search (Groups, Places, Land Sales, Events and Classifieds).

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1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Ouch, my head! Both #1 and #2 cannot possibly be true (1. "every viewer" vs. 2. "as expected" - "some TPVs have - that system uses a different API").

Help!

@Solar Legion already showed the two different versions, but I just wanted to add that some TPV's include a toolbar button for both types.  Kokua has a toolbar button labeled "Search" which is the legacy search (such as is used in Firestorm) and a toolbar button labeled "SL Search" which is the web search (such as is used in the LL viewer).   

They both have the same icon, however, and the default button layout had one in the bottom row and one on the side row, and it took me a bit to realize that they each were for a different version of the search, so I've since just kept the one visible on the toolbar that is my preferred way to search.  Though in a situation like this post, where I want to try out what's being described, it's helpful to have access to both in the same viewer.

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@Prokofy Neva

1. The 30L/week is not an ad. It is a fee to be included in search, but it's not an advertisement, and is not treated as one.

2. You can't pay the 30L weekly fee to be seen in Places, because Places isn't an option. Rentals is an option, but not Places.

3. You can't pay to be seen in search when a particular phrase is searched on. We are not offered that option.

Those are 3 mistakes that I found in your first 2 posts. You seem to have expectations that aren't offered. After that I saw that the thread is full of equally long posts by you, so I didn't read them. I think it's fair to say that what you are pointing out is actually contained in the first 2 posts.

I don't doubt that you have seen a change in the results, but I don't have anything to offer on that. I'm going to look into it though.

 

Edited by Phil Deakins
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4 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

@Prokofy Neva

1. The 30L/week is not an ad. It is a fee to be included in search, but it's not an advertisement, and is not treated as one.

2. You can't pay the 30L weekly fee to be seen in Places, because Places isn't an option. Rentals is an option, but not Places.

3. You can't pay to be seen in search when a particular phrase is searched on. We are not offered that option.

Those are 3 mistakes that I found in your first 2 posts. You seem to have expectations that aren't offered. After that I saw that the thread is full of equally long posts by you, so I didn't read them. I think it's fair to say that what you are pointing out is actually contained in the first 2 posts.

I don't doubt that you have seen a change in the results, but I don't have anything to offer on that. I'm going to look into it though.

 

I can't think of anything more absurd than claiming that paying $30 to appear in search is "not an ad". Of course it's an ad. It's a very cheap and limited one; it's not like a $10,000 classified ad but of course it's still an ad. Um, you pay for it. That's what advertisements ARE.

You are ignorant about how search works on the SL viewer and even the other viewers, it's amazing. You pay NOT to be in rentals, which is not even referenced here and is separate, but to be in Places. 

That's why it says "Show Place in Search $30" right on the "about land" menu. That's because you'll be looked for under Search/Places not "Search/Rentals" -- which requires you checking off the category on your land, a separate function completely.

Long before there was even the "rentals" category, this is how it worked, and it continues to work this way. How do I know? Because I look up my business name in Search/Places and (when not broken) it shows a list of the lots I have checked off and paid to be in search PLACES. If I were to do this search on the "rentals" tab it won't even show my lots PAID FOR for the most part in the top slots. I bother with Places. I don't bother with "Rentals" which is a morass and annoying to use.

I've made no claims whatsoever about buying key words or phrases, that is not even the discussion here.

Likely you never put your store in search/places which is why you didn't get visits.

I realize you are still pouting over the Lindens removal of traffic bots.

Um, it's not that I have "expectations that aren't offered". I'm describing HOW THE SL VIEWER IN FACT WORKED TWO WEEKS AGO, HOW IT IS BROKEN, AND HOW FIRESTORM AND ALCHEMY STILL WORK IN THE WAY EXPECTED, AS ALWAYS.

So you've made a series of ignorant statements here merely based on a reactionary and silly response to *my* statement. 

I don't have to prove anything here as it is visible to anyone who bothers to search normally on these viewers, and PS the Lindens acknowledged it and claim to be working on it. The end.

 

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