Group Owned Land - Ignore Landing Point Role Issues

[Markham Weatherwax]

For more than a few months now I have been seeing this same issue: Group owned Land with a Landing Point, Group Roles set to "ignore landing point", but the person ends up at the landing point when attempting to TP from the world map from outside the sim or via a Landmark despite them wearing the group and correct role title. Teleporting from within the sim to other group owned land positions/parcels, ignoring the landing point is not a problem.

I have noted that if a person is a Group Owner, they can TP from outside the sim to any point they want on group land,  but the lesser roles, they cannot. Even if someone is an Estate Manager for the entire sim, if they are not also a group owner of the group that that owns that group land they will end up at the set landing point.

I have tested this with the newest Second Life Viewer and Firestorm Viewer. Same thing. A group member with a non-owner role ends up at the group owned parcel landing point.

This was not an issue in the past. I've routinely set a landing point on a parcel, had separate Landmarks for different areas (On the ground and another in a skybox, for example), and group members wearing the group tag could bypass the landing point by using a LM or SLURL from outside the sim, while non-group members would end up at the landing point. 

Anyone have any information about how to get around this issue, or is it just something that is now the norm in SL?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

4 hours ago, Markham Weatherwax said:

This was not an issue in the past.

As we explored very recently in another thread, the conditions that appear to determine whether or not this works are so intricate that I'm not confident we've ever known when they worked in the past, if we've even discovered them all yet.

A parcel-related group ability similar to "ignore landing point" might be "landscaping using Linden plants" and (to work around an obscure SL bug) I have a  "planter" prim, owned by a group member, that rezzes Linden plants whenever its region restarts. Except it can't. It just sits there, trying unsuccessfully to rez those plants for days until that owner appears on the region so it can discover the owner has that ability so its calls to rez plant objects are permissible. The moment he appears, planting proceeds.

At least that specific ability has been like that a long time.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Qie Niangao
(add link to Linden grasses jira)

[Markham Weatherwax]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

As we explored very recently in another thread, the conditions that appear to determine whether or not this works are so intricate that I'm not confident we've ever known when they worked in the past, if we've even discovered them all yet.

A parcel-related group ability similar to "ignore landing point" might be "landscaping using Linden plants" and (to work around an obscure SL bug) I have a  "planter" prim, owned by a group member, that rezzes Linden plants whenever its region restarts. Except it can't. It just sits there, trying unsuccessfully to rez those plants for days until that owner appears on the region so it can discover the owner has that ability so its calls to rez plant objects are permissible. The moment he appears, planting proceeds.

At least that specific ability has been like that a long time.

Very interesting. I didn't view that thread because it looked like it related to orbs. The issue with the Linden plants, I've never seen that. But of course I don't use or allow the use of them on any of our lands. I have that disabled, but it comes at a slight cost: Not being able to rez onto the land from the library. Dunno what a lamp or a kiosk in the library has to do with "landscaping using Linden Plants", but apparently it does. *laughs*

I do know it that there was not an issue a few months ago, but suddenly my tenants could no longer TP from their created LMs to the rental properties without first getting set down onto the landing point set for that rental property. They did not have any issue with it before, and then one day, no luck. I had not changed the land, had not changed any role settings, or anything. It was just sudden.

I guess I will do a test to see if selecting other role abilities for officers might resolved this, one setting at time, as close to owner role status as I can. From what you say, I gather it can be something anomalous and seemingly unrelated to the ignore landing point setting. 

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Odaks]

17 hours ago, Markham Weatherwax said:

I do know it that there was not an issue a few months ago, but suddenly my tenants could no longer TP from their created LMs to the rental properties without first getting set down onto the landing point

This has definitely been the case for a while, and before the actual uplift to AWS (but possibly since preparitory changes were made?). My land-group set a Landing Point up around the the end of June 2020 and I'm pretty sure the Landing Point was grabbing group members on first arrival (with the group permissions set and the group active), back then. Being the first time that we have ever used a Landing Point, at first I accepted this as expected behaviour but, now that more behavoural issues have been revealed, it seems that this is not working as intended at all.

One thing that I have been able to confirm is that if your group role doesn't permit ignoring the Landing Point, you will get scooped up by the Landing Point on any attempt to TP to a personal landmark. That much, at least, seems to work as intended.

[Solar Legion]

.... The behavior being described has been the case for at least the last five years or so.

How do I know? I've had my parcel in a PE region for about that long and had a Landing Point set initially.

[MoiraKathleen]

4 hours ago, Odaks said:

if your group role doesn't permit ignoring the Landing Point, you will get scooped up by the Landing Point on any attempt to TP to a personal landmark. That much, at least, seems to work as intended.

I wonder if this is all that was intended by the setting in group roles to ignore the Landing Point - that it wasn't about allowing group members to initially TP in to any location, but only was intended to prevent those without the setting from being able to TP to any other location at all on the parcel.  Are we reading more into that role setting than was intended?  

4 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

... The behavior being described has been the case for at least the last five years or so.

I agree with the behavior being as described for a long time - I have never had it work other than the initial TP from off parcel resulting in first landing at the Landing Point, even with the group role to set to ignore landing point.  

 

[Ardy Lay]

This has been a thing for a long time.  If I am connected to the region, either as a Main Agent or a Child Agent, I seem to bypass the landing point on our group's parcels where the role I am in is allowed to bypass the landing point.  When I am not connected to the region and teleport to the same parcels, I do go to the landing point.  This has been so consistent that I have never questioned the behavior.

I would do some testing now but I cannot seem to load any group information at this time.

[Qie Niangao]

4 hours ago, Ardy Lay said:

If I am connected to the region, either as a Main Agent or a Child Agent...

Right, that's what it seems like, and it would make some sense for it to work that way, on the theory that teleporting can't wait as long as it may take to figure out if a new arrival (not currently region-connected) has that "ignore landing point" Group Ability. And yet...

• the teleportation logic does determine whether or not the new arrival is a group member. It enforces the group access whitelist restriction, whether or not the arrival has that group active at the time.

So maybe, once membership is already known, it takes too long to query for group Role. Except:

On 12/6/2020 at 12:23 PM, Markham Weatherwax said:

I have noted that if a person is a Group Owner, they can TP from outside the sim to any point they want on group land,  but the lesser roles, they cannot.

What's special about the "Owner" Role? It wouldn't be practical for the sim to store every land group's "Owners" because a group can have arbitrarily many of those (AFAIK) and they can change all the time. So while it's querying for an arrival's group membership it must be finding out whether they're in the Owner role. But it doesn't go the extra step to learn about Abilities in non-"Owner" Roles, until the arrival is connected to the region.

I'm sensing something pretty funky about how the Group data is structured and stored. Maybe that's not surprising at this point.

[Solar Legion]

Yeah, funnily enough what is being described with the Group Owner role .... is not something I have noticed behavior wise. Rather, wasn't when I used a Landing Point.

I - as Group Owner and Group Creator - could not circumvent the Landing Point from outside the Region.

In case it makes any difference: The parcel is Group Owned/Deeded, not simply set to the Group.

[Markham Weatherwax]

2 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Yeah, funnily enough what is being described with the Group Owner role .... is not something I have noticed behavior wise. Rather, wasn't when I used a Landing Point.

I - as Group Owner and Group Creator - could not circumvent the Landing Point from outside the Region.

In case it makes any difference: The parcel is Group Owned/Deeded, not simply set to the Group.

Hmm. I see that I wrote that part about roles incorrectly. What I intended to convey from our experience in our sims was that if a person is BOTH an Estate Manager of the sim and also the owner in the group that owns the land, they can TP in from outside the sim via the world map or a LM and it ignores the landing point. If however the person is not an owner in that group, being in an officer role, they get sent to the landing point;  If the person is only an owner of the group, not also an Estate Manager, they get sent to the Landing Point now. 

For example, I am an Estate Manager of a Sim and in the owner role of the land group that owns land in the sim. I routinely TP into the Sim from outside of it by using LMs, selecting locations and heights via the world map, and it allows me to bypass the set landing point for the group-owned parcel. Another person who is an Estate Manager of that sim, but who is in a lesser role (non-owner) of the group, they get sent to the landing point when TPing in from outside of the Sim. This was not an issue for that person before, but within the last 4-6 months or so, suddenly they are always sent to the landing points of group owned land. I however, can still TP in to anywhere in the sim, even when I am not wearing the correct group tag for the land. 

This is not mainland, it is a full private region, on the main server channel (and now the cloud). Some have said here that they've been experiencing this for 5 or more years, but I have no idea if that was on a RC or Magnum, or other Server Channel, or it relates to the age of the Sim. I can only example our experiences in our sims, and for us, this has not been an issue for my managers or tenants until this very year. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Solar Legion]

Server Channel has/had nothing to do with how the TP Routing permissions were affected (or not) by varied Group Roles and permissions.

The trick with Estate Managers and Groups is a bit ... convoluted to say the least.

[Sphynx Soleil]

Setting a home point in a location other than the landing point, and then "teleporting home" will bypass that still.