Respect for private property and privacy.

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So many people have responded so well to this, that it hardly feels necessary to add further practical advice. I'll just note that many of the sims that I visit that include both public and private areas feature a notification at the landing point that requests (generally politely) that visitors respect those areas clearly marked as "private." Well-informed visitors are much more likely to do this.

When visiting sims such as yours, and others I've mentioned, I have occasionally accidentally wandered on to a private parcel. Generally, I get a warning from a security orb, or some sort of pop-up asking me (often very politely) to leave -- and I do, as quickly as possible. It seems very likely to me, from what Theresa says above, that the greater number -- perhaps nearly all -- of those "trespassing" are simply not aware of the fact that they are somewhere they shouldn't be. And while there are always going to be those who don't care, and may even try to find ways to deliberately invade your privacy, I'm pretty sure that they are much in the minority. Treating everyone who wanders into a private area as though they were an uncaring idiot is not demonstrating a great deal of tolerance or understanding.

The flip side of expecting visitors to behave with respect is, perhaps, treating your visitors with a bit of respect? Your sim sounds and looks like a pretty one, and I might ordinarily find it worth a visit, but honestly, your approach to, and characterization of those who have "violated" -- quite possibly inadvertently -- your privacy is rather off-putting.

I think I'll avoid visiting a place where inadvertently wandering off the path leads to a ban, or being labelled a "moron."

When I had my homestead, I loved when people came by to wander around.  I even suggested it in my profile.  I did, however, parcel off my home so no one would accidently or on purpose, wander there.  I did also have a warning sign up Private Property.  Setting up so no one on the other parcel could see or hear into my section was enough.  This seems like the simplest solution to the problem.

I often found myself in private areas when I wandered and I'm certainly not a moron.

[Gatogateau]

Disclaimer: I have not read the whole thread, but I read some. I'm probably just repeating what others have said, and I am sure the OP got good, frank opinions based upon who I see posting (sincere not sarcasm.) What prompted me to reply is several things:

I am one of the first to admit to a lot of clueless people being morons and rude in SL, and so I initially thought the OP had a valid point.

I also know that "privacy" is a rarity in SL and can only be had in specific circumstances.

Then I saw the description, that it is an entire area set to public, for people to roam and enjoy. And then there is a designated area for privacy where "a fence was put." Dude. Really?

Hate to tell this to you but this isn't real life. A fence in SL is usually just a piece of decorative mesh. SL is also not The Sims, where sims can't figure out how to get over a fence.

It isn't the 500+ morons with the problem, it is you. 

I have been to so many places in my 11+ years where the whole place is open to the public, and there are complete homes set up and decorated, behind fences or not, that are ALSO for the public.

Use the land management too and set your private home to a parcel with separate settings ffs.

And as @Scylla Rhiadra said, thank you for flagging a place I will NOT be visiting, because normal wandering off the path leads to a ban and/or verbal abuse. Btw, another pro tip from someone who both visits and creates "sims", lay down all the pretty paths you want, that doesn't mean people will walk on them. I rarely follow paths when I explore. That's why when I create a place people can find little surprises tucked away in off-path areas.

[Miller Thor]

To clarify the topic of Orbs. We have aligned the orbs exactly on the lines of the houses just as patch linden demanded for the Linden Homes because we don't want to scare the people who happen to get lost by chance or e.b. with the snowboard or sleigh on the property. I am also concerned only with those who enter the buildings with full intent, although it is clear that someone lives there. I think that's just a naughty thing. Otherwise, we are happy about every guest who comes to us and are happy to be there for a conversation. We are also happy to accept suggestions from guests and try to implement them as best we can. You just have to talk to us. That is what we are there for. Well........... that after all in all 11 years as a region owner also a huge quantum of frustration creeps in i please forgive me. Just to make Gosau as real as possible were several thousand hours of work by our team behind it, which my wife and I are also very grateful for. We don't want to be destroyed or avoided by a few inappropriate lyristers.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Miller Thor

[ClariceRose]

I visited the sim, went skiing. It's so pretty, feels like RL winter. Great job.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Miller Thor said:

I think that's just a naughty thing.

Most of this kind of thing aren't really naughty, they are just judged to be that way.

"I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way." - Jessica Rabbit

[Miller Thor]

@ClariceRose : Thanks and that we want to keep alive also for the next 10 or 20 Years and due all 4 Seasons for our Tenants like Lisbeth you met at the Zwieselalm, as well as for our nice Guest. 

Only the bad ones must not come to us 😉 .

Edited December 1, 2020 by Miller Thor

[LittleMe Jewell]

As a few others have mentioned, given that there is a lot of PUBLIC area around, I would definitely encourage putting up a Private Property sign next to the private areas.

[Sassy Kenin]

15 minutes ago, Miller Thor said:

To clarify the topic of Orbs. We have aligned the orbs exactly on the lines of the houses just as patch linden demanded for the Linden Homes because we don't want to scare the people who happen to get lost by chance or e.b. with the snowboard or sleigh on the property. I am also concerned only with those who enter the buildings with full intent, although it is clear that someone lives there. I think that's just a naughty thing. Otherwise, we are happy about every guest who comes to us and are happy to be there for a conversation. We are also happy to accept suggestions from guests and try to implement them as best we can. You just have to talk to us. That is what we are there for. Well........... that after all in all 11 years as a region owner also a huge quantum of frustration creeps in i please forgive me. Just to make Gosau as real as possible were several thousand hours of work by our team behind it, which my wife and I are also very grateful for. We don't want to be destroyed or avoided by a few inappropriate lyristers.

Your giving mixed signals...You will need to turn off fly, post big signs stating rules for each area, add restrictions to parcel names, maybe have a bot give visitors different messages for each parcel they visit stating they are restricted or not. hard to have it both ways!

Build home in sky!..Alternative no one is allowed 1000 feet or higher...restrict with Orb..Get a landscaping unlimited Skybox/Sim Surround and have more room and reducing intrusions. just let visitors know who rezz in they are not allowed in sky and it is private residence. this is really the best balance between public and private areas..I pay several hundred dollars a month myself for my lands and this is how it has been compromised.

If you own a private region you can put in a ticket for a "water region" (They no longer advertise them but provide on request) $75 a month that has 1000 land impact, ten people..enough for a nice house and a few friends then have 100% privacy.

[Horus Salubrius]

7 minutes ago, Sassy Kenin said:

Your giving mixed signals...

I think it's just a rant.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

33 minutes ago, Miller Thor said:

Just to make Gosau as real as possible were several thousand hours of work by our team behind it, which my wife and I are also very grateful for.

I have enormous respect, admiration, and gratitude for those who, like yourself, have dedicated hours and hours of time, effort, and thought (not to mention cash) into creating beautiful or fun sims for the rest of us to enjoy. SL would be nowhere near as magical as it is without the contributions of people like you.

And I do get the frustration that you must feel on occasion. Your concerns about privacy are not mine -- I've never used ban lines or an orb around any property that I've owned, rented, or administered, including my own homes. But that's fine; I'm in no way judging you for your desire for some privacy. You absolutely have that right, within the constraints imposed by the platform itself.

I very much hope that you can find a way to balance protecting that privacy with a respectful attitude towards those who visit with good intentions, to share your love of places you've chosen to represent in your sim. I have the sense that this is what you want to do. Possibly paying some attention to some of the very good advice that has been given here will help you achieve that.

[Sassy Kenin]

6 minutes ago, Horus Salubrius said:

I think it's just a rant.

rant

/rant/

Learn to pronounce

 

verb

verb: rant; 3rd person present: rants; past tense: ranted; past participle: ranted; gerund or present participle: ranting

1. speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way.

   "she was still ranting on about the unfairness of it all"

   rant

   1 : to talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner

   2 : to scold vehemently

   transitive verb

   : to utter in a bombastic declamatory fashion

    

   Then it should be post here🤡😉

    

    

Edited December 1, 2020 by Sassy Kenin

[Roxy Couturier]

3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The region is full of public use buildings and items that look very similar to that house. The only indication I can see that it's private is a small sign in German that uses scripted letters, which means that each individual letter needs to be rezzed in separately and in a very heavily built-up region like that it takes quite a bit of time for them to be legible. There's no greeter telling rules, nor is there anything in the land description that indicates there's any private property - in fact, the description is completely filled with search terms that someone searching for public recreation would look for.

51 minutes ago, Miller Thor said:

I am also concerned only with those who enter the buildings with full intent, although it is clear that someone lives there. I think that's just a naughty thing. Otherwise, we are happy about every guest who comes to us and are happy to be there for a conversation. We are also happy to accept suggestions from guests and try to implement them as best we can.

 We don't want to be destroyed or avoided by a few inappropriate lyristers.

I don't speak (or read) German. Neither would I be arsed to even try and translate it as described. No Greeter bot means I can't copy/paste it into a web translator from chat. (Even if it were in German and not one that sends a message in the persons Viewers default language.)

From the photo you provided, there's nothing to my naked eye that says "Private". This isn't a 'naughty them' problem. It's a 'your methods aren't enough' problem.

You've gotten a LOT of good advice here and feedback of problem areas seen through another set of eyes. What would it hurt to give the simplest ones (a greeter and signs in several languages) a try and see if that improves your situation?

 

ETA: I forgot a quote. I wasn't replying to Theresa, I was jumping off from her post.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Roxy Couturier

[Cindy Evanier]

49 minutes ago, Miller Thor said:

although it is clear that someone lives there.

Can you explain what it is that makes it clear someone lives there?

[Maitimo]

From the picture, it's not immediately obvious to me that the house is private property. Fences and walls are often just part of the decor and in many places like yours they don't always mean anything. Take Calas Galadhon for example; the entire place is public, including the houses that look private. People may simply be assuming that your home is part of the sim decor.

There are a few options though, which don't involve ruining your scenery with giant "Private Property" signs.

1) Separate your home parcel from the rest and put up ban lines

2) Put up transparent but non-phantom walls all round your property, scripted to announce that it's private when anyone touches or bumps into them.

3) Use a security orb

4) Make the ground-level house public anyway and build a duplicate in a skybox

These measures will prevent accidental trespass, which I suspect most of it is, because it isn't really obvious enough that the house isn't simply decor.  However, if any of the trespassers are doing so deliberately and intentionally, already knowing that it's private, then only the security orb will work. Again, you'll need to set the house to a separate parcel from the public land, that way you can restrict the orb to parcel-only and with a decent amount of warning time (15 seconds would probably be enough) so it won't interfere with anyone sledging or riding past. 

[Luna Bliss]

56 minutes ago, Miller Thor said:

We don't want to be destroyed or avoided by a few inappropriate lyristers.

There's been lots of good advice here you can try out to see if it makes any difference. From what I've experienced via creating environments that are highly detailed and beautiful, and meant as a public park with private rentals within, there's one more piece of advice I can give. Sometimes renters expect too much -- they love the beautiful park experience open so all can enjoy, yet don't realize they simply can't have as much privacy in their own homes living in such areas. At times I succeeded in getting them to tone down their need for so much privacy, explaining it as a price they need to pay to live in such areas. But if privacy has become more important than a scenic sim they need to seek a living space more private that is less likely to be as beautiful. Let them see this choice instead of continuing to complain to you about the lack of privacy.

[Miller Thor]

@Scylla Rhiadra Thank you for all the suggestions that we will reconsider in the coming days and weeks, away from the skyboxes. What we will implement more quickly is the idea of warning. However, also back in our way by placing a watchdog instead of a prim or similar, which then strikes when someone has dared to cross the fence. We just take great care that everything we put up fits into the overall picture of the region and it will be difficult to use some standard SL products. This will probably mean that our construction team has to come back into play so that nothing disturbs the ambience. We just want to create a compromise for our tenants as well as for all the nice guests without destroying the townscape, and that would already cause ban fences.

Note: Why we have almost everything in German can also be explained from the overall picture. Gosau is located in Austria, where our language is German. If someone has a problem with something, they only need to ask one of the people present and are happy to receive information in English. So everyone has the opportunity to be informed and if there is not an answer immediately then the one away from SL is active in his real life. But no one is guilty of an answer, even if it becomes later.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Miller Thor

[Rowan Amore]

14 minutes ago, Miller Thor said:

@Scylla Rhiadra Thank you for all the suggestions that we will reconsider in the coming days and weeks, away from the skyboxes. What we will implement more quickly is the idea of warning. However, also back in our way by placing a watchdog instead of a prim or similar, which then strikes when someone has dared to cross the fence. We just take great care that everything we put up fits into the overall picture of the region and it will be difficult to use some standard SL products. This will probably mean that our construction team has to come back into play so that nothing disturbs the ambience. We just want to create a compromise for our tenants as well as for all the nice guests without destroying the townscape, and that would already cause ban fences.

Again, nothing will disturb anyone or anything if you make the private homes separate parcels accessed by group only.  No one needs to build anything.  No one needs to even put out a sign.  Easy peasy

 

[Blush Bravin]

6 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

Again, nothing will disturb anyone or anything if you make the private homes separate parcels accessed by group only.  No one needs to build anything.  No one needs to even put out a sign.  Easy peasy

 

The problem with making it group only is it destroys the ambiance of the build with ban lines clearly visible. For someone who clearly wants to maintain the beauty of the surroundings setting to group only is a poor solution. Using an orb is a much better option.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

The problem with making it group only is it destroys the ambiance of the build with ban lines clearly visible. For someone who clearly wants to maintain the beauty of the surroundings setting to group only is a poor solution. Using an orb is a much better option.

An orb with a 10 or 15 second delay is how I've seen this sort of situation most often handled. That's enough time for anyone to get out, especially if, like me, they've only just ventured onto the property.

Of course, there will be those who miss the warning because they're not paying attention (that's happened to me occasionally), or those who, like me, tend to immediately panic when they get the notification, and start running off in all directions at once. But my not infrequent descents into incompetence are on me, and not the landowner.

[Tari Landar]

43 minutes ago, Miller Thor said:

@Scylla Rhiadra Thank you for all the suggestions that we will reconsider in the coming days and weeks, away from the skyboxes. What we will implement more quickly is the idea of warning. However, also back in our way by placing a watchdog instead of a prim or similar, which then strikes when someone has dared to cross the fence. We just take great care that everything we put up fits into the overall picture of the region and it will be difficult to use some standard SL products. This will probably mean that our construction team has to come back into play so that nothing disturbs the ambience. We just want to create a compromise for our tenants as well as for all the nice guests without destroying the townscape, and that would already cause ban fences.

Note: Why we have almost everything in German can also be explained from the overall picture. Gosau is located in Austria, where our language is German. If someone has a problem with something, they only need to ask one of the people present and are happy to receive information in English. So everyone has the opportunity to be informed and if there is not an answer immediately then the one away from SL is active in his real life. But no one is guilty of an answer, even if it becomes later.

I'm going to be blunt here, because, frankly,  think sometimes it's needed. 

You're still not getting the point anyone is actually making.  Even in this reply above, you're blaming the guests for your lack of attention towards the actual problem. The actual problem is that you're not listening, and you're so focused on your tenants privacy that even you are actually ignoring the ambiance you've created. If you have had to ban that many people in all this time, simply for going inside a home, on the assumption that EVERYONE who enters the home has nefarious intent...it is not the people entering the home(s) that are the problem, but your methods of informing them why they should (can?) not.. You've already been given many great ideas, and the one(s) you're focused on involve creating drama around anyone entering the home(s). Yes, an attack dog, an orb that immediately bans or removes without warning, and quite a few other things, are, absolutely, drama creators, that's kind of the point of why most of them are created (and why on many regions, the no warning booters/banhammers are frowned upon). They are more likely to cause the very few who are entering the home(s) with nefarious intent to keep doing so, rather than informing the vast majority of guests why you'd appreciate they did not enter them.

If you're not willing to accommodate people with the language barrier, that's not on the shoulders of guests, that's on you. You are more likely to have non-German speakers than you are the opposite, that's simply by nature of who logs in to sl. Having someone present isn't going to help unless you have someone standing outside each and every building or area you don't want people to enter, to tell guests, in multiple languages, to please not enter. That's not remotely reasonable, so I would never suggest you do that (it's actually quite silly, but it would be required if you stuck with the "just ask someone" method). But how are your guests to know they need to go ask someone what a sign says? A sign that, btw, does not rez immediately for a lot of people, so even if they can read German, they still might not see it.

You have the sim set up to be welcoming to all, but expect that guests will simply KNOW, without you offering ANY information to them which lets them know, that certain parts are prohibited from exploring. That makes absolutely no sense at all, and it explains why your ban list is so large.

It sucks to put so much work into something that you love and have others try and ruin that experience for others, whether they are tenants or just guests. It's easy to get emotional over things we love, things we like, things we have put a lot into. I get that completely.  But the ranting and name calling is a bit much, really, and makes you seem like you're probably neither reasonable, nor nice. I am not saying you aren't, I am simply saying your words make you seem like this. I am sure you are a wonderful person, but your tone and approach here is definitely not. 

I've had sims that were public, but had some areas which were not public. Using the tools LL allows,, and some merchants sell in the case of non-land tools,  I was able to maintain the level of privacy needed for the non-public areas, without harming the ambiance of public areas, and I didn't have to use a jackhammer approach to do that. I didn't have to assume anyone who did manage getting into a private area was always there with ill-intent. In fact, I never assumed that. In the years that I had sims like this, my ban list never grew over 10, at its largest, and for the most part sat at 5 or less. 

You're using a jackhammer to fix a mouse problem and it's making your sim sound less and less appealing every time you respond with "we'll just attack anyone who enters our private areas that we refuse to indicate as actually being private, because people should just know they're private".  Save yourself some headaches, use a proper orb that offers not only a proper warning time, but also INFORMATION, appeal to your guests rather than attacking them, and keep the ambiance of the sim you've created. It's really not as difficult as it sounds, lol. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Tari Landar

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Horus Salubrius said:

I think it's just a rant.

JUST a rant? 

Was Shakespeare JUST a playwright?

Was James T. Kirk JUST a starship captain?

Is Second Life JUST a game?

Some rants are built on the backs of giants! Giants, I say!

[Kyrie Deka]

7 hours ago, Miller Thor said:

Second Life does not mean losing respect for private property. In my opinion, respect for private property and the right to privacy should be very much incorporated into the Community Standards and TOS of Linden Labs and specially emphasized.

I sympathize, I really do. Been there.

This used to just totally creep me out, folks showing up in the middle of me dressing, etc, in my own perceived "home".  I've left many a rental home where folks just kept popping-in - some silent, others just trawling you know not evil but creepy when you're standing there in something you feel you've "paid for" but they're watching you change clothes.  And let's not forget that some used to own that parcel and its an old landmark, some used to rent this home and ditto.  These aren't all rude users.  Just last week I got an ad for a sale with no link provided > found my favs to that shop > popped on the parcel to see the seller changed shops (since fav saved).  Could have been someone's "home" too, innocently enough.  However, I only got peace with this and no-more-creepies when finally I put a skybox on a parcel I owned, added a great old-timer security system in, and set the orb to allow a group I owned where I had a list of four "titles" including all those who might come to visit...  I suffered through the "privacy" creepies for many years, most of it likely not intentional evildoers likely, but the instant I did the skybox/orb/group thing, I have not had a single poof-of-problem, visitors come and go without any issue including my alts, and things run smooth as silk, no more creepies.  

To that end, I suspect that if one wants to stay-and-play they eventually get to their "cliff" moment and find their own way to put up boundaries, and it is a much-more manageable and timely resolution, than if left a user to reporting somewhere to LL who it becomes apparent seems unable to get to (or unwilling to find important enough) a list of queued items... I mean that not as a slam here, but more about the realities of timely, complete, controllable by the user management of privacy with what is actually available for "privacy" today.  And where there is a workaround like above that resolves the issue, if I were pushed to be asked, I might say "fix other broken things pleeeeease" instead of this.  Other things kick my "fun" in the heels much more than this, which I've managed to set-up and control instantly and completely.  And it would take some degree of set-up changes to take the TOS course.  Because by TOS I interpret your meaning it is hoped that LL enforces privacy "infractions" (rather than users)?

About the TOS mention, considering the currently options available without a complete system rebuild, if TOS "promised" this protection to users, this leads me to then ask:

How would LL take action in the current system, when one reports such a "no respect for private property" or "no respect for the right to privacy" in some dropdown somewhere - which LL action alleviates the problem via definition and quickly, while at the same time balancing other business needs (public pr, newbie interest to stay, "user friendly" enticement, etc.)?

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Kyrie Deka

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Kyrie Deka said:

How would LL take action in the current system, when one reports such a "no respect for private property" or "no respect for the right to privacy" in some dropdown somewhere - which LL action alleviates the problem via definition and quickly, while at the same time balancing other business needs (public pr, newbie interest to stay, "user friendly" enticement, etc.)?

Probably close the ticket with a note, "User needs to install Orb or turn on property lines.  Privacy concerns are a user self--generated issue."

[Ardy Lay]

Seasonal intrusions may be a sign the intruders are bored students looking for “fun”.  I suggest an educational adventure to get them out of the house they should not be in.  Use a scripted object to get a list of agents and compare their coordinates to those of the protected area.  If they are within the protected area then send them a dialog with localized text and a teleport link back to the unprotected area.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Ardy Lay

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

The problem with making it group only is it destroys the ambiance of the build with ban lines clearly visible. For someone who clearly wants to maintain the beauty of the surroundings setting to group only is a poor solution. Using an orb is a much better option.

True, I never think of that as I always have those shut off.  So I'll go back to separate parcels with an orb.