Why BOM? Why?

[Wulfie Reanimator]

10 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

I think that's a very bad idea to script BOM and will just lag things up again but I was fearing it would happen. [...]

But, the less lag IS the best part about BOM; take that away.......hmmmmmmmmm [...]

If you start putting that all BOM items in HUDS are you sure you aren't just creating another Hermitsville by bringing back the horrible lag, meaning here we go again with jellydolls and sucky events. [...]

You keep equating all "lag" the same and even mixing it with complexity. That's not how any of this works.

BOM reduces the amount of texture memory an avatar takes up. This improves everybody's framerate and makes your body textures load faster (since there are less of them).

Wearing a HUD -- or adding scripts to anything else you're wearing -- does not increase your complexity at all. Script-counts don't affect framerates, and the removal of onion layers (in almost all cases) outweighs the potential addition of a HUD on some people. It's a net positive regardless of future outcome. Your paranoia of HUDs is not completely unfounded but it's definitely exaggerated.

10 hours ago, AdminGirl said:

That's true, scripted objects do create lag, but doesn't a large inventory create problems or lag for the individual? Not for everyone else, but for all your stuff to load, it takes more resources no?

A large inventory (no matter how large) does not affect your framerate, movement, teleports, or how you interact with anything in-world.

The problem with large, flat inventories is the login process and opening your inventory for the first time. LL has told us that having tons of folders at the same level (especially the top level) will cause issues. The longer login times or inability to log in at all is one of them. Your viewer may also freeze for a second when you open the inventory window for the first time, but not after that.

10 hours ago, Ginger Cloud said:

I do love HD makeup but otherwise? BOM all the way.

Most heads use the entire LL head UV anyway, so there is no difference in texture resolution between appliers and BOM.

BOM has the benefit of combining an almost unlimited number of makeup options at literally zero performance/memory cost, and gets rid of alpha issues, so you only have everything to gain unless the head you're using has custom makeup UVs. (But at that point you're already in a niche product that can't even use Omega appliers, so none of this changes anything for you.)

Edited November 23, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Janet Voxel]

I wasn’t on board when it first came out, but that was mainly because the skin makers I liked weren’t doing it. As they adopted, I started dipping my toe in. I’m all in now! Much easier than I thought.

My only quibble is a lot of makeup creators don’t include a makeup guide. So putting on makeup is a nightmare because many label them lipstick 1, lipstick 2, etc. So I find myself putting the applier on as a guide to which makeup is which!

Edited November 23, 2020 by Janet Voxel
Autocorrect

[Drakonadrgora Darkfold]

3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And you'll find that they care as little about losing you as they care about losing me when they eliminate support for what I use.

Oh I'm very well aware of this. They really don't care at all who they might loose. They never did or ever will.

[AdminGirl]

@Wulfie Reanimator I've heard people link script count to lag, especially when it comes to sale events "remove your scripted attachments etc etc". Is that completely different to what you're talking about?

[Wulfie Reanimator]

17 minutes ago, AdminGirl said:

@Wulfie Reanimator I've heard people link script count to lag, especially when it comes to sale events "remove your scripted attachments etc etc". Is that completely different to what you're talking about?

Yes it is. There are 3 main types of lag. I'll simplify for the sake of brevity:

1. Framerate lag (what I call "performance")
   • This is affected by what you're seeing.
   • Affected by high resolution textures, mesh with lots of triangles, particles, etc.
   • More "lag" = Lower framerate, your screen becomes a slideshow.
2. Network lag (personal ping, texture/mesh/object loading)
   • This is affected by how much you're seeing.
   • Affected by lots of objects (regardless of what they are), textures (regardless of resolution), animations, sounds, etc.
   • More "lag" = Unstable connection (you might disconnect), unresponsive controls (can't move/click stuff)
3. Server lag (sim performance)
   • This is affected by what is happening.
   • Affected by teleports, avatar movement, physics, script count/activity, etc.
   • More "lag" = Slower sim, everybody and everything suffers.
     • Avatars can't move, scripts become slow (vendors/HUDs don't work), etc.

Scripts, by their nature of being able to affect the world what and how much we (or our viewer) sees, can also indirectly contribute to an individual's framerate and network lag, but it's not on the same level as how much they affect the sim itself. Your framerate (the main concern) is much much much more affected by other things.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Laurel Aurelia]

The other day a video was suggested to me on Youtube about lag. It's a couple months old, but very informative .

 

As for BOM, I was a very early adopter, and had experimented with it on their beta viewer the year prior. For me it's been a serious game changer as I am very particular about how my avatar looks. I don't really wear hd make up save for some pictures, but there is still an option to wear some appliers (makeup) even if you do have a BOM skin. Its just nice that my brows don't go missing when I wear a hair  that frames my face too closely.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Laurel Aurelia

[KjartanEno]

Applier bodies: Each mesh object can only have 8 faces, so there are only 8 alpha sections possible per mesh section. One can make an educated guess as to how many individual objects each mesh body has by the number of alpha cuts shown in the HUD for that body. That means additional scripting overhead too, since the body may also provide broader alpha settings in addition to individual sections, and there may be an automatic alpha system to help with alpha control. Who wants to set alphas every time one makes an outfit? I used to put bodies in folders based on outfits. That was a lot of extra body copies in my inventory. Body makers can only divide up a mesh in just so many ways in anticipation of possible clothing options. How many extra vertices are needed to account for all those cuts? Multiply that by three, since one needs a tattoo and 'clothing' layer as well.

BOM bodies: The system alpha mask reduces the need for alpha cuts. This results in fewer body sections, more optimized vertex placement, and simpler scripts. HUDs can be made simpler, thus taking up less texture memory, important if you don't have a high end graphics card. I am no fan of fancy HUDs cluttering up my view of the world, and with a BOM body there should be less need to even use the body's HUD in outfits. Going back to the system alpha mask, anyone can make them. I use GIMP and the free 1024 x 1024 SL UV textures from Robin Wood to 'connect the dots' while wearing a skin I made based on those same textures. Once I have my alpha mask textures, I upload them and create a system alpha mask, something anyone can create by right-clicking in the "Clothing" folder and creating a new alpha mask. Be kind and share your alpha masks with friends! Alpha masks make outfit creation a breeze. Need to take off shoes? Detach them and the alpha mask that goes with them. No need to open a HUD or save a body copy just to cover going barefoot. A few mesh body copies can cover a lot of outfits, resulting in less inventory clutter.

As an aside, adding and removing clothing items using RLV folders is now as easy as it was with the system avatar.

Edit: Oh and I just remembered one thing I did recently. I got an awesome system skin from Aeros. However, there were some details about it that didn't quite suit me and my mesh body, so I used some of my own textures to create a whole-body tattoo layer. Thus, I effectively 'modded' a system skin with a semi transparent 'skin' tattoo to give me exactly the look I want.

Edited November 23, 2020 by KjartanEno
more info

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

You keep equating all "lag" the same and even mixing it with complexity. That's not how any of this works.

BOM reduces the amount of texture memory an avatar takes up. This improves everybody's framerate and makes your body textures load faster (since there are less of them).

Wearing a HUD -- or adding scripts to anything else you're wearing -- does not increase your complexity at all. Script-counts don't affect framerates, and the removal of onion layers (in almost all cases) outweighs the potential addition of a HUD on some people. It's a net positive regardless of future outcome. Your paranoia of HUDs is not completely unfounded but it's definitely exaggerated.

11 hours ago, AdminGirl said:

First, sorry got AdminGirl's name in there; ignore that, this is my response to Wulfie.

I never said anything about complexity, ever.  

I've always said in every single one of my posts that BOM has improved my frame rate with a jump up to at least 12 more FPS, which is a lot I've also said.

Plus, I don't know what else you are saying in regards to "outweighs the potential addition of a HUD on some people".  What 'some people'?  

And, if it's not unfounded...the truth needs to be told about how much lag could ensue instead of the double talk, such as it will but...  

That's what it sounds like you are saying, it will, it may, we don't know, lol.  We don't need added lag unless you do know, not guessing games.  

Edited November 23, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Scylla Rhiadra]

42 minutes ago, KjartanEno said:

Going back to the system alpha mask, anyone can make them.

I personally find making alpha system layers annoying as hell . . . BUT Slink has developed this cool system that lets you adjust your alpha layers in-world, allowing you to adjust their coverage somewhat. It's far from perfect, but it really works pretty well. I wish other body makers would adopt something similar.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

12 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I never said anything about complexity, ever.  

You said "meaning here we go again with jellydolls" and jellydolls are a direct result of the complexity score.

Nothing about BOM or HUDs or scripts are going to increase the amount of jellydolls you'll encounter.

12 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Plus, I don't know what else you are saying in regards to "outweighs the potential addition of a HUD on some people".  What 'some people'?  

Maybe I worded it poorly, so to rephrase: "Some people would wear HUDs to swap their BOM layers. The removal of onion layers far outweighs that downside."

Edited November 23, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[FairreLilette]

6 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

You said "meaning here we go again with jellydolls" and jellydolls are a direct result of the complexity score.

13 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Oh, yeah...I had forgotten that's what that was for.  I was thinking of avatar imposters then.  I have been back on SL for three years and I have to have a lot of avatar imposters.  With BOM, I'm hoping that will reserve itself.  I remember being on SL and seeing every single avatar.  That was a great part of the fun of it.  Prior to BOM and going to the cloud, I pretty much only saw human mesh avatars in 2D photos.  

 

6 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Maybe I worded it poorly, so to rephrase: "Some people would wear HUDs to swap their BOM layers. The removal of onion layers far outweighs that downside."

Hmmmmmmmmm...although someone on Page 2 of this thread is saying something perhaps can be done for ease of use WITHOUT scripts.  I'm curious as to what she is saying about this without scripts thing - it's greek to me.  Maybe it's better what she is proposing.  

Edited November 23, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Wulfie Reanimator]

9 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Oh, yeah...I had forgotten that's what that was for.  I was thinking of avatar imposters then.  I have been back on SL for three years and I have to have a lot of avatar imposters.  With BOM, I'm hoping that will reserve itself.  I remember being on SL and seeing every single avatar.  That was a great part of the fun of it.  Prior to BOM and going to the cloud, I pretty only saw human mesh avatars in 2D photos.  

Avatar impostors are almost the same but slightly different from jellydolls.

Avatar impostors are what people get turned into if there are more avatars in your view than your viewer's maximum amount of non-impostor avatars. Regardless of complexity.

9 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Hmmmmmmmmm...although someone on Page 2 of this thread is saying something perhaps can be done for ease of use WITHOUT scripts.  I'm curious as to what she is saying about this without scripts thing - it's greek to me.  Maybe it's better what she is proposing.  

If you're talking about what @Rachel1206 said, that still involves a scripted HUD, just not necessarily in the target object itself.

[Ginger Cloud]

2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Most heads use the entire LL head UV anyway, so there is no difference in texture resolution between appliers and BOM.

HD appliers for Lelutka Evolution, Genus, or Catwa don't use the LL UV. They are higher resolution textures applied to their own layers over top of BOM. Yes, I know this adds to the texture memory used by my avatar.

https://cazimisl.com/2020/03/27/wtf-is-hd/

Edited November 23, 2020 by Ginger Cloud

[FairreLilette]

1 minute ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

If you're talking about what @Rachel1206 said, that still involves a scripted HUD, just not necessarily in the target object itself.

Yeah, the HUD has to be scripted but not the item.  That sounds better because in an item aren't you supposed to delete the script?

However, how will a scripted HUD for BOM effect the outfits feature?  

I wonder if people are thinking they don't want to use BOM because it's not as easy as push of a button like appliers.

Plus, are you absolutely sure it's just removing the onion layers that is helping SL to perform so much better and not the fact that we are wearing BOM items like what the system itself is set up for - such as body parts and tattoos being applied directly like how the system was built.

I don't know much about this stuff, so that's why I'm asking.  

[manoji Yachvili]

I'm lazy.. so I use HUD
I know is a pity because I have so many stuff and cute old skins that I could use with BOM..
Plus the first time I tried to use BOM I became RED!!!! 
and it took me a while for turn back to my natural skin colour... 
I know, I'm lazy, conservative and stupid.. but one day I will worn my adorable porcelain skin.. like a creepy doll 😎

[Orwar]

Just now, manoji Yachvili said:

like a creepy doll 😎

   I mean, now you made me curious. 

[Janet Voxel]

1 hour ago, KjartanEno said:

BOM bodies: The system alpha mask reduces the need for alpha cuts. This results in fewer body sections, more optimized vertex placement, and simpler scripts. HUDs can be made simpler, thus taking up less texture memory, important if you don't have a high end graphics card. I am no fan of fancy HUDs cluttering up my view of the world, and with a BOM body there should be less need to even use the body's HUD in outfits. Going back to the system alpha mask, anyone can make them. I use GIMP and the free 1024 x 1024 SL UV textures from Robin Wood to 'connect the dots' while wearing a skin I made based on those same textures. Once I have my alpha mask textures, I upload them and create a system alpha mask, something anyone can create by right-clicking in the "Clothing" folder and creating a new alpha mask. Be kind and share your alpha masks with friends! Alpha masks make outfit creation a breeze. Need to take off shoes? Detach them and the alpha mask that goes with them. No need to open a HUD or save a body copy just to cover going barefoot. A few mesh body copies can cover a lot of outfits, resulting in less inventory clutter.

 

Edit: Oh and I just remembered one thing I did recently. I got an awesome system skin from Aeros. However, there were some details about it that didn't quite suit me and my mesh body, so I used some of my own textures to create a whole-body tattoo layer. Thus, I effectively 'modded' a system skin with a semi transparent 'skin' tattoo to give me exactly the look I want.

I think the problem here is twofold: 1) A lot of people can't be bothered to make their own. That's just where we are at this stage of Second Life. 2) A lot of creators can't be bothered either. You'd think they would go the extra step of including an alpha with the clothing but most don't and that's probably because most major bodies still have a hud with alpha cuts. I watched someone in a group chat blow up last night about a particular body that doesn't have alpha cuts and they went on and on and on. Instead of sending the creator of the clothing a notecard asking for an alpha, they chose to rant about the body....which kind of isn't fair.

I'm enjoying it and don't mind making an alpha, the added bonus IS it makes skins a bit more moddable. Which is definitely a good thing, but see number 1. People just aren't into it like they used to be.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

3 minutes ago, Ginger Cloud said:

HD appliers for Lelutka Evolution, Genus, or Catwa don't use the LL UV. They are high def textures applied to their own layers over top of BOM. Yes, I know this adds to the texture memory used by my avatar.

I'm aware of Genus (one of my alts has Babyface), but if Catwa has started doing that's it's news to me. In any case, I'm not bothered by what an individual person chooses to do, more power to you. I only blame the collective for the widespread issues, and the solution is to just inform and educate people.

5 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Yeah, the HUD has to be scripted but not the item.  That sounds better because in an item aren't you supposed to delete the script?

However, how will a scripted HUD for BOM effect the outfits feature?  

I wonder if people are thinking they don't want to use BOM because it's not as easy as push of a button like appliers.

Plus, are you absolutely sure it's just removing the onion layers that is helping SL to perform so much better and not the fact that we are wearing BOM items like what the system itself is set up for - such as body parts and tattoos being applied directly like how the system was built.

I don't know much about this stuff, so that's why I'm asking.  

Deleting scripts from your attachments is not always viable if they rely on those scripts to actually function. If you don't care about whatever functionality it may have, go for it. I'm not just talking about texture changer scripts (I delete those whenever possible) but sometimes the attachment only has one script that does more than just change textures, and I don't want to lose the other features.

A scripted HUD to change your BOM layers wouldn't affect your saved outfits at all, unless it was poorly made. The HUD should do absolutely nothing unless you interact with it, and whatever BOM layer you're currently wearing gets saved into the outfit (and thus worn as normal) anyway.

Yes, simply getting rid of onion layers is a big deal. BOM is also big deal. They're both very good improvements for performance. Onion layers were bad not only because you were essentially wearing 2-3 times as many bodies as you actually needed and they were alpha-blending which is one of the worst framerate killers in SL.

7 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I mean, now you made me curious. 

[Orwar]

3 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

2) A lot of creators can't be bothered either.

   It's not particularly time-consuming or by any means difficult to create an alpha. If a creator 'can't be bothered', they should lose business out of it. A lot of creators were quick to pick up the habit again, as used to be standard before mesh bodies anyway. It's an L$10 upload, and it'll 1) make your customers happy and 2) avoid your customers being unhappy - people talk, and if a brand gets bad rep from enough people, it's going to start affecting sales.

3 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

 

[FairreLilette]

21 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Yes, simply getting rid of onion layers is a big deal. BOM is also big deal. They're both very good improvements for performance. Onion layers were bad not only because you were essentially wearing 2-3 times as many bodies as you actually needed and they were alpha-blending which is one of the worst framerate killers in SL.

Yes, I've stated from my first experiences with BOM about my improved computer performance.  But, if you don't go to busy places, it's not really needed.  It's at the busy events (music events) with my human avatar I have vastly better computer performance with BOM and I don't want to see that screwed up hastily because, if you can understand my hesitation to rush into anything here with scripts, you have to know it's often said that the user created content is not really built for SL and/or not optimized for the best use of SL itself but is geared more for profit.  And, pre-BOM, it was Hermitsville (make everyone an avatar imposter).  Well, actually I could view a couple of human avi's but that's not much compared to the way SL used to be where you could view every single avatar.  I just hope creator's know what they are doing before rushing into stuffs. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Ginger Cloud]

 

6 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I'm aware of Genus (one of my alts has Babyface), but if Catwa has started doing that's it's news to me. In any case, I'm not bothered by what an individual person chooses to do, more power to you. I only blame the collective for the widespread issues, and the solution is to just inform and educate people.

Fair enough. Just being a stickler for the sake of accuracy (I'm sure you can understand that) because HD appliers don't use the SLUV, and that's kinda the point of them, right?  Catwa introduced HD lips as a bolt-on item in Fall 2019 and added them to heads / huds in December 2019.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

BOM reduces the amount of texture memory an avatar takes up

BOM also eliminates the need for three mesh body layers (one for skin, one for make-up/tattoos, one for clothing textures.

Just check the edge of all current mesh bodies, that little shimmering light edge around each person. These are mesh layer upon mesh layer upon mesh layer. An average mesh bodies is three complete bodies on top of the systems body.

Unfortunately, most mesh body creators didn't really get the purpose for BOM, so now, almost everyone wears a mesh body that has BOM and three layers.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 minute ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

BOM also eliminates the need for three mesh body layers (one for skin, one for make-up/tattoos, one for clothing textures.

Just check the edge of all current mesh bodies, that little shimmering light edge around each person. These are mesh layer upon mesh layer upon mesh layer. An average mesh bodies is three complete bodies on top of the systems body.

Unfortunately, most mesh body creators didn't really get the purpose for BOM, so now, almost everyone wears a mesh body that has BOM and three layers.

45 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Yes, simply getting rid of onion layers is a big deal. BOM is also big deal. They're both very good improvements for performance. Onion layers were bad not only because you were essentially wearing 2-3 times as many bodies as you actually needed and they were alpha-blending which is one of the worst framerate killers in SL.

 

[Odaks]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that scripts get one of the last bites of the cherry when it comes to server usage. (I'm presuming that this hasn't changed because of the tweaks LL are having to do to uplift to AWS, of course.)

All of the serous stuff gets priority over scripts, which is why response to script commands gets delayed so badly when server loadings are high. Script execution just gets delayed and delayed until there is some server time available to run them. Generally speaking, the script is the victim, not the rogue?

[FairreLilette]

5 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

Unfortunately, most mesh body creators didn't really get the purpose for BOM, so now, almost everyone wears a mesh body that has BOM and three layers.

What does the above mean though?

Also, I had heard, in the rumor days pre-BOM and how BOM would be, that body parts would not come through the clothes anymore.  However, that has not happened say with pencil skirts or pencil dresses until this past weekend.

This past weekend, I was exploring and came upon a bed upstairs.  So, I lied on the bed and ran through the SINGLE animations for FEMALE and my avatar started kicking her legs in a kick motion in a pencil dress and there were no breakthrough of the legs in a pencil dress.  The other animations in a chair I tried at that sim I was exploring were great too...no break-through of legs through the pencil dress.  This dress is amazing me.  It's the only pencil dress I have where the legs DO NOT poke through.  I was wondering what she did right compared to the others.