Why are mesh products no mod?

[Gabriele Graves]

11 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

With redelivery now I dont see why they would need to bother the creator if and when they break an item. Ive broken many things. Which is why I keep the original box it came in. Just in case.

 

I always keep the original box as well.

Redelivery isn't the universally reliable thing that people think it is.  I have experienced the following on many occasions between different vendors at different times:

1.  Redelivery isn't working - annoying even if temporary.
2.  Products not appearing in redelivery.  I have had full purchases not turn up and the creator had to add it in for me.  Some creators have a policy of promotional or sales items not going into redelivery in any case.
3.  Redelivery system being retired whilst migrating to a new vendor.  Often the new vendor will not have the original items.  Some vendors run both systems for a period of time but when that time has run out, the redeliver for those items has gone forever.
4.  Many vendors still do not have any kind of redelivery system.

Really the only (mostly) universally reliable way to make sure you can always get a new copy is to stash the original box or box up the folder contents of the original purchase before you use the item(s) and stash that copy.  This is why I always prefer boxes to folders, your backup is already there.

Redelivery is at best, a best effort service.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

5 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

If they made it mod, you could export the mesh as a collada and take the credit if you tweaked it a bit. I think it does still serve a purpose, like if I were to give you edit rights to a certain photo. You could doctor it if you wanted to. So they are just protecting their butts, so that doesn't happen.

You can't export mesh just because it's modifiable... What on earth gave you that idea? Have you tried?

4 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I always keep the original box as well.

Redelivery isn't the universally reliable thing that people think it is.  I have experienced the following on many occasions between different vendors at different times:

1.  Redelivery isn't working - annoying even if temporary.
2.  Products not appearing in redelivery.  I have had full purchases not turn up and the creator had to add it in for me.  Some creators have a policy of promotional or sales items not going into redelivery in any case.
3.  Redelivery system being retired whilst migrating to a new vendor.  Often the new vendor will not have the original items.  Some vendors run both systems for a period of time but when that time has run out, the redeliver for those items has gone forever.
4.  Many vendors still do not have any kind of redelivery system.

Really the only (mostly) universally reliable way to make sure you can always get a new copy is to stash the original box or box up the folder contents of the original purchase before you use the item(s) and stash that copy.  This is why I always prefer boxes to folders, your backup is already there.

Redelivery is at best, a best effort service.

Marketplace has redelivery built-in, no need for any external systems. Doesn't apply for in-world purchases I guess.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Ultima Cloud]

 

2 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

You can't export mesh just because it's modifiable... What on earth gave you that idea? Have you tried?

Ya I can see why people get frustrated dealing with newer players. But this is why I dont sell things. If I did, I'd suck it up.

[Gabriele Graves]

4 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Marketplace has redelivery built-in, no need for any external systems. Doesn't apply for in-world purchases I guess.

Oh thanks I forgot MP.

5. MP vendors can choose not to enable redelivery, even for no transfer items.
6. MP is fairly often down as well.

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

6. MP is fairly often down as well.

These days it truly is hit or miss, it seems

[Ultima Cloud]

2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Oh thanks I forgot MP.

5. MP vendors can choose not to enable redelivery, even for no transfer items.
6. MP is fairly often down as well.

MP is also the worst form of shopping in SL. With 10year old listings. Vendors prioritizing old items on ad banner. And probably the worst search engine in the history of the internet.

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Ultimo Constantineau said:

MP is also the worst form of shopping in SL. With 10year old listings. Vendors prioritizing old items on ad banner. And probably the worst search engine in the history of the internet.

I totally agree that MP shopping sucks, however it is still faster to search for something specific there than it is to try to find something like that inworld.  As bad as it is, it is still the best we have for that.  Of course, I find it there and then go shopping inworld if they have a shop.  It's just the way I roll

[Wulfie Reanimator]

9 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Oh thanks I forgot MP.

5. MP vendors can choose not to enable redelivery, even for no transfer items.
6. MP is fairly often down as well.

I'm aware of #5 but it's enabled by default and if I bought something on MP without redelivery enabled (aside from some specific use-cases), that'd be a big no from me in the future regardless of the permissions.

#6 applies to every redelivery system, servers don't have 100% uptime. That doesn't mean the option is useless and I don't understand what your overall point is. "Redelivery isn't always reliable, so no-modify is justifiable so redelivery isn't needed?" Or are you just making the point that redelivery isn't always reliable? What do we infer from that?

Edited November 7, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Gabriele Graves]

Just now, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I'm aware of #5 but it's enabled by default and aside from a few specific use-cases, if I bought something on MP without redelivery enabled, that'd be a big no from me in the future.

Nevertheless, I have encountered many MP items with redelivery disabled (not no-copy items).

Just now, Wulfie Reanimator said:

#6 applies to every redelivery system, servers don't have 100% uptime. That doesn't mean the option is useless and I don't understand what your overall point is. "Redelivery isn't always reliable, so no-modify is justifiable so redelivery isn't needed?"

Not my point at all.  I don't think no-mod is justifiable at all, just the opposite, it isn't.

My point was simply that redelivery isn't as reliable as people think (I think I did say that, there was no hidden meaning) and that actually a saved box has more "uptime" overall.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

32 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

I think creators should learn how to manage and deal with new players if that is actually the case or honestly get out of the business of selling things.

Creators (I speak generally) like myself do an inordinate amount of customer support and help on learning SL.  Far often to bridge the gap in any onboarding help for new players.  New players are growth and the more the merrier!!  

If would be amazing if we could see more new user directed tutorials so users can discover the joy of modifying things in SL

 

 

[Ultima Cloud]

6 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Creators (I speak generally) like myself do an inordinate amount of customer support and help on learning SL.  Far often to bridge the gap in any onboarding help for new players.  New players are growth and the more the merrier!!  

If would be amazing if we could see more new user directed tutorials so users can discover the joy of modifying things in SL

 

 

Ya i feel like new players have it rough compared to when i first started. I think someone directed me to Bare Rose and I was good to go on my SL adventure. Now it's spend 3-5k on bod, spend 3-5k on a head. Figure out how to configure both. This before they've even decided whether or not they like the game lol.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Ultimo Constantineau

[Wulfie Reanimator]

5 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Creators (I speak generally) like myself do an inordinate amount of customer support and help on learning SL.  Far often to bridge the gap in any onboarding help for new players.  New players are growth and the more the merrier!!  

If would be amazing if we could see more new user directed tutorials so users can discover the joy of modifying things in SL

Builder's Brewery still has free scheduled classes.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

3 hours ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

I thought rezzables tend to be mod / copy (bar gacha).  I always do mod / copy so people can color or change textures to their hearts delight or reconfigure things.  I unwrap things specifically so customers can use any of their own textures to things like floors, walls etc and it will all align perfectly.

What is more noticeable these days is how many users in SL don’t know how to use the basic edit / build menu.   One reason (not that I agree with it) some creators may make complex scripted things non mod is to cut down on customers breaking stuff and needing significant support.  

I get at least two CSRs a day from customers who accidentally unlink a build so their doors don’t work, or they  make a ceiling purple or something in error etc.    Now we don’t mostly build in SL it has fast become a lost art on modifying items for users who purely “consume”.   

A few things I gotten had the mod/copy enabled.  But in the package was a no mod/copy item and the notecard said if you're new in SL, use that one until learn to edit.

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

Yes the discussion isn't about whether or not it is up to the creator. Of course it is. The discussion is about why they do it since it serves no purpose for mesh. And sorry if I don't feel that not  wanting to deal with customers as a legitimate reason.

The "why"...I think it comes down to money being a factor.  I searched and found an old thread on this from 2016, one creator said it was in part due to money.  As to additional reasons, I don't know as I think the main reason is to avoid having people buy just the white one and tinting it themselves, thus creator's lose money.  Why do you think many have no mod items?

Here is the thread and a quote:

"And lastly, it's about dollars. If I know I can sell a red version of this shirt, that's another product and future sales I can make. That's not to condemn designers who include colour or texture changing abilities; it just means they are using different sales tactics."

 

[Charlotte Bartlett]

11 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

A few things I gotten had the mod/copy enabled.  But in the package was a no mod/copy item and the notecard said if you're new in SL, use that one until learn to edit.

That’s a good idea.  Albeit perm setting in SL is one of the biggest headaches.  For copy items as they can Rez a million. Houses (if they had the land and allowance) I try to encourage customers to have a go on a copy to make mods to learn then just Rez another to reset it if needed.  
 

With firestorm now (for one linked piece) they just need to copy and paste the coordinates to realign the new copy to where the old one was, so no need to even adjust furniture etc.

[Paul Hexem]

5 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

If they made it mod, you could export the mesh as a collada and take the credit if you tweaked it a bit. I think it does still serve a purpose, like if I were to give you edit rights to a certain photo. You could doctor it if you wanted to. So they are just protecting their butts, so that doesn't happen.

This. This is why so many products are foolishly made no modify. Because people spread this fake news.

[Charlotte Bartlett]

3 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

This. This is why so many products are foolishly made no modify. Because people spread this fake news.

There is so much poor education around.  Some of it is quite understandable as it’s so hard to find the “right” information.   

[LittleMe Jewell]

I was actually thinking that most of the rezzable items - furniture and decorations - were modifiable.  However, I paid extra close attention to the sales this weekend and there really are a lot of creators that still sell those type of items as no-mod.  I likely never noticed before because the type or style of items from those creators hasn't interested me.

 

[animats]

"No user-serviceable parts inside."

It's an interesting question. I sell my escalators as no-mod because someone tried to resize one just a little, which broke it because the moving parts have to fit for it to work. Then they were unhappy. Then I had someone else who was unhappy because they wanted a mod version to re-texture, and I didn't want to bother with a custom job.

What do creators with complicated objects find works best?

Edited November 8, 2020 by animats

[Ultima Cloud]

11 minutes ago, animats said:

"No user-serviceable parts inside."

It's an interesting question. I sell my escalators as no-mod because someone tried to resize one just a little, which broke it because the moving parts have to fit for it to work. Then they were unhappy. Then I had someone else who was unhappy because they wanted a mod version to re-texture, and I didn't want to bother with a custom job.

What do creators with complicated objects find works best?

I am not sure what he'd get upset about if he can just unbox a new one. I am not sure if one instance of dealing with someone who apparently didn't know much about the game (new player likely) would make me want to change my permissions for everybody else.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

17 minutes ago, animats said:

"No user-serviceable parts inside."

It's an interesting question. I sell my escalators as no-mod because someone tried to resize one just a little, which broke it because the moving parts have to fit for it to work. Then they were unhappy. Then I had someone else who was unhappy because they wanted a mod version to re-texture, and I didn't want to bother with a custom job.

What do creators with complicated objects find works best?

Personally speaking, I don't mind if someone is unhappy with my product because it doesn't work after the user has edited it.

Either the edits they're doing is something I can't reasonably expect, or what they're trying to do is simply more complicated than what I intended (and I'm not obligated to fill their needs), or the product is actually flawed or poorly designed (and it's up to me to improve the product as a whole).

Could you clarify what you mean by "they wanted a mod version ... and I didn't want to do a custom job?"

It sounded like that other person was going to be the one doing the work, or did you mean changing the permissions? Sure, it can be tedious to re-perm an object (I often just can't be bothered to fill random requests while I'm in-world) but tedium aside, what reason was there for the object to be no-modify to begin with?

Edited November 8, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[animats]

3 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Personally speaking, I don't mind if someone is unhappy with my product because it doesn't work after the user has edited it.

Either the edits they're doing is something I can't reasonably expect, or what they're trying to do is simply more complicated than what I intended (and I'm not obligated to fill their needs), or the product is actually flawed or poorly designed (and it's up to me to improve the product as a whole).

Could you clarify what you mean by "they wanted a mod version ... and I didn't want to do a custom job?"

It sounded like that other person was going to be the one doing the work, or did you mean changing the permissions? Sure, it can be tedious to re-perm an object (I often just can't be bothered to fill random requests while I'm in-world) but tedium aside, what reason was there for the object to be no-modify to begin with?

Really, mostly tedium. There are 7 sizes and three packages, a new version is a pain to package, and I was off doing something else when their IM came in via email. I think you're right, though. I should make them mod, but put in the resizing checker.

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, animats said:

What do creators with complicated objects find works best?

Ages ago, I sold scripted attachments that relied on the geometry of the links. I made it no-mod. But I wasn't that good of a scripter then. Now, when I script such items for others, I do the (sometimes substantial) extra effort of having the script check and if necessary restore the item to a workable geometry either on demand or when it detects change of scale or linkage. If a necessary link was removed, the script fusses about what it can't find and shuts down.

With this approach, though, the scripter must really analyze the geometric dependencies among all the moving parts, and there's no way of proving to yourself you've handled them all. And it entails a non-trivial bit of script that must exist somewhere, either within the item (swelling script memory, at least) or possibly supplied separately in the box for on-demand restoral.

For one extreme example, I once did this for an intricate little pre-animesh music box with lots of moving parts. Realistically, I probably didn't manage to protect against every possible way it could be b0rked by an end-user, but if one ever managed to do that and somehow couldn't immediately get a redelivery and had to wait for customer service, you know, tough for them. None of this is mission-critical; in the end it's all a bunch of pixels anyway, so if the product's MTBF is about as long as the platform's likely survival, that's good enough for me.

[Gabriele Graves]

Personally, I think it is perfectly fine to put a notecard in the box that states "If you change this object and it breaks, you will have to unpack a copy.  Please keep a copy around in case this happens.".  Trying to cater for everything that could go wrong from modification via scripting doesn't seem like a reasonable strategy to me.  Trying to make sure your script and object keeps working under as many circumstances as possible when it hasn't been modified should be the main focus.

[Paul Hexem]

12 hours ago, animats said:

Really, mostly tedium. There are 7 sizes and three packages, a new version is a pain to package, and I was off doing something else when their IM came in via email. I think you're right, though. I should make them mod, but put in the resizing checker.

That's what I've started doing with my own stuff (the few things that this applies to, anyway). I make it mod, then have the script throw messages out if it's modified in such a way that'll break it.