Why are mesh products no mod?

[FairreLilette]

9 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

Just because a hud allows me to change color textures or color tints does not make the item mod.

 

Yes, the permissions to YOU, the owner, to modify an object, have to be MOD.  There is a way to make it read copy only though. 

The item absolutely has to be mod for a HUD to work to modify an item period. 

This does not make it full mod to you however but only through the HUD because the creator has blocked off allowing you access to the texture area plus other things.

Edited November 7, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

3 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

One reply I got from a well known creator when I asked for mod version to change the partial transparency of part of the outfit that was clashing with my hair and which I didn't really want that part partially transparent was along the lines of "This is my art and my vision, I don't want people misrepresenting my art by wearing altered copies".

I don't believe I have bought from them since.

If I got that from the creator I'd kindly tell him/her I won't be buying future products from them and let others know too.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

Yes, the permissions to YOU, the owner, to modify an object, have to be MOD.  There is a way to make it read copy only though. 

The item absolutely has to be mod for a HUD to work to modify an item period. 

This does not make it full mod to you however but only through the HUD because the creator has blocked off allowing you access to the texture area plus other things.

No, you don't need to have "modify" permission in order for a HUD to work. If the object contains a script, the permissions on that object don't affect it.

Basically, an object can always modify itself.

[Qie Niangao]

If it's all about creators' phobia of tinting, why are fatpacks no-mod?

I've heard several reasons for no-mod mesh items:

• The "creator" is reselling a template that has a no-mod restriction on sale of derived products. I checked and that's actually true of some templates; I have no idea why.
• The creator includes resizing or retexturing scripts that they believe restrict the product to no-mod. (They're probably mistaken. I investigated the most popular scripts used in these no-mod products, and there was no such restriction on the licensing. Also, those scripts are not so primitive as to leak texture UUIDs as some others might.)
• The creator despises their customers so much that they can't bear the thought of customers tweaking materials to better match an outfit, or adding a script, or any of the myriad other reasons mod permission is so valuable.

Honestly, though, I think the most common reason so many creators do it is because they, too, can't figure out why so many creators do it, but so many creators do it so there must be reasons. Superstition is contagious.

In passing, I've noticed that clothing aimed for the role-play market seems much more likely to be mod-perm. I get the impression that those creators need to cater to more sophisticated buyers who just won't put up with no-mod stuff frustrating their ability to use it as they please - and the very real possibility those buyers will just make a better version themselves if it's going to be that much bother.

[Chaser Zaks]

The same reason uneducated creators:

• Pushed for [REDACTED] to be removed as a feature
• Put their appliers behind pay walls
• Add "encryption" to appliers
• Think appliers are easier than adding textures via the build floater
• Create creator exclusive programs where only the elite can create skins for their products
• Add a script that deletes the product if you rez it on the ground
• Refuse to provide demos
• I could keep going on and on, but you get the point

That reason: False sense of security. These are the same people who believe that clearing the cache is the answer to every problem, and that "you need to use x viewer for my product to work!" or "you need to set your LOD to 4, 5, maybe even 6 for my product to work!". Despite the many pleas from people who know what they are doing, how the viewer works, and how Second Life works, they live in their little bubble of "I know more than the people who make Second Life work!", and then scream at you when you explain how stuff really works saying "WELL NOW EVERYONE KNOWS HOW TO COPYBOT MY STUFF MUTED AND BANNED!".

My advice: Do not buy from these people, if they refuse to listen or understand the basics of how stuff works, they are not worth paying money to and dealing with their broken products. Paying them only encourages them to be ignorant.

Just to upset said people, here is the truth to each thing I said above:

• Pushed for [REDACTED] to be removed as a feature
  • Their reasoning: People will steal textures.
  • The truth: People who want to steal textures will just use a copybot viewer to do that, not [REDACTED] which results in very bad blurry images.
• Put their appliers behind pay walls
  • their reasoning: It prevents people from making illegal skins
  • the truth: It stops people from making any skins, and also greed
• Adding encryption to appliers
  • Their reasoning: It stops people from seeing UUIDs
  • The truth: Encryption is a waste of time, not only is the channel already going to be unknown, but as soon as the viewer sees the texture, people with copybot viewers can see the UUID. Most "encryptions" use XOR which is notoriously easy to break. I even have a tool specifically for breaking XOR encryptions.
• Think appliers are easier than adding textures via the build floater
  • Their reasoning: it is easier.
  • The truth: Not always, if I have to rez out an applier each time I want to change the texture, especially if I am using local textures while editing, it most certainly is not easier.
• Creator exclusive programs
  • Their reasoning: Ensures that people who copybot stuff won't be able to sell copybot stuff.
  • The truth: Ensures that people who want to make stuff won't be able to make stuff, and also greed.
• Add a script that deletes the product if you rez it on the ground
  • Their reasoning: If something is rezzed on the ground, it is easier to copybot.
  • The truth: If something is visible to the viewer, be it rezzed, worn, or even attached to the hud, a copybot viewer can copy it.
• Refuse to provide demos
  • Their reasoning: People will copybot the demo.
  • The truth: People won't buy their product.
• And the magnum opus: No mod on products
  • Their reasoning: No mod makes it so that people can't copybot it.
  • The truth: If the viewer sees it, a copybot can grab it. No mod is only used as a greed tactic to control who makes stuff for their product. Even if it is rigged mesh, I still like to be able to use custom textures or adjust the color to match my avatar better. Maybe I want to put a script in it so that I can automatically adjust it depending on what I am wearing. NO MOD ONLY MAKES SENSE in a few scenarios, such as if you are using no-mod on a demo, sometimes gachas, redemption tokens/some sort of thing that can activate or buy a product, or trying to prevent people from cheating in a game. No mod is a plague upon Second Life.

tl;dr: Dumb people who think they are smart but are actually dumb and refuse to learn. If said people get offended by this, sorry, not sorry. When you decide to learn and stop being hostile towards others, I'll be nice back.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Chaser Zaks

[Zi Ree]

I agree with pretty much every single point in Chaser's post. Well summarized.

[Ultima Cloud]

1 hour ago, Chaser Zaks said:

 

• And the magnum opus: No mod on products
  • Their reasoning: No mod makes it so that people can't copybot it.
  • The truth: If the viewer sees it, a copybot can grab it. No mod is only used as a greed tactic to control who makes stuff for their product. Even if it is rigged mesh, I still like to be able to use custom textures or adjust the color to match my avatar better. Maybe I want to put a script in it so that I can automatically adjust it depending on what I am wearing. NO MOD ONLY MAKES SENSE in a few scenarios, such as if you are using no-mod on a demo, sometimes gachas, redemption tokens/some sort of thing that can activate or buy a product, or trying to prevent people from cheating in a game. No mod is a plague upon Second Life.

tl;dr: Dumb people who think they are smart but are actually dumb and refuse to learn. If said people get offended by this, sorry, not sorry. When you decide to learn and stop being hostile towards others, I'll be nice back.

copybots are also pretty crap at copying mesh that aren't a basic shape. So the paranoia is pretty unfounded. Its quite possible someone didn't copy their stuff. They just used the same template as you or the same cgtrader. Or maybe your idea wasn't all that original to begin with.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Ultimo Constantineau

[FairreLilette]

9 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

No, you don't need to have "modify" permission in order for a HUD to work. If the object contains a script, the permissions on that object don't affect it.

Basically, an object can always modify itself.

I will have to test this with an alt because I already did test it with an alt and it doesn't mod if I am the owner and the object has no mod permissions to me.  So, this is news to me.  I'm going to have to test it myself, again.

EDIT:  So, basically, with what you are saying here, this is how griefers operate in SL.  They don't have permission to mod, yet the griefers can and do modify objects that aren't theirs. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Wulfie Reanimator]

47 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I will have to test this with an alt because I already did test it with an alt and it doesn't mod if I am the owner and the object has no mod permissions to me.  So, this is news to me.  I'm going to have to test it myself, again.

EDIT:  So, basically, with what you are saying here, this is how griefers operate in SL.  They don't have permission to mod, yet the griefers can and do modify objects that aren't theirs. 

I don't even know what the griefer thing means because there are so many different ways to mess with people.

You can't modify something you don't own unless that thing is scripted to make changes to itself based on outside forces. (chat messages, usually)

Even then, those "outside forces" can be limited only to the current owner of that object, like most clothing/attachment HUDs work. (So that I can't walk into a club with my HUDs and click buttons to mess up everybody else's clothes.) Poorly scripted clothes might listen to others, but that's the creator's fault. I could come inworld to explain.

2 hours ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

copybots are also pretty crap at copying mesh that aren't a basic shape.

Not true.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[FairreLilette]

8 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

You can't modify something you don't own unless that thing is scripted to make changes to itself based on outside forces. (chat messages, usually)

Okay, off the griefing thing for a while here.  

But, let me use this example.  I sell a bathtub with hide and show water script.  The water hides with the command /4 HIDE.  Now anyone can type in nearby chat /4 HIDE and the water will hide?  I never realized that.  I thought miraculously the command has to come from the owner of the hide/show water. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Wulfie Reanimator]

4 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Okay, off the griefing thing for a while here.  

But, let me use this example.  I sell a bathtub with hide and show water script.  The water hides with the command /4 HIDE.  Now anyone can type in nearby chat /4 HIDE and the water will hide?  I never realized that.  I thought miraculously the command has to come from the owner of the hide/show water. 

That's right, if you haven't specifically filtered out other people, anybody can use the command.

[FairreLilette]

22 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

That's right, if you haven't specifically filtered out other people, anybody can use the command.

Oh okay, got it...you have to specify to the script whether owner only or not.  Got it.

To the OP...as far as why most clothing is no mod...it is what it is.  There have been several threads about the no mod thing and it's not up to us how a creator permissions their items and I don't think most creator's who are no mod are going to change any time soon. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Charlotte Bartlett]

I thought rezzables tend to be mod / copy (bar gacha).  I always do mod / copy so people can color or change textures to their hearts delight or reconfigure things.  I unwrap things specifically so customers can use any of their own textures to things like floors, walls etc and it will all align perfectly.

What is more noticeable these days is how many users in SL don’t know how to use the basic edit / build menu.   One reason (not that I agree with it) some creators may make complex scripted things non mod is to cut down on customers breaking stuff and needing significant support.  

I get at least two CSRs a day from customers who accidentally unlink a build so their doors don’t work, or they  make a ceiling purple or something in error etc.    Now we don’t mostly build in SL it has fast become a lost art on modifying items for users who purely “consume”.   

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

What is more noticeable these days is how many users in SL don’t know how to use the basic edit / build menu.   One reason (not that I agree with it) some creators may make complex scripted things non mod is to cut down on customers breaking stuff and needing significant support.  

I think this really is a lot of it.  Before mesh, I think a larger number of SL users at least tinkered with building, so they understood the basics of editing something.  Mesh put an end to much of the "tinkering" that happened.

I can somewhat understand and sympathize with creators that have to deal with customers constantly messing up products and not making a copy first, but I still will usually not buy something rezzable if it is not modifiable.   

I can only assume that the no-mod creators sell enough to justify their settings to themselves.

[Ultima Cloud]

7 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I think this really is a lot of it.  Before mesh, I think a larger number of SL users at least tinkered with building, so they understood the basics of editing something.  Mesh put an end to much of the "tinkering" that happened.

I can somewhat understand and sympathize with creators that have to deal with customers constantly messing up products and not making a copy first, but I still will usually not buy something rezzable if it is not modifiable.   

I can only assume that the no-mod creators sell enough to justify their settings to themselves.

With redelivery now I dont see why they would need to bother the creator if and when they break an item. Ive broken many things. Which is why I keep the original box it came in. Just in case.

As someone who mods and builds things for the past 14 years in SL. There's literally no justification for no-modding mesh.

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Ultimo Constantineau

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

One reason (not that I agree with it) some creators may make complex scripted things non mod is to cut down on customers breaking stuff and needing significant support.  

I get at least two CSRs a day from customers who accidentally unlink a build so their doors don’t work, or they  make a ceiling purple or something in error etc.    Now we don’t mostly build in SL it has fast become a lost art on modifying items for users who purely “consume”.   

4 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I can somewhat understand and sympathize with creators that have to deal with customers constantly messing up products and not making a copy first

All of the "customer service" in this case just comes down to customer self-service. You tell them how to get a redelivery and that's it. Spending time trying to fix their broken product is folly, unless it's a problem the creator themselves has caused.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Sammy Huntsman]

Depends on the type of mesh, if it's rigged to a certain body or head then yeah I can see why it is not modifiable. The creator took the extra time to take the hassle out of you doing it. But if it's not rigged, it is usually modifiable.

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

9 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

With redelivery now I dont see why they would need to bother the creator if and when they break an item. Ive broken many things. Which is why I keep the original box it came in. Just in case.

As someone who mods and builds things for the past 14 years in SL. There's literally no justification for no-modding mesh.

 

Based on questions here in the forums and comments in groups, there are so many people these days that do not know about redelivery until they are told.

 

9 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

All of the "customer service" in this case just comes down to customer self-service. You tell them how to get a redelivery and that's it. Spending time trying to fix their broken product is folly, unless it's a problem the creator themselves has caused.

There are some creators though that want to take the time to help a customer figure out how to mod something, even if it is a frustrating process.

[Ultima Cloud]

1 minute ago, halebore Aeon said:

Depends on the type of mesh, if it's rigged to a certain body or head then yeah I can see why it is not modifiable. The creator took the extra time to take the hassle out of you doing it. But if it's not rigged, it is usually modifiable.

 

Rigged and No rig have nothing to do with mod.

[Ultima Cloud]

1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Based on questions here in the forums and comments in groups, there are so many people these days that do not know about redelivery until they are told.

 

There are some creators though that want to take the time to help a customer figure out how to mod something, even if it is a frustrating process.

I think creators should learn how to manage and deal with new players if that is actually the case or honestly get out of the business of selling things.

[Sammy Huntsman]

3 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

Rigged and No rig have nothing to do with mod.

I mean it is entirely up to the creator and also you are not entitled to a fully modifiable  mesh if the creator deems it so.

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by halebore Aeon

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

There are some creators though that want to take the time to help a customer figure out how to mod something, even if it is a frustrating process.

Trust me I know. I do the exact same thing, here on the forum and in-world.

But wanting to do that when it's not necessary is different. If you choose that you want to provide customer service, that doesn't justify removing features once you get fed up with it. (Remember, the original claim was that "no-mod is used because people don't want to deal with customer service.")

[Ultima Cloud]

3 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

I mean it is entirely up to the creator and also you are not entitled to a fully modifiable rigged mesh if the creator deems it so.

 

Yes the discussion isn't about whether or not it is up to the creator. Of course it is. The discussion is about why they do it since it serves no purpose for mesh. And sorry if I don't feel that not  wanting to deal with customers as a legitimate reason. That just shows lack of temperament.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Ultimo Constantineau

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Ultimo Constantineau said:

Yes the discussion isn't about whether or not it is up to the creator. Of course it is. The discussion is about why they do it since it serves no purpose for mesh.

If they made it mod, you could export the mesh as a collada and take the credit if you tweaked it a bit. I think it does still serve a purpose, like if I were to give you edit rights to a certain photo. You could doctor it if you wanted to. So they are just protecting their butts, so that doesn't happen.

[Ultima Cloud]

1 minute ago, halebore Aeon said:

If they made it mod, you could export the mesh as a collada and take the credit if you tweaked it a bit. I think it does still serve a purpose, like if I were to give you edit rights to a certain photo. You could doctor it if you wanted to. So they are just protecting their butts, so that doesn't happen.

No actually u cannot export a collada unless you are the creator or are using a copybot viewer.