Premium, Premium Plus - are we on the way to premium accounts for all?

[Doc Carling]

And if yes, will Second Life survive the end of free accounts? As for me, I don't mind a forced premium account for all. I'm willing to pay that. But In my opinion they had to reform the land business then. Paying costly Premium programs AND high rents for an average piece of land at the same time, that's not affordable for many.

 

[Chic Aeon]

According to Inara in a post yesterday, Premium Plus is on the back burner (from Linden public meetings).   I see no reason that The Lab would decide everyone needs to be premium. There are tons of non-premium popular creators and not all are willing (or can for one reason or another ) be premium.  They support second life as well as many of the premium folks who basically just dance and party (and likely have sex :D).   Would be really stupid of them to make that move. They aren't always right, but they are not stupid.  

 

So that's my input.  

[FairreLilette]

7 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

And if yes, will Second Life survive the end of free accounts? As for me, I don't mind a forced premium account for all. I'm willing to pay that. But In my opinion they had to reform the land business then. Paying costly Premium programs AND high rents for an average piece of land at the same time, that's not affordable for many.

 

Doc, I wrote in the other thread about this.  To put it simply, because I have to go rl, I may have a free account but I am hardly a free SLifer, having at least $500 dollars worth of textures alone for this one account with plans to buy more textures.  I've also spent tons of money on uploads and clothes and all kinds of things.

I don't think paying for a premium is really the problem.  The problem is SL is basically considered too difficult for the average user in that it has a high learning curve.  People play the simple Roblox stuff or other stuff on their phone now too which SL is not designed to run nor build in a healthy manner on a phone.  

Plus, Discord is a thing now.  It's good the Firestorm viewer has a link for Discord.  The younger crowd wants more voice.  

Edited October 14, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Arielle Popstar]

I don't get the thinking that just because one spends a pile of money on the Marketplace that it somehow supports the LL infrastructure.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Arielle Popstar

[FairreLilette]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I don't get the thinking that just because one spend a pile of money on the Marketplace that it somehow supports the LL infrastructure.

They make 10% off MP purchases PLUS texture places have inworld stores - Kushi textures being a favorite of mine and she has an inworld discount.

Spending is spending is spending is spending.  It's how an economy works.  We survive on spending, then one gets money and spends and so on and so on and so on.

I'm not getting your point, however, as a premium account isn't very much money.   I've spent thousands of times that amount.   

[Doc Carling]

14 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Doc, I wrote in the other thread about this.  To put it simply, because I have to go rl, I may have a free account but I am hardly a free SLifer, having at least $500 dollars worth of textures alone for this one account with plans to buy more textures.  I've also spent tons of money on uploads and clothes and all kinds of things.

I don't think paying for a premium is really the problem.  The problem is SL is basically considered too difficult for the average user in that it has a high learning curve.  People play the simple Roblox stuff or other stuff on their phone now too which SL is not designed to run nor build in a healthy manner on a phone.  

Plus, Discord is a thing now.  It's good the Firestorm viewer has a link for Discord.  The younger crowd wants more voice.  

Thank you. I noticed and replied. What you said about the difficulty and the high learning curve, I can only agree. But then, Linden is not blind. The guys must know that as good as we do. And still they add feature by feature. What is the plan behind?

[Arielle Popstar]

6 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

They make 10% off MP purchases PLUS texture places have inworld stores 

That would likely just pay for the MP servers and maybe money services.

[FairreLilette]

2 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

Thank you. I noticed and replied. What you said about the difficulty and the high learning curve, I can only agree. But then, Linden is not blind. The guys must know that as good as we do. And still they add feature by feature. What is the plan behind?

Many residents in many threads have suggested "how to make a mesh avatar" class as a possibility and other residents may have an answer for you as I think there might be something at a place called Cambridge maybe.  I'm pressed for time, but one thing you can do is find about when the Townhall Meetings are with the Lindens and go to one and ask.  

[Doc Carling]

31 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

According to Inara in a post yesterday, Premium Plus is on the back burner (from Linden public meetings).   I see no reason that The Lab would decide everyone needs to be premium. There are tons of non-premium popular creators and not all are willing (or can for one reason or another ) be premium.  They support second life as well as many of the premium folks who basically just dance and party (and likely have sex :D).   Would be really stupid of them to make that move. They aren't always right, but they are not stupid.  

 

So that's my input.  

From a commercial standpoint the free players which never spend a cent of their own money in SL must be a thorn in Lindens eyes. I guess you remember that they years ago tried to remove the freebies from the market. And many merchants even agreed to that.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Doc Carling

[Doc Carling]

2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Many residents in many threads have suggested "how to make a mesh avatar" class as a possibility and other residents may have an answer for you as I think there might be something at a place called Cambridge maybe.  I'm pressed for time, but one thing you can do is find about when the Townhall Meetings are with the Lindens and go to one and ask.  

That was a rhetorical question. 😊 Apart from that I think what they tell us and what they actually do might be not the same. But that's how business works.

[FairreLilette]

8 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

That was a rhetorical question. 😊 Apart from that I think what they tell us and what they actually do might be not the same. But that's how business works.

Yep.  But, some good things have come out of those Townhall Meetings.  Just a suggestion as you never know...you could get a line or you could get some good answers.  

As far as freebies on the Marketplace, well they could put in a system that will only accept 0 for demos and at minimum 99 lindens or above for the rest.  So nothing 1 to 98 lindens could be placed then.  LOL  

[Doc Carling]

11 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

As far as freebies on the Marketplace, well they could put in a system that will only accept 0 for demos and at minimum 99 lindens or above for the rest.  So nothing 1 to 98 lindens could be placed then.  LOL  

Say that loud and you land on a stake. lol And what if people offer freebies declared as demos? But in general I'm also for a minium price on the market. In their inworld shops merchants could still offer for lower prices or even freebies. Their shops would get more traffic then. For me more annoying than freebies are the land prices. I pay about 50 USD monthly for just 8000 sqm.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Doc Carling

[FairreLilette]

35 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

That would likely just pay for the MP servers and maybe money services.

Oh, wait, they make a whole lot more than 10%.  I forgot about all the advertising fees.  It costs 799 lindens to advertise or promote one time per week.  So they make a lot on advertising fees.  

[Bree Giffen]

Subscriptions to games only work with a large player base and many multiplayer games have gone from a subscriber system to free-to-play. SL isn’t like most games. Free players can still create and consume content. Free players can also turn into premiums. Having to pay for SL right from the start would be a huge barrier to entry. Getting rid of a huge population of active users and shrinking new signups is such a bad idea. 

[FairreLilette]

9 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Subscriptions to games only work with a large player base and many multiplayer games have gone from a subscriber system to free-to-play. SL isn’t like most games. Free players can still create and consume content. Free players can also turn into premiums. Having to pay for SL right from the start would be a huge barrier to entry. Getting rid of a huge population of active users and shrinking new signups is such a bad idea. 

Yes I think so too because think of the alt market.  Having to pay for alts at start-up.  That could be disastrous.  

[Sundog Nacht]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

That would likely just pay for the MP servers and maybe money services.

Add in the money Linden Lab makes from all those people with free accounts who own regions. The Lab makes most of their income from them.

[Marianne Little]

I have explained in the Linden Homes part of the forum, that I think I do not get enough land and prims to play with for a Premium account.

And I have 4 premiums now, and I will possibly let one go back to Basic in 2 weeks. At the most, I had six. When you won't renew a Premium, LL asks:  Why did you downgrade to Basic? And I explain why. It sits lots and lots of unused, abandoned land that LL runs on its servers.

With VAT, I pay 500 USD for 4 premium accounts if I pay yearly. I know VAT isn't LL's fault, but it is still money I have to pay, so I can't ignore that cost.

500 USD a year gives me almost 1500 prims to rez per year, after I have paid for land from another resident or bought abandoned land from LL. I will not discuss Linden Homes, since LL has said it's "starter homes". It's no way to use group bonus there also.

The group bonus only work if I have all the land in one Mainland region. If I am not lucky enough for that, forget group bonus.

This is not me saying I will quit SL in a rage. I am just pointing out that I can rent 1400 prims for 899 L per week. And I do not pay VAT for renting from another resident. The best by living in a rental is: I have no land to sell, or abandon at a loss. I can decide that the next month is so busy in RL that I won't have time for SL, and tell the landlord that I am leaving.

The best reason for me to staying Premium is that I get my money's worth.

[Teagan Tobias]

No, Second Life would not survive ending free accounts, no.

But, if the low end was something like $10 a year and then Premium at what it is now, then maybe, a really big maybe.

Have the low end not get all the perks that premium gets, like a Linden Home and more groups.

This could benefit the players by keeping the riffraff and griefers away. But I think the initial drop in users would be devastating.

I have two Premium accounts now but will be dropping one back to free on next renewal, and if I lose that account if I don’t stay premium, I’ll be PO’ed big time, I’ve spent a lot of money on her!

[Doc Carling]

15 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I have explained in the Linden Homes part of the forum, that I think I do not get enough land and prims to play with for a Premium account.

And I have 4 premiums now, and I will possibly let one go back to Basic in 2 weeks. At the most, I had six. When you won't renew a Premium, LL asks:  Why did you downgrade to Basic? And I explain why. It sits lots and lots of unused, abandoned land that LL runs on its servers.

With VAT, I pay 500 USD for 4 premium accounts if I pay yearly. I know VAT isn't LL's fault, but it is still money I have to pay, so I can't ignore that cost.

500 USD a year gives me almost 1500 prims to rez per year, after I have paid for land from another resident or bought abandoned land from LL. I will not discuss Linden Homes, since LL has said it's "starter homes". It's no way to use group bonus there also.

The group bonus only work if I have all the land in one Mainland region. If I am not lucky enough for that, forget group bonus.

This is not me saying I will quit SL in a rage. I am just pointing out that I can rent 1400 prims for 899 L per week. And I do not pay VAT for renting from another resident. The best by living in a rental is: I have no land to sell, or abandon at a loss. I can decide that the next month is so busy in RL that I won't have time for SL, and tell the landlord that I am leaving.

The best reason for me to staying Premium is that I get my money's worth.

As I mentioned before. My land rent is about 50 USD monthly therefore about 600 per year. I get 3750 prims for that. So 1500 sounds pretty modest.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Doc Carling

[Gabriele Graves]

Premium accounts for all?  I doubt it.  For the reasons I posted in the other topic.  LL don't want to risk those "freemium" people who have private regions and large estates or the people who rent from them.

[Gabriele Graves]

33 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I have explained in the Linden Homes part of the forum, that I think I do not get enough land and prims to play with for a Premium account.

And I have 4 premiums now, and I will possibly let one go back to Basic in 2 weeks. At the most, I had six. When you won't renew a Premium, LL asks:  Why did you downgrade to Basic? And I explain why. It sits lots and lots of unused, abandoned land that LL runs on its servers.

With VAT, I pay 500 USD for 4 premium accounts if I pay yearly. I know VAT isn't LL's fault, but it is still money I have to pay, so I can't ignore that cost.

500 USD a year gives me almost 1500 prims to rez per year, after I have paid for land from another resident or bought abandoned land from LL. I will not discuss Linden Homes, since LL has said it's "starter homes". It's no way to use group bonus there also.

The group bonus only work if I have all the land in one Mainland region. If I am not lucky enough for that, forget group bonus.

This is not me saying I will quit SL in a rage. I am just pointing out that I can rent 1400 prims for 899 L per week. And I do not pay VAT for renting from another resident. The best by living in a rental is: I have no land to sell, or abandon at a loss. I can decide that the next month is so busy in RL that I won't have time for SL, and tell the landlord that I am leaving.

The best reason for me to staying Premium is that I get my money's worth.

This is why lots of people go for double-prim land.  Yes the upfront costs are far bigger but that cost is paid once only.  After that you have double the land impact available for the same premium account.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

Are the numerous posts I deliberately chose to ignore bitching about "free accounts" being freeloaders and a pain on the economy? 🤨

[Charlotte Bartlett]

I can't imagine any business user case that would make Second Life premium only.   But who knows!

1. I am not Premium but I am Concierge (sim owners are) so I was always hopeful we would get a merchant premium offering but it was soon clear with Premium Plus it was going towards something else (and not surprised it got delayed). 

2. Forcing Premium will slow new user sign up as SL is a difficult and complex place to get used to.   Even with a free trial, it would likely lead to a lower sign up rate. Lower sign ups lead to lower opportunities for those users to "stick" and invest USD into their new hobby.  Why reduce your market?

3. It's a myth that free accounts cost LL money.  In fact the opposite, they are an integral part of the economy.  Those free accounts can spend x amount of money each month buying content from creators, renting land, all of that translates into an end point where LL receive income as a result.  They are a vital and needed part of the SL economy.

4. LL over the past 2 years have heavily pushed their income model to rely on fees and less from land.  Whilst the premium accounts balance Stipends to sinks (Linden Dollar fees) so the USD fee charge goes into the profit column, the free accounts can (and do) spend Linden Dollars purchased with USD allowing the economy to run and more of those fees to be generated for Linden Lab.  Without free accounts purchasing and spending their USD, Linden Lab would face a shinking economy which would impact their fee income capability.

[steeljane42]

Subscription based mmos are almost dead. There's WoW and FFXIV, but that's probably only two big ones left, at least on the west. The rest are either a small fish, B2P with optional "premium" (ESO), or various types of cash grab F2P ones, from modest to truly terrible.

Most F2P games also make a lot, plenty games had a major boost in players and profit after switching from P2P (LoTR mmo for example doubled their revenue after going free). Then there are F2P games like Genshin Impact (it's not even a mmo) that made over 100m$ in release month while being F2P, but with heavy gacha elements. Hearthstone (card game) at its peak in 2015 earned almost 480m$ a year being 100% F2P, 400m$ in 2016. And there's pretty much unlimited examples. Population and/or community is a vital part of any game/platform ecosystem, and the bigger the population is the more potential "whales" will be in it, too. But there's probably no point to bother with explaining how F2P model works to someone who thinks that "f2p are a thorn" to LL (or any other company that offers a F2P product).

Edited October 14, 2020 by steeljane42

[Sassy Kenin]

2 hours ago, Doc Carling said:

will Second Life survive the end of free accounts?