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Major differences of available body types


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56 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

We don't blame the people who buy what's available. We blame the creators second and LL first, for enabling creators to bring us into this situation we're in. The best solution we have is a reforming of the Complexity calculation (called project ARCTAN in the past, if that's still around), which should cause most complexity numbers to shoot up because the vast majority of SL content exploits Complexity, knowingly or not. Once LL gives people a new framework to work within, it'll naturally guide most people to better practices the same way as up until now the "best practice" has been exploits.

It's still around and it's not going to help. If what Oz said is true, its NOT going to punish bad optimization, we'll get the same again just different.

 

21 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

Cool, so maybe someone can make human feet for the body too. But I think there would not be many buyers. The female body market is so filled up and not many cares about triangles.

Someone could, yes. If the regalia is as open as other furry content you or anyone can just go grab the Blender file and make some.

 

1 hour ago, RowanMinx said:

The thing is, regardless of who is right or wrong, who has more triangles, people will buy whichever body they like and whichever body they can easily clothe.  We can shout all we'd like about it but unless I, myself, can create something better, I'm forced to choose what's available.  Sure, we can note card creators about our concerns.  Some might listen and most will not.  

As a human (and as far as I'm aware, we ALL are underneath), we really can't run around naked all the time and bald.  

 

I'm not bald. There's a big difference between bald and simply having no hair. Crystals are my hair, in fact they are a complete mane. Even horns. Just because one of my avatars doesn't have hair doesn't mean all of them have. I've worn hair for 10 years on all my avatars. I even wear the dreaded lights on one. (Not facelights)

image.thumb.png.a75073bfd71d9d35d154811c53fdbb00.png

 

Edited by NiranV Dean
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5 hours ago, RowanMinx said:

The thing is, regardless of who is right or wrong, who has more triangles, people will buy whichever body they like and whichever body they can easily clothe.  We can shout all we'd like about it but unless I, myself, can create something better, I'm forced to choose what's available.  Sure, we can note card creators about our concerns.  Some might listen and most will not.  

As a human (and as far as I'm aware, we ALL are underneath), we really can't run around naked all the time and bald.  

 

Sorry should not read and post while driving*

Edited by Sassy Kenin
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7 minutes ago, Sassy Kenin said:

Shouldn't that all been aimed at thr other two. that really has nothing to do with the question asked them.

I was basically agreeing with you and hoping the other two.would respond.  Sorry for any confusion.

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1 hour ago, Marianne Little said:

What I don't understand with the Regalia body, is: It is only paws. I get it, humans are not worthy. But what do furries who like Regalia do if they want different feet, like bird feet, hooves, dragon feet etc.?

I mean; it is a big and versatile group of people, and all they get is paws? Does this not contradict "High modability"?

It's mod. In the furry world everything is always mod.

There's about a gazillion kits out there to swap pieces in or out.

2 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

Infact the average human user i'd describe as expecting the following: Compatibility with all of the most used human clothing and body parts (e.g mix and match with other human parts, texture compatibility and clothing compatibility), multiple scripted HUDs for basically editing everything possible (e.g adding textures, changing features like glossiness, changing alpha cuts etc etc), no mod, highly detailed (as in falsely highly polygonized otherwise its "bad"), ready-to-go baked-into-mesh shapes...

The sad thing is, ALL of that can be done with a low triangle count and well optimized scripts.

Except for the parts of your quote that I put a strikethrough - because those are the things they expect that are actually bad... and don't need to be there...

Human AV users are getting ripped off by developers that don't understand optimizing content. 'BOM' was basically LLs saying "OMG WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU NOOBS, here, please at least do this..." It was their attempt to at least shave a few million polygons off... We've still got a few million more than needed... BOM is like putting a bandaid on a portable nuke... It's better than just leaving the nuke in the living room, but... you've still got a nuke in the living room...

 

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3 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

I was basically agreeing with you and hoping the other two.would respond.  Sorry for any confusion.

Thank 😘Sorry I must of misread that as well 🥰

They both seem to forget linden lab is not even half the size it once was in terms developers..LL addresses almost all of it on " meet the lindens: on YouTube 

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16 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

But I wonder if the shoulders are a problem for the customer mass, or is it a few on the forum that brings it up?

 

That is one we'll probably never have an answer for. I suspect it is more of a thing for people using the forum. Maitreya is popular and designers design for Maitreya which suggests they sell lots.

When I was considering buying Maitreya and looking for people's opinions it was a post in the forum that got me looking at the "flaws" in Maitreya. Until then I hadn't noticed the soda straw shoulders and high armpits. Now I see it all the time. So I suspect most people just don't notice it... no mass consumer thing.

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Sure, one might say, you can't run around naked for maximum optimization. Sure, that's entirely true. But, to illustrate the point Niran & Pussycat were making... my avatar, depicted below - fully dressed and with entirely too much jewelry, is still <500k triangles all in all - which is about one naked belleza body with no head, or half a legacy body, again with no head.

Out of the human bodies, though, there is an option that's just about as good! Slink is on equal footing with most furry creators when it comes to sensible and good-looking optimized bodies. Even Maitreya isn't all that bad now that the onion layers are optional. So you can be relatively low-lag as a human, too.

thrid.thumb.jpg.eb4c681410e4d15c6d6046ba6cf82842.jpg

 

 

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Second Life software has it's limits, It's also up to the user to meet or exceed the recommended hardware/internet connections requirements...LL also gives you tools to filter others and objects and whole areas to optimize your experience if you choose to use them.

Personally I never experience lag even in a crowded full sim.. this might be due to me not cheapen out on my internet or thinking using the free WiFi at taco bell is all I need.

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1 hour ago, Cinos Field said:

Sure, one might say, you can't run around naked for maximum optimization. Sure, that's entirely true. But, to illustrate the point Niran & Pussycat were making... my avatar, depicted below - fully dressed and with entirely too much jewelry, is still <500k triangles all in all - which is about one naked belleza body with no head, or half a legacy body, again with no head.

Out of the human bodies, though, there is an option that's just about as good! Slink is on equal footing with most furry creators when it comes to sensible and good-looking optimized bodies. Even Maitreya isn't all that bad now that the onion layers are optional. So you can be relatively low-lag as a human, too.

thrid.thumb.jpg.eb4c681410e4d15c6d6046ba6cf82842.jpg

 

 

What i meant was actually that the statement "we can't run around naked" or "you're always naked" is neither an excuse for being overly complex nor is that what's really happening. I can be clothed and still have far below 100k triangles and far less memory usage than probably anyone here that isn't using one of those funky alien or default avatars. What i'm trying to say is that i chose to be naked for style reasons, not because of optimization, i've went a great deal optimizing my other snake variation that actually wears clothing. Also, clothing created inevitably inherits the complexity of the body it is based on unless due to several reasons, this being that often clothing is cut out from the body or modelled closely after the body, sharing roughly its triangle segmentations to match those of the body underneath in order to allow the clothing to bend when rigged as close to the body as possible (because we all hate clothing that sticks through don't we?).

 

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Though an additional note here, even though this precaution is taken it seems to not help as most if not everyone i see with human bodies use alphas regardless of the clothing fitting or not. This is much rarer on pure furry bodies and also much less often required as much more care is taken to prevent clipping even with extremely tight clothing, this however could be again due to taking the base body weights (since most if not all furry bodies come with the full blender file and all weights, which mean weights can simply be copied to the clothing). The key point here being that if your body already sports hundreds of thousands of triangles, the clothing will inevitably have to follow to some degree, meaning low triangle bodies will sport much lower triangle count clothing and accessories than higher triangle bodies. Which puts all the more emphasis on creating a very well optimized base body. However, at this point we are so far down the rabbit hole that even if they were to suddenly update all human bodies to be perfectly optimized and super low poly, clothing wouldn't follow probably for many years to come, since the customers would have to buy new stuff that was created for the new updated body which they wont if they can just use their old... also why recreate everything that's already there... right?

I suppose this is the other side of the blade, while it seems like a big drawback having a new body being incompatible with the old stuff its actually also a big part in how and why optimization takes place in the way it does. Plus, with the full blender files it is often not even hard to refit already existing parts to new bodies. I've already seen several big furry creators refit their clothing for several avatars, starting usually with the Kemono, followed by the Blue Galaxy Solarian and some Orange Nova avatars, sometimes even the base LL body.

This kinda brings me to a big problem again, the whole no-mod fiasco and the many road blockers put in your way as creator.... or the inaccessibility of good blender files. Any and all "issues" with furry bodies, be it incompatible clothing, issues with rigging or texturing, missing body parts, bad optimization or something else, all of these issues can easily be fixed with the easy-to-access original files both textures and mesh itself and the mod permission on almost everything (save the scripts). Another big problem of the hard-to-mod bodies is that i can't even help people. Since i've joined SL i've always exclusively used the build tools to do my edits unless its a HUD that changes textures and they are only available via the HUD (like different eyebrows, eyes, body texture variants etc) because it is much easier and faster to do it that way and it universally works across everything ever in Second Life, its also one of the baseline skills of Second Life. No-mod and HUD exclusive bodies prevent me from editing them directly, this has caused me a lot of trouble several times already. A lot of people come to me with issues about their body in my Viewer because it doesn't offer the usual common bad hacks Firestorm does (like turning off eye movement) that everyone has been praising you up and down to use at all times. I can't help them because their issues always require editing their bodies, which they can't and either the HUD doesn't offer what is required to fix it or the HUD is an over scripted 500 button high tech machine that requires rocket science to operate, it is next to impossible for me to help them unless i had the HUD myself and every body has its own HUD.... or HUDs... often multiple. I constantly have to resort to shoving these users off to other users in my Discord channel because i cannot help them, not only does this make me look like an ***** it also makes me completely helpless which is the exact opposite of the point of coming to me directly because i can usually offer fast and straight-to-the-point help with almost all issues. My biggest gripe with this is that this is not something i can fix, it's an issue that content creators create for the sole purpose of ... i don't know... i'm literally incapable of understanding why you would do this, logic does not help me here and all i can think of is simply wanting to see the world burn for the sake of seeing it burn.

I'm going to repeat myself here but if i could i would have made a human mesh body that offers the freedom and optimization of furry content while offering as much compatibility with the human content as possible and making switching over as easy as possible. I'd even go as far as making it free if this is what i'd have to do to destroy this weird no-mod human economy with unoptimized content. I'm that type of guy who wants to see YOU burn if you want to see the world burn for no reason like these seemingly people do. I've already proven in the past that i do try to crack down hard on people who (what i can only describe as) scam people. See the Black Dragon Poser. Poser HUDs were a thing and they became pretty popular... for a steep price... i found it unacceptable to demand so much money (upwards of 3000L$) for something that should be free for everyone, ultimately leading to me making the Poser an actual thing, for free, i've even tried pushing it into the Official Viewer but with them wanting to gut half of its useful features for the sake of content protection when it gets an exporter the implementation has come to an halt for now.

You can only hope that you never do something that i see as scam or as unethical while i have the skill to do the same or something better than you, i will try to ruin you and i will do it for free. I am absolutely the biggest ***** when it comes to ripping off people, i have a zero-tolerance policy to these kind of things.

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