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Major differences of available body types


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On 10/16/2020 at 8:28 PM, FairreLilette said:

I think new mesh bodies from someone else could be in the future...

I hope so. The rise of Genus and Legacy both show it's still possible to come out of nowhere and seize a significant chunk of the market. Imagine what someone could do with a beautifully realized mesh AND a fully functioning HUD.

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35 minutes ago, missyrideout said:

I hope so. The rise of Genus and Legacy both show it's still possible to come out of nowhere and seize a significant chunk of the market. Imagine what someone could do with a beautifully realized mesh AND a fully functioning HUD.

Does "beautifully realized" mean yet another 500-750K triangles or do we finally hit the one-million mark?

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Just now, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Does "beautifully realized" mean yet another 500-750K triangles or do we finally hit the one-million mark?

The average fashionista doesn't care about triangles. So if someone can best current offerings with lower poly counts, all the better.

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On 10/16/2020 at 12:38 PM, Vanity Fair said:

In other words, you do not need to spend thousands of Linden dollars to get a good-looking, mesh avatar appearance. 

Agreed.  But I will say that I made a new alt toward the end of the first quarter of this year, partially to check out LL's current onboarding for new avatars, and as an extension of that, to see how easy it was to get a decent looking mesh avatar appearance.

While the freebie and dollarbie bodies can work (I used one of the Ruth 2.0 variants, as well as the MeshBody dollarbie), the problems with the neck-to-headseam are exponentially increased with those bodies over Maitreya.  I eventually got so frustrated I caved in and kitted out my newest alt in a Maitreya body.  It just made everything so much easier.  Not to say what I had was *terrible*... just much more difficult than it was with the Maitreya.

I can see for new residents of SL, the information overload would be overwhelming, and trying to purchase an avatar body as a newbie could become intensely frustrating and time consuming.

Edited by Ajay McDowwll
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18 hours ago, missyrideout said:

The average fashionista doesn't care about triangles.

   Fashionista: Look at me, look at how fabulous I look!

sl_jelly_dolls.jpg?w=640

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  • 2 weeks later...

The major difference between body types on SL is : the price, the quality, the complexity (some mesh bodies creates lot of lag... but who cares ?), and what you want to look like (the most important point). For female bodies, most of ppl choose the same bodies : Maitreya or Legacy, and the risk is : everyone look the same.

The tendency is to have chubby avatars, but you have the choice... for example you could try the new REBIRTH mesh body that allow you to shape a thin avatar, in different style, kid / teen / adult and more ... you can switch from female to male hehe

 

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4 hours ago, AngieForever21 said:

The major difference between body types on SL is : the price, the quality, the complexity (some mesh bodies creates lot of lag... but who cares ?), and what you want to look like (the most important point). For female bodies, most of ppl choose the same bodies : Maitreya or Legacy, and the risk is : everyone look the same.

The tendency is to have chubby avatars, but you have the choice... for example you could try the new REBIRTH mesh body that allow you to shape a thin avatar, in different style, kid / teen / adult and more ... you can switch from female to male hehe

 I've yet to see any clothing aside from what they sell themselves.  Downside.

Edited by RowanMinx
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On 10/18/2020 at 6:18 PM, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Does "beautifully realized" mean yet another 500-750K triangles or do we finally hit the one-million mark?

/sigh...

It will but it shouldn't.

The best mesh body I have seen in the past few years is Regalia.

Silly low triangle count. super low script impact.

And it can wear the clothes of Belleza, Maitreya, Legacy, Slink, and a few more...

 

It just has 2 problems:

  1. It comes with paws instead of feet - yep, it's a furry body meant for people who want to wear ANY brand of human clothes.
  2. It uses it's own UV map - which was completely unnecessary as UV map is not linked to triangles, etc. After all everyone else is using a UV map from 1999...

 

regaliamaitreyabelleza2.png

So that is:

  • Regalia: 31,928 (33736 triangles)
  • Maitreya (only skin layer worn): 134,699 (176,297 triangles)
  • Belleza: 424,473 (521287 triangles)

- the complexity numbers come from @NiranV Dean's Dragon Viewer, which doesn't allow cheaters in it's formula, unlike LL's and other viewers.

The triangle count however, is just plain facts showing how much these human body makers suck in graphics optimization.

Human body makers ain't got NO excuses other than "I haz no skillz".

 

ps: this is why my human look went Maitreya recently. That number up there is still too high, but it's about 1/4th of what it used to be. At least they are trying to improve...

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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3 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

 

- the complexity numbers come from @NiranV Dean's Dragon Viewer, which doesn't allow cheaters in it's formula, unlike LL's and other viewers.

Human body makers ain't got NO excuses other than "I haz no skillz".

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion with us.

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4 hours ago, AngieForever21 said:

 

The tendency is to have chubby avatars, but you have the choice... for example you could try the new REBIRTH mesh body that allow you to shape a thin avatar, in different style, kid / teen / adult and more ... you can switch from female to male hehe

 

Will check it out thank's for the tip😍 and welcome to the forums🥰

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Sooner or later Maitreya should adress the shoulder issues. There could be a "deformer" back to the original body so both old and new stuff can be worn. It is deformers everywhere.

I have to admit, I am not seeing anything wrong with them. I don't do many pictures of my avatar now, so I do not study it well.

But I wonder if the shoulders are a problem for the customer mass, or is it a few on the forum that brings it up?

I don't think Maitreya will loose designer support. They are early out with new things and adapt well. The new bodies is perfect to use for me, while Slink went too far and Belleza is sleeping in some attic. That brand is really slow with updates.

But it is something about Legacy. That brand has mad skills, for advertising and to get stuff created for them. You should think they had some sort of magic. I see in clothing packs, several more designers include Legacy Perky, than Maitreya Petite. And I can't remember seeing stuff for the smallchested Slink.

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14 hours ago, Sassy Kenin said:

Thanks for sharing your opinion with us.

That's no opinion sadly. As she said, its simple facts, there's no dodging this bullet.

18 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

/sigh...

It will but it shouldn't.

The best mesh body I have seen in the past few years is Regalia.

Silly low triangle count. super low script impact.

And it can wear the clothes of Belleza, Maitreya, Legacy, Slink, and a few more...

 

It just has 2 problems:

  1. It comes with paws instead of feet - yep, it's a furry body meant for people who want to wear ANY brand of human clothes.
  2. It uses it's own UV map - which was completely unnecessary as UV map is not linked to triangles, etc. After all everyone else is using a UV map from 1999...

 

regaliamaitreyabelleza2.png

So that is:

  • Regalia: 31,928 (33736 triangles)
  • Maitreya (only skin layer worn): 134,699 (176,297 triangles)
  • Belleza: 424,473 (521287 triangles)

- the complexity numbers come from @NiranV Dean's Dragon Viewer, which doesn't allow cheaters in it's formula, unlike LL's and other viewers.

The triangle count however, is just plain facts showing how much these human body makers suck in graphics optimization.

Human body makers ain't got NO excuses other than "I haz no skillz".

 

ps: this is why my human look went Maitreya recently. That number up there is still too high, but it's about 1/4th of what it used to be. At least they are trying to improve...

 

Also damn, i saw Regalia a few times but i've never seen the baseline body, i didn't even link it to be a Furry body for human stuff. That obviously explains a lot. But yea though, this direct comparison basically shows how utterly unnecessary dense human bodies are and how this could easily be reduced massively. The different UV map i assume is because the person who made it simply unwrapped the UV map or tried making their own for reasons. Seeing how many mods there are for it i don't think it has hurt its popularity or sales in any way, i mean every single furry mesh body comes with its own UV map and they get millions of mods too, another reason might be that the body is actually created from scratch by someone professional rather than a simple subdivide from the original LL mesh by a wanna-be. Recreating the UV map by hand to match that of the LL body 1:1 is a tedious job, more tedious and basically impossible because you'd have to shove around thousands of vertices by hand, this alone would be more work than making the entire body combined.

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9 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

. The new bodies is perfect to use for me, while Slink went too far and Belleza is sleeping in some attic.

Some good thoughts I agree, just wondering what that might be? I switched to Maitreya  from Slink after the Update due to no Alpha Hud and having a hard time making some for older clothing.

Still have not tried Belleza but sounds like maybe not the best time?

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10 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Sooner or later Maitreya should adress the shoulder issues. There could be a "deformer" back to the original body so both old and new stuff can be worn. It is deformers everywhere.

I wish! 

 

10 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

But I wonder if the shoulders are a problem for the customer mass, or is it a few on the forum that brings it up?

It's difficult to say BUT I noticed the shoulder problem when taking photos and when dancing and sometimes it's the particular animation too.  You can see the shoulder problem here in my photo below.  I still use Maitreya though but would love if she would come out with a new full petite that could be teen or look like a doll which is what I want - a doll look - but then we'd have to buy all new clothing for that, so I'd rather keep my old Maitreya and my clothes and use a deformer.  I do re-wear my clothes.  I'm not a one timer and then throw it away.  I did delete most of my Classic items though, keeping only a few I would like to use for BOM now.  But, getting rid of my whole Maitreya wardrobe for better shoulders...well, that's quite an expense...so no on that then as being important.  A new body that is fully able to be petite without deformers, I'd love that!  p.s.  I don't think we all look the same in Maitreya as someone else said in this thread although many say that about Catwa or whatever that they all look the same.  As far as body in regards to another comment in this thread, I have always been a "thin".  However, the butt and hips are a little larger here because this was a mermaid on land.  I gave her bigger hips because she would swim a lot as a mermaid.  hahaha

Snapshot_1217.png

Edited by FairreLilette
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2 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

That's no opinion sadly. As she said, its simple facts, there's no dodging this bullet.

Also damn, i saw Regalia a few times but i've never seen the baseline body, i didn't even link it to be a Furry body for human stuff. That obviously explains a lot. But yea though, this direct comparison basically shows how utterly unnecessary dense human bodies are and how this could easily be reduced massively. The different UV map i assume is because the person who made it simply unwrapped the UV map or tried making their own for reasons. Seeing how many mods there are for it i don't think it has hurt its popularity or sales in any way, i mean every single furry mesh body comes with its own UV map and they get millions of mods too, another reason might be that the body is actually created from scratch by someone professional rather than a simple subdivide from the original LL mesh by a wanna-be.

Oh yeah.

I just meant it a problem for someone with a human look wanting to use it. They'd have to deal with the pawed feet and wouldn't be able to use their skins.

And I suspect you're right - the maker of, if not a profesional, at least understood optimizing for 'real time graphics' in a manner similar to game developers. A lot few triangles placed only where they are needed for good animation / shaping and not just 'thrown in to fill up density'... This thing was actually optimized.

 

Is it the best that could be? I don't know - I am not a game graphics developer. BUT I can see that it's a lot better than the 'human body' offerings and it just makes me sad that these furry makers who seem to know how to do 'real time 3D graphics' right, don't branch out and take over the human body market...

/sigh...

When I put them all in wireframe side by side with 2 alts for that image it was shocking. In that image I am still wearing a mesh human head - which is why it suddenly got so dense in triangles up there... but notice how in the head... the density is concentrated to the areas of facial animation. While too dense, at least the head maker understood the basics. On the 2 human bodies... can anyone explain why my belly button has so much triangle density...? How many shape dials and animation rigging points are in the belly button exactly? 0... unless I missed something.

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11 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Sooner or later Maitreya should adress the shoulder issues. There could be a "deformer" back to the original body so both old and new stuff can be worn. It is deformers everywhere.

This is because it's not just about triangle density - but also placement.

Back in the Daz3D art world I remember this kind of conversation over the 'Vicky' model that eventually became the basis of their 'generation models'. Early versions had some points like that kept deforming. Other 3D modelers that got the model started showing wireframes with various lines and arrows drawn showing how triangles placed at the wrong angles or in the wrong spots were causing it to bend improperly.

The result is that in future releases, slowly over time, Daz fixed these issues as they came to light. With every version people seem to find new issues... but it's a back and forth and the triangles keep getting better.

Now... that's an art model. So their solution is the exact wrong one for here. Everytime they find a flaw they just up the triangle count by another 30-billion...

To really fix this... you'd want to hire somebody that used to work for a company like Blizzard, Zenemax, Square Enix, NCSoft, etc... - Game developers. They have to find a way to make things move and animation in real time on often slower consoles than many of us have as our computers... and... they do it. But they often sacrifice a lot of detail as a result. So you need to work with them and not for them... to bridge the gap between that kind of optimization and what is needed in SL where we can animate the figure in our own ways and see it from any angle.

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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1 hour ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Oh yeah.

I just meant it a problem for someone with a human look wanting to use it. They'd have to deal with the pawed feet and wouldn't be able to use their skins.

And I suspect you're right - the maker of, if not a profesional, at least understood optimizing for 'real time graphics' in a manner similar to game developers. A lot few triangles placed only where they are needed for good animation / shaping and not just 'thrown in to fill up density'... This thing was actually optimized.

 

Is it the best that could be? I don't know - I am not a game graphics developer. BUT I can see that it's a lot better than the 'human body' offerings and it just makes me sad that these furry makers who seem to know how to do 'real time 3D graphics' right, don't branch out and take over the human body market...

/sigh...

I do not know why they don't. I suspect that the Furry Community and Human Community have completely different expectations, just like with the UV map i'd expect that humans would expect all human bodies to follow the standard, which is Omega/whatever compatibility and the same UV map as well has crazily overscripted HUDs, no mod and all those shenanigans.

Infact the average human user i'd describe as expecting the following: Compatibility with all of the most used human clothing and body parts (e.g mix and match with other human parts, texture compatibility and clothing compatibility), multiple scripted HUDs for basically editing everything possible (e.g adding textures, changing features like glossiness, changing alpha cuts etc etc), no mod, highly detailed (as in falsely highly polygonized otherwise its "bad"), ready-to-go baked-into-mesh shapes...

As furry i come to expect a lot of different things. I expect an optimized, script-time efficient low lag HUD and body with 1-2 scripts at maximum, a totally new UV map, texture PSD's freely available coming with the avatar, mesh body blender files freely available without signing contracts, extremely high modability and modularity (mix and match sometimes with human parts/clothing and completely different avatars), everything except scripts open for modding, low prices in the range of 1000-2000 for the entire avatar which include not only the body but head, tail, ears, hands, feet and animations to work with these out-of-the-box, male and female boxed together, multiple texture variants (colors, basically fat packs), PG and Mature version, multiple breast sizes all the way up and down to male flat body, several thought out well placed segments for body parts to be cut off/replaced with other parts and absolutely NO onion layers in any way, fitted mesh and bento support. A funny thing is, furry avatars basically always come with the weirdest, craziest and most impossible shapes and the body is designed to be used with these but they can be very well retinkered to be used for almost any shape whatsoever, no one has an issue with that, everyone just makes their own shapes or if thats not enough start tinkering with the blender file.

One major difference i see there is that Furries have always come to expect the highest modability possible, a furry avatar that's no mod would be basically useless and would quickly vanish into nothingness. Prices are also crazy different compared to human stuff. Where we get full avatars for 1000-2000L$, humans pay upwards of 1000L$ for body, head, hands, feet, skin and even shapes not to mention clothing and any additional items or modifications. We're looking at a difference in price of 2000-8000L$ for an avatar. I can build a full avatar for just under 3000L$, including a total conversion mod, skin, shapes, extra parts and clothing unless i'm buying human parts.

I think a big problem why it is the way it is is because humans simply don't care, i mean this is basic offer and demand. There is simply no demand for well optimized human avatars that don't cost an arm or leg. Most humans don't care and even link "optimized" to being "bad", less detailed and/or being naked.  Everyone sees me running around naked, complaining that i'm too poor to buy clothes or my body having nothing available to wear but i've just chosen to not wear anything, i think the body looks very nice and clothing is nothing more than vanity to look cool (which is not my every-day style i want to use, if i wanted to look cool i'd put on something cool), also i've spent a great deal of time working on that body and shape, so why not show it.

Snokra.thumb.png.783c806f690c9389b9c7f6520b8278bf.png

Coming from an avatar thats advertised with this mesh/shape

image.png.2b14bc8433957238fc705d6dcb25a920.png

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Orange-Nova-Snokra-Snake/13541472

Edited by NiranV Dean
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17 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Triangle counts are facts.

You can look at this fiasco yourself in wireframe mode.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

That's no opinion sadly. As she said, its simple facts, there's no dodging this bullet.

 

In your words what reason and motivation would linden lab lie about it and the other 3rd parties go into collusion over it?

Trying to understand this theory you both have.

 

 

lucy.jpg

Edited by Sassy Kenin
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4 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

The different UV map i assume is because the person who made it simply unwrapped the UV map or tried making their own for reasons. Seeing how many mods there are for it i don't think it has hurt its popularity or sales in any way, i mean every single furry mesh body comes with its own UV map and they get millions of mods too, another reason might be that the body is actually created from scratch by someone professional rather than a simple subdivide from the original LL mesh by a wanna-be. Recreating the UV map by hand to match that of the LL body 1:1 is a tedious job, more tedious and basically impossible because you'd have to shove around thousands of vertices by hand, this alone would be more work than making the entire body combined.

The stated reason for the UV map is (I'm paraphrasing) to make it easier for creators to make "seamless" textures for the body, since it's all one connected texture.

30 minutes ago, Sassy Kenin said:

In your words what reason and motivation would linden lab lie about it and the other 3rd parties go into collusion over it?

LL isn't "lying," they're just dumb. The way Complexity is officially calculated is flawed and easily exploitable.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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1 minute ago, Sassy Kenin said:

 

In your words what reason and motivation would linden lab lie about it and the other 3rd parties go into collusion over it?

Trying to understand this theory you both have.

The thing is, regardless of who is right or wrong, who has more triangles, people will buy whichever body they like and whichever body they can easily clothe.  We can shout all we'd like about it but unless I, myself, can create something better, I'm forced to choose what's available.  Sure, we can note card creators about our concerns.  Some might listen and most will not.  

As a human (and as far as I'm aware, we ALL are underneath), we really can't run around naked all the time and bald.  

 

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2 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

The thing is, regardless of who is right or wrong, who has more triangles, people will buy whichever body they like and whichever body they can easily clothe.  We can shout all we'd like about it but unless I, myself, can create something better, I'm forced to choose what's available.  Sure, we can note card creators about our concerns.  Some might listen and most will not.  

As a human (and as far as I'm aware, we ALL are underneath), we really can't run around naked all the time and bald.  

We don't blame the people who buy what's available. We blame the creators second and LL first, for enabling creators to bring us into this situation we're in. The best solution we have is a reforming of the Complexity calculation (called project ARCTAN in the past, if that's still around), which should cause most complexity numbers to shoot up because the vast majority of SL content exploits Complexity, knowingly or not. Once LL gives people a new framework to work within, it'll naturally guide most people to better practices the same way as up until now the "best practice" has been exploits.

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What I don't understand with the Regalia body, is: It is only paws. I get it, humans are not worthy. But what do furries who like Regalia do if they want different feet, like bird feet, hooves, dragon feet etc.?

I mean; it is a big and versatile group of people, and all they get is paws? Does this not contradict "High modability"?

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5 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

What I don't understand with the Regalia body, is: It is only paws. I get it, humans are not worthy. But what do furries who like Regalia do if they want different feet, like bird feet, hooves, dragon feet etc.?

I mean; it is a big and versatile group of people, and all they get is paws? Does this not contradict "High modability"?

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/P-Ungulate-Legs-Regalia-MASCULINE-rez-to-unpack/19779221

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/BBMM-Equus-Legs-Regalia-Fatpack/19282250

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/BBMM-Corvus-Legs-Regalia-Fatpack/19018680

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/C-Regalia-Raptor-Feets/18329972

Some furry bodies come with human feet as a built-in option, other times, people will make an addon that's worn at the same time as the body itself.

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1 minute ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Cool, so maybe someone can make human feet for the body too. But I think there would not be many buyers. The female body market is so filled up and not many cares about triangles.

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