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Will Secondlife be able to provide what we need ?


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17 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I think you are confusing what people mean in regards to 1024 textures being unoptimised. No one I know that has argued about optimisation regards 1024 textures as unoptimised. They are a necessity in building. What people do argue insofar as 1024 textures goes is that their use on small objects are unoptimised.

No, there are people here who say all 1024's are too much for SL and I am sick of it.

However, I've lived in the "tiny revolution" which is a way to enjoy a SL lag-free and our events go 80+ avatar events and we've sometimes needed two sims.  We had a Mardi Gras parade where we drove our floats around for three laps - no lag.  It was an amazing experience.  You cannot have parades with the human avatars.  We optimize our avatars with no HUDS and no scripts and then I built a Tiny, Dinkie and Titchie club which is currently shut down due to coronavirus.  I had polygons galore and even had shooting stars on the sim...it was amazing and we had no lag as our avatars are very low lag to begin with - so it is the avatars which are big lag hogs; it is not always "the stuff"...I know I lived it; we lived it...it was an awesome sim with modern high polygon items - most of which I bought as second-hand Gachas.   Scripts are not needed for every eyeshadow, eyeliner, lipstick and EVERYTHING to be scripted in SL, not to mention your average SL user does not delete scripts.  But, I knew, if I started a thread that said STOP SCRIPTING EVERYTHING that there would be excuses made even though I have lived in the revolution - the revolution which is trying to make SL enjoyable and sociable without the lag.  

This kind of build below would be impossible for human avatars with the way they are.  But it's full of polygons and shooting stars; was absolutely a gorgeous experience and ALL av's had a great time and could rez all.  

 

Snapshot_757.png

Edited by FairreLilette
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They tried what you are suggesting (at the OP obviously). It was called Sansar. In many areas it outdid Second Life by miles.    And you know what?  It didn't work. Why? Because the PEOPLE L

I have been an active member of SL for way too long over 13 years of my life and it has been an amazing ride LL has made some improvements to improve are experience but the improvements are coming so

They did this. It was called Sansar. (And someone else did it independently too, with Sinespace). Both of them failed because there's something that SL needs much more than it needs fancy graphics.

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2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

No, there are people here who say all 1024's are too much for SL and I am sick of it.

Then my response would be the same as  @Wulfie Reanimator response (last sentance) to you before you posted to me.

2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

This kind of build below would be impossible for human avatars with the way they are.  But it's full of polygons and shooting stars; was absolutely a gorgeous experience and ALL av's had a great time and could rez all.  

Don't get me wrong, I agree 100% with you regarding scripts in avatars that are not necessary like eyelashes or earrings or finger rings etc. They shouldn't be there and creators shouldn't even put them in such items. That said, removing all scripts from an avatar shouldn't be necessary as the ones that are necessary are generally low impact.

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42 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Then my response would be the same as  @Wulfie Reanimator response (last sentance) to you before you posted to me.

Don't get me wrong, I agree 100% with you regarding scripts in avatars that are not necessary like eyelashes or earrings or finger rings etc. They shouldn't be there and creators shouldn't even put them in such items. That said, removing all scripts from an avatar shouldn't be necessary as the ones that are necessary are generally low impact.

I dunno everything all I know is I've lived in the tiny revolution for just over a year now where one can actually enjoy and do things in SL without the lag and we have 80+ avatar events and there are some humans there but it is preferred that the human be a low lag Classic avatar as there are a lot of people to accommodate.

But, most SL users don't even know what copy and modify means.  It means you are supposed to make a copy and paste it into your folder and then modify it and then delete the scripts from that item while keeping the original with scripts in it.  Most of my items are copy and modify and one can delete the scripts.  Also, I noticed recently Blueberry has an area to press delete scripts.  Well, if the avi doesn't know to make a copy first, they could delete the script from the original and then it won't color or change any longer.  One needs to make a copy first and paste into the folder before modification and/or deleting scripts.  New users are so used to push button everything, they wouldn't know how to make a copy and paste and then delete scripts with Blueberry.   

However, like I said, it would be an impossibility to have a parade with human mesh avatars but it's fun and so are a lot of things we do as "tinies" - low complexity, low lag avatars that humans could do with one or two avatars possibly if they are lucky but we can do with 100+ avatars.  

I've posted the video of our Mardi Gras parade.  People would think how did they rez all that stuff; they must have amazing computers.  LOL  No.  It's not some incredible amazing computer - it's optimized building for the SL viewer as to what it can actually handle.  

 

Edited by FairreLilette
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2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

In the lipstick example a 32 sized texture is more than ample (I would say overkill). In a furniture chair example depending on the complexity of what the texture is trying to convey a 256 size texture is ample size 

32 sized?  I dunno about that.

Here is my FIRST BOM eyeshadow made by me.  First photo 256 x 256, second photo 512 x 512.  

I don't think 32 is going to give us a nice lipstick.   Do you have examples of ample 32 x 32 sized texturing for a lipstick?  I would like to see it if you do.  thanks

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Oh dear.... we're starting to talk at cross-purposes here, I suspect. A 32 texture for THE lipstick, the object itself, or a 32 texture for the applied finish on the lips?

And scripts? Yes, it depends entirely what those scripts are doing, not the number of them. We do know that even idle scripts seem to take up mysterious amounts of time on the server, and so when the number of idle scripts is huge, there is an impact on server load. I understood that this is something being investigated by LL. But just one single "dirty" script can weigh very heavily on the server. To blandly blame scripts (which bring SL to life) is very short-sighted.

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28 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

32 sized?  I dunno about that.

Here is my FIRST BOM eyeshadow made by me.  First photo 256 x 256, second photo 512 x 512.  

I don't think 32 is going to give us a nice lipstick.   Do you have examples of ample 32 x 32 sized texturing for a lipstick?  I would like to see it if you do.  thanks

I also disagree that 32px would be enough for a nice looking lipstick texture, but I think there's some mixed context here again.

I don't think @Drayke Newall was talking about a 32px texture for the LL head UV. Instead, if you have a texture similar to this...

6f28c1d3d3.png 

That's pretty small, right? It's actually 128x64. This is equivalent in detail to a full 1024px texture for the whole head, which a lot of makeup is drawn on.

e9d2b3c3f7.png

All that wasted space (and texture memory!) for a little 128x64 lipstick... If the head's creator was smart, they would dedicate the full texture area (my first image) just for the lipstick. (Some do, most don't.)

But now that we have BOM, you can (and should!) use as many 1024s as you can for your avatar's bodyparts, always. It's literally free with no additional memory used, because LL's servers are combining alllll of those textures into a single flat texture before that one texture is sent to your viewer.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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On 10/9/2020 at 12:44 AM, Tresia Beck said:

I have been an active member of SL for way too long over 13 years of my life and it has been an amazing ride LL has made some improvements to improve are experience but the improvements are coming so slowly and I fear the cost to bring SL to the point it needs to be at is way too costly to even consider...

If we ask for a better SL we must be prepare that we have to pay the costs for it. Linden is a commercial company not a charity (what some residents seem to think). They won't invest money without to get something in return. That might be for example a forced premium account for all.  In that case the question is: can Second life survive the end of free accounts?

Edited by Doc Carling
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2 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

If we ask for a better SL we must be prepare that we have to pay the costs for it. Linden is a commercial company not a charity (what some residents seem to think). They won't invest money without to get something in return. That might be for example a forced premium account for all.  In that case the question is: can Second life survive the end of free accounts?

They were making enough to pay for the Sansar development so it would stand to reason that since they no longer are paying for that, they would have a leftover excess of income to invest into S/L development.

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On 10/13/2020 at 11:40 AM, Seicher Rae said:

I think you bring up some good points (to which I have no clue as to their answers), especially on the dates of articles and the less than friendly Wiki. As to the graphics? Hm. Maybe, but I started in 2009 and the graphics/viewers have improved a lot. I take mainly unedited, raw screenshot SL photography. In other words, I can view and walk around in SL exactly as my photos show.  I am currently using Black Dragon viewer or Firestorm (I've never used the LL viewer). Here's a shot from a recent exploration, (@ lotus palace) ymmv :) :

 

lotuspalacehotel 091720Prexize_001.png

ETA: No, I don't have a fancy computer. I have a 2nd-hand desktop, that *was* a good computer back in its day. AMD Phenom II X6 1090T w NVIDIA GeForce  GTX 970. I started out in SL on a decent laptop.

 

That's a gorgeous photo @Seicher Rae

I connect to SL on a PC running Linux Mint and the Firestorm viewer. The PC has a Ryzen 5 CPU, 32 GB of RAM, and a fairly cheap video card, though I forget the exact model.

I'll have to practice my SL photography skills.

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7 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I also disagree that 32px would be enough for a nice looking lipstick texture, but I think there's some mixed context here again.

I don't think @Drayke Newall was talking about a 32px texture for the LL head UV. Instead, if you have a texture similar to this...

6f28c1d3d3.png 

That's pretty small, right? It's actually 128x64. This is equivalent in detail to a full 1024px texture for the whole head, which a lot of makeup is drawn on.

e9d2b3c3f7.png

All that wasted space (and texture memory!) for a little 128x64 lipstick... If the head's creator was smart, they would dedicate the full texture area (my first image) just for the lipstick. (Some do, most don't.)

But now that we have BOM, you can (and should!) use as many 1024s as you can for your avatar's bodyparts, always. It's literally free with no additional memory used, because LL's servers are combining alllll of those textures into a single flat texture before that one texture is sent to your viewer.

Okay, I'm just learning.  It's my first eye make-up ever.  Thanks for posting this.  I will look it over.  

 

21 minutes ago, Odaks said:

To blandly blame scripts (which bring SL to life) is very short-sighted.

I'm not discussing scripts that make SL come to life.  I'm discussing unneccessary scripts such as to apply everything.  I only recently put a few resizers in my products.  People should learn they can resize their item very easily with the SL built-in tools but all of this is considered too complicated for the average SL user so everything must be at the push of a button.  Plus, we are also known as the instant gratification society.   We want everything in an instant but it is a lag drag especially when people don't even delete their scripts anymore nor even know how to.  As to what size texture he is meaning for a lipstick, I don't know...I'm not him.  But, I am right now a completely new novice to making BOM eye make-up.  It's my first try.

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27 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I also disagree that 32px would be enough for a nice looking lipstick texture, but I think there's some mixed context here again.

I don't think @Drayke Newall was talking about a 32px texture for the LL head UV. Instead, if you have a texture similar to this...

6f28c1d3d3.png 

That's pretty small, right? It's actually 128x64. This is equivalent in detail to a full 1024px texture for the whole head, which a lot of makeup is drawn on.

e9d2b3c3f7.png

All that wasted space (and texture memory!) for a little 128x64 lipstick... If the head's creator was smart, they would dedicate the full texture area (my first image) just for the lipstick. (Some do, most don't.)

But now that we have BOM, you can (and should!) use as many 1024s as you can for your avatar's bodyparts, always. It's literally free with no additional memory used, because LL's servers are combining alllll of those textures into a single flat texture before that one texture is sent to your viewer.

This is so great.  I didn't know all this.  All textures for the body should be 1024 x 1024.  GREAT!  

 

26 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

If we ask for a better SL we must be prepare that we have to pay the costs for it. Linden is a commercial company not a charity (what some residents seem to think). They won't invest money without to get something in return. That might be for example a forced premium account for all.  In that case the question is: can Second life survive the end of free accounts?

I've always had a free account as I don't want automatic payments coming out of my checking account.

But, I am far, far from a free player having at least $500 dollars worth of textures alone on this one avatar.  Not to mention all the other items I've bought, which isn't cheap that is for sure.  I don't see what free accounts really have to do with anything because it doesn't mean the person actually lives and/or works in SL in free.  Not at all.  The two are not related.  I simply don't want an auto payment coming out of my checking account when I don't know the date it is supposed to be deducted from my checking account which could lead to an over-draft charge of $35 dollars minimum.  

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20 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

This is so great.  I didn't know all this.  All textures for the body should be 1024 x 1024.  GREAT!  

 

I've always had a free account as I don't want automatic payments coming out of my checking account.

But, I am far, far from a free player having at least $500 dollars worth of textures alone on this one avatar.  Not to mention all the other items I've bought, which isn't cheap that is for sure.  I don't see what free accounts really have to do with anything because it doesn't mean the person actually lives and/or works in SL in free.  Not at all.  The two are not related.  I simply don't want an auto payment coming out of my checking account when I don't know the date it is supposed to be deducted from my checking account which could lead to an over-draft charge of $35 dollars minimum.  

I spend about 100 USD monthly in SL, Fairre. I'm not sure - and I don't mind them -, but I think a large part of the community are free players. With a forced premium Linden would get rid of them. Perhaps you remember years ago they already tried to get rid of the freebies on the market place. That failed because the resident blocked that plan.

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A large portion of those non-premium members also own private regions and even whole estates or at the very least rent these from other people.  I would hazard a guess that LL isn't going to risk losing those by forcing them to be Premium on top of at least several hundred USD per month.  They'll hit the general user base with increases before then.

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6 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

A large portion of those non-premium members also own private regions and even whole estates or at the very least rent these from other people.  I would hazard a guess that LL isn't going to risk losing those by forcing them to be Premium on top of at least several hundred USD per month.  They'll hit the general user base with increases before then.

Or perhaps a way to make more is to offer premium sim servers for ones interested in being on faster hardware with more ram. Sure there would be those interested in something like that.

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1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Or perhaps a way to make more is to offer premium sim servers for ones interested in being on faster hardware with more ram. Sure there would be those interested in something like that.

Perhaps and maybe that would work out well for both LL and region owners.  Offering something like this is a far cry from forcing them Premium though.

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2 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Perhaps and maybe that would work out well for both LL and region owners.  Offering something like this is a far cry from forcing them Premium though.

True enough on the forcing but they could sweeten the premium pot a lot more then it is now in various ways without adding another level of premium.

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5 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

32 sized?  I dunno about that.

Here is my FIRST BOM eyeshadow made by me.  First photo 256 x 256, second photo 512 x 512.  

I don't think 32 is going to give us a nice lipstick.   Do you have examples of ample 32 x 32 sized texturing for a lipstick?  I would like to see it if you do.  thanks

As mentioned by @Wulfie Reanimator and explained in his entire post is what I meant.

5 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

We want everything in an instant but it is a lag drag especially when people don't even delete their scripts anymore nor even know how to.

But where do you draw the line? Would you say that removing the scripts in a body like Maitreya or Signature needs to be done? Those scripts allow the HUD to communicate to the body to tell it to turn on/off alpha parts.

Now if you say "sure those are fine", what about scripts in clothing that communicate with the body scripts to tell them to turn off/on alpha parts when the clothing piece is added or removed? This means the user doesn't need their body HUD on all the time or needs to find the HUD in the inventory. If both the body scripts and the clothing scripts are deleted or either or, then when you wear that clothing piece again it wont turn on the alpha sections.

Then, say that to be kind to the user the creator sells that clothing piece with all their textures included on it but are UUID's in a script that is linked to a HUD and you can change them. This not only saves the user 100's of L$ in only needing to buy one item but, also gives them numerous outfit choices on the go. If those are deleted then you can't change the texture.

Of course I could then copy those items into my inventory and have numerous copies of the body and clothing with different alpha cuts made and textures selected so that I can wear those without scripts, but then as previously mentioned a large inventory can also impacts sim crossings, avatar rez times etc not to mention just cause inventory clutter.

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6 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

They were making enough to pay for the Sansar development so it would stand to reason that since they no longer are paying for that, they would have a leftover excess of income to invest into S/L development.

That's probably something one can assume. I just fear, if you tell them that they deny it and talk about increasing costs instead.

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2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

But where do you draw the line? Would you say that removing the scripts in a body like Maitreya or Signature needs to be done? Those scripts allow the HUD to communicate to the body to tell it to turn on/off alpha parts.

Now if you say "sure those are fine", what about scripts in clothing that communicate with the body scripts to tell them to turn off/on alpha parts when the clothing piece is added or removed? This means the user doesn't need their body HUD on all the time or needs to find the HUD in the inventory. If both the body scripts and the clothing scripts are deleted or either or, then when you wear that clothing piece again it wont turn on the alpha sections

I did say in my post, stop putting scripts in E-VER-EEEEEE-THING but I did say I am not speaking about the HUDs that come with the bodies or the heads.  I mean we are BOM now and I hope people aren't going to start putting the BOM skin and tattoo symbols into HUDS now too.

The only way to really know how much better an SL experience would be is 'if' someone comes out with an unscripted head and just includes tattoos you put on and take off for example and an unscripted body without anything but the bare bone necessities such as alpha out parts and foot position and then other items you just add and then detach from yourself such as fingernails or eyeliner for some examples.  We all used to dress that way and it is not difficult.  HUDS were made for builders and I already explained why - it's difficult to look through your whole inventory for your textures.  And, HUDS or a texture changer used to be rezzed so you could see a whole bunch of your textures at a glance.  

I also said in one of my posts, SL runs a bit better since BOM...I have about 12 fps more since BOM.  It may not sound like much but it is.  However, if the BOM somehow all gets put into HUDS again we are going to be back at square one.  Have you ever read any of the threads of how people leave because SL has too much lag?  These are not young wet behind the ears non-computer savvy people either who leave because of the lag problem in SL.  These are bright people who say they can't take the lag anymore.

Also, as tinies, we can polygon our hearts out and enjoy some of the beautiful mesh items here instead of a bare-boned ugly club with not much in it.  So, we can't have both - super meshed out avatars and high polygon great looking items.  Not on this viewer.  As a tiny you can have amazing looking clubs with polygons galore.  As a mesh avatar, it's kind of sucky to get together in groups, and I didn't come here to be a hermit.  lol   

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