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1 hour ago, Jackson Redstar said:

can you name any other group of immigrants that are openly allowed to come here and live here illegally, even get hired as government employees in some cases. that privlidge is only afforded to those that immigrate illegally from southern border, and with those of south American nationalities, primarily Hispanic or Latino persons. And before you even try calling me sort of.... I am all for legal immigration, but I am also for equality, but our laws should apply to everyone equally

So you are worried about these immigrants from other countries (not from the southern border) who do not have as many rights?  Which other immigrants and where do u see that Mexicans and South Americans have more rights?   And how would this be tied to identity politics?

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1 hour ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Correct. 

My understanding is that it is the illegal entry into our country that most conservatives have a problem with and that most liberals do not have a problem with taht.  It is the liberals that coined the term "undocumented" to be used instead of "illegal".

 

Well, it kinda depends on *which* so-called conservatives you are talking about. I believe that what you said is true of the "old kind" of conservative, of the type rarely seen these days. Trumpers et al? Totally xenophobic and hateful.

And careful, Lil, it is just this kind of topic that will get you called an ally of the KKK if you don't toe the line. Not sure who delineated the line, but damn, best not look at it any other way than...

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47 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

Well, it kinda depends on *which* so-called conservatives you are talking about. I believe that what you said is true of the "old kind" of conservative, of the type rarely seen these days. Trumpers et al? Totally xenophobic and hateful.

Possibly - though pretty much all the conservatives that I associate with are the "old kind", so to my viewpoint they don't seem all that rare.  Those types have always been more on the quiet side, whereas the Trump extremists are just as loud as the left side extremists.  The ones closer to the middle are typically quieter about most things.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

And careful, Lil, it is just this kind of topic that will get you called an ally of the KKK if you don't toe the line. Not sure who delineated the line, but damn, best not look at it any other way than...

If I gave a damn what anyone called me or claimed I was, I would have retired from public long ago. 

:SwingingFriends:

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I just wanted to add this for the ones arguing that the political sign ban is limited to ad farms..

 

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Wendi Linden
said about 3 hours ago
Hello Tarina,
 
 
Thank you for contacting Second Life Support, and for your patience.
 
We do generally prohibit political advertising in Second Life, including on or around Linden Homes. 
 
If you have any further questions, please let us know.
 
Cheers,
Wendi Linden
Edited by Tarina Sewell
typo ass to add
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4 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Possibly - though pretty much all the conservatives that I associate with are the "old kind", so to my viewpoint they don't seem all that rare.  Those types have always been more on the quiet side, whereas the Trump extremists are just as loud as the left side extremists.  The ones closer to the middle are typically quieter about most things.

 

 

If I gave a damn what anyone called me or claimed I was, I would have retired from public long ago. 

:SwingingFriends:

Experience seems to get lost in the fog these day's it seems..

When I'm leading a trail ride in our mountains and we get in the thick and the fog rolls in so thick that you can't see 10 ft around you in any direction.. The other riders cling to every word the person with experience say's..I don't care what their beliefs are..The last thing on their mind is changing yours..

Sometimes you'll get that rider that will panic and will doubt you and will argue and maybe even get one or two more riled up.. You just have to cut it short and fast in situations like that.."That's fine, just cut loose and go your own way, you're not tied to me"..

I see the news, social medias, politicians and all the groupies as the thick..The fog is just them putting our experience to the test of the trail we've been riding since we were kids..

When I am in the thick and the fog rolls up to where I can't see anymore.. All I have is the good horse and my own experience that got me there and the good horse and my own experience to get me through..

I've had people that have never been to Chicago try and argue with me about what it's like in Chicago..

I've had people that have never been to the south try and argue with me about what it's like in the south..

The older I get the older that kind of thing gets as well.. I just cut it loose anymore..

 

 

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

What kind of rabbit hole have I fallen into??? !!!    But I tell you, this is the cause...the sine qua non...the reason for all our problems in the world...this over-focus on individualism and neurotic fixation on freedom he exhibits:

 

How can you so misunderstand the point he's making?  He's saying if we see people only as members of a group it is easy to make decisions for and about that group that ignore the reality for the individual members of that group.  There is no context here, unfortunately, but since he's talking about the 20th Century specifically, I'd hazard a guess that he's thinking of the atrocities committed in the names of Fascism and Communism.

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15 hours ago, Chroma Starlight said:

You know, listening to this guy, I'm sort of imaging how he would speak for twenty minutes about all the inadequacies of a woman, freshly raped, expressing herself to the world and the cosmos in rage at the violation. He'd spell out sophistries about why she should be utterly ignored, how there's nothing to see here, and that he definitely wasn't the one who helped hold her down and gag her while his buddies just gang raped her.

That is absolutely not what Jordan Peterson is about, and I find such an assertion disturbing.  I've watched a great many of his videos and have found him to be thoughtful, honest, and candid.  The difficulty for some, I believe, is that they are not following his arguments as he states them, even given that they have listened in the first place, but are picking up on a word or two and constructing their own view of what he actually said.

I really don't want to get into the toxic mess that this topic has become; I just wanted to say something in defence of him. 

Cue judgements concerning my political stance, and possibly throw in assertions concerning my nationality.  I'm taking my cue and heading off this horrible stage.

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13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

So you are worried about these immigrants from other countries (not from the southern border) who do not have as many rights?  Which other immigrants and where do u see that Mexicans and South Americans have more rights?   And how would this be tied to identity politics?

This is the problem we have here. Some people just dont understand the difference between legal and illegal. And, this was about Equality under the Law, which you changed the subject to avoid talking about. I cited perfect examples of certain groups of people that were given a pass on having to follow our laws. And liberals do what they do best - if laws are enforced they don't like, they start with the name calling and insults. If you don't like the laws, tell congress then to eliminate all immigration laws. Simple as that

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interesting result in New Zealand parliamentary election tonight

Labour Party (centrist) have won an outright majority - the first time a party has done this under the MMP election system.  Green Party won an electorate seat for the first time.  Maori Party have returned to parliament by winning an electorate seat. New Zealand First Party are out of parliament

National Party (centre right) got mauled, lost the soft left of their support to the Labour Party. Lost the hard right of their support to the ACT Party

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On 10/17/2020 at 3:25 AM, Garnet Psaltery said:
On 10/16/2020 at 1:38 PM, Luna Bliss said:

What kind of rabbit hole have I fallen into??? !!!    But I tell you, this is the cause...the sine qua non...the reason for all our problems in the world...this over-focus on individualism and neurotic fixation on freedom he exhibits:

 

Expand  

How can you so misunderstand the point he's making?

You misunderstand -- I'm not evaluating him from viewing this one video -- I'm saying the video exemplifies his core essence, his psychological wound that causes him to obsess over individual freedom -- this is the core of his bizarre philosophy that in turn negatively affects his audience. Peterson has excessive fears of being 'taken over', of losing his freedom/autonomy, and this guides his entire philosophy in unbelievably bizarre ways.

Sure, he spouts a lot of self-care truisms gleaned from Psychology 101, basic and often helpful in and of itself (like 'clean up your room' as a starting place when someone has neglected taking care of self and life), but he mixes basic Psychology in bizarre ways with a political philosophy appealing to alt-right, 4chan guys who use it to justify discrimination. Not to mention a few observations about lobsters thrown in for good laughs.

The crying video simply lays bare for all to see the essence of the neurosis which underlies his philosophy. It would be like seeing the overly-controlling Mussolini have a temper tantrum because he couldn't control everyone, or seeing the narcissistic Trump wailing in pain because he can't make everybody love him.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time describing it, but the following does a good job of explaining Peterson's destructive philosophy:
https://jacobinmag.com/2020/04/jordan-peterson-capitalism-postmodernism-ideology/
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/19/jordan-peterson-and-fascist-mysticism/
https://www.vox.com/world/2018/3/26/17144166/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-life

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On 10/17/2020 at 5:20 AM, Jackson Redstar said:

This is the problem we have here. Some people just dont understand the difference between legal and illegal. And, this was about Equality under the Law, which you changed the subject to avoid talking about. I cited perfect examples of certain groups of people that were given a pass on having to follow our laws. And liberals do what they do best - if laws are enforced they don't like, they start with the name calling and insults. If you don't like the laws, tell congress then to eliminate all immigration laws. Simple as that

Don't put words in my mouth -- I never said I have one standard for those who break the saw and another for those who don't -- you don't get to be the 'law and order' side and make false accusations toward me with your righteous indignation.  And I wasn't trying to change the subject to avoid talking about equality under the law -- you never made it clear enough just what issues you were concerned about from the get-go and neglected to answer my questions needed for clarification.

As a typical right-winger you frame the debate using ridiculous parameters & memes you assume are truth -- but focusing on law and order in a discussion about immigrants misses the big picture. In your obsession with right-wing concerns regarding law and order you're unable to see what this really is about. You assume it's some kind of "identity politics" where we are letting our 'special brown people' get a pass and circumvent law and order because we (liberals) give special favors to people of color.

The fact is that we use the resources and people in 3rd world countries for our benefit, and the US has been quite abusive about it all around the globe. And when it serves us to be more lenient regarding their legal status because we need Hispanics as maids and crop pickers then we turn a blind eye to what's legal. But when a demagogue like Trump comes along and needs to whip up his base by causing his minions to 'fear the foreigner' and uses this dynamic to divide us against each other (the 'divide and conquer' strategies typical of autocrats), then suddenly he manufactures a HUGE band of invading marauders on our southern borders. I mean a caravan for God's sake, and Mexican r-a-p-i-s-t-s. 

So you see here, Jackson, you've bought into two right-wing memes leveled at the 'left' -- accusing us of not respecting law and order when we value law and order just as much as anyone on the 'right', and accusing us of "identity politics" by imagining we are coddling the person of color by letting them off the hook while punishing the poor white guy via making him adhere to the law. The fact that immigrants wanting a place in the US should be treated with dignity and respect seems to fly right by you. 

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On 10/17/2020 at 5:46 AM, Mollymews said:

interesting result in New Zealand parliamentary election tonight

Labour Party (centrist) have won an outright majority - the first time a party has done this under the MMP election system.  Green Party won an electorate seat for the first time.  Maori Party have returned to parliament by winning an electorate seat. New Zealand First Party are out of parliament

National Party (centre right) got mauled, lost the soft left of their support to the Labour Party. Lost the hard right of their support to the ACT Party

I really like seeing an example of a sane country given these crazy times....  :)

BTW, there was an article about NZ in The Atlantic yesterday:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/10/jacinda-ardern-new-zealand-election/616753/

 

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

The fact is that we use the resources and people in 3rd world countries for our benefit, and the US has been quite abusive about it all around the globe. And when it serves us to be more lenient regarding their legal status because we need Hispanics as maids and crop pickers then we turn a blind eye to what's legal. But when a demagogue like Trump comes along and needs to whip up his base by causing his minions to 'fear the foreigner' and uses this dynamic to divide us against each other (the 'divide and conquer' strategies typical of autocrats), then suddenly he manufactures a HUGE band of invading marauders on our southern borders. I mean a caravan for God's sake, and Mexican r-a-p-i-s-t-s. 

 

Again, legal and not legal. It is a pretty easy concept. If people start robbing banks because 'they want a better life' should we give them a pass on that too? Either we have immigration laws - or we don't. Also you need a little civics lesson The executive branch carries out and enforces laws.  They don't make laws. Congress does that. And at the time Trump was elected, current laws still said it is illegal to come to to the USA with out proper documentation and in places other than ports of entry. No where in those laws was exemptions for "maids and crop pickers" If you dont like the laws change them, but don't elected someone who promises they will just ignore them

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24 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

Again, legal and not legal. It is a pretty easy concept. If people start robbing banks because 'they want a better life' should we give them a pass on that too? Either we have immigration laws - or we don't. Also you need a little civics lesson The executive branch carries out and enforces laws.  They don't make laws. Congress does that. And at the time Trump was elected, current laws still said it is illegal to come to to the USA with out proper documentation and in places other than ports of entry. No where in those laws was exemptions for "maids and crop pickers" If you dont like the laws change them, but don't elected someone who promises they will just ignore them

Fine, Jackson, if you want to keep your panties in a twist over this non-issue have at it. Never mind that the Repubs haven't cared about the legality of immigrants when it was expedient -- when it lined their pockets. But now, when the US is poised (if not already) to become a country where people of color are the majority and the poor little white guys in the minority won't be able to keep their wealth so easily (acquired from their exploitation of the brown people), hey lets whip up the base with fears of invasion from the southern border, and get all huffy about law and order and equate people crossing the border (from countries WE DEVASTATED with our invasions and exploitation) to mass murderers and bank robbers.

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

 But now, when the US is poised (if not already) to become a country where people of color are the majority and the poor little white guys in the minority won't be able to keep their wealth so easily (acquired from their exploitation of the brown people), hey lets whip up the base with fears of invasion from the southern border, and get all huffy about law and order and equate people crossing the border (from countries WE DEVASTATED with our invasions and exploitation) to mass murderers and bank robbers.

It's not quite so simple with your identity politics Luna. Consider this from an economic standpoint:

Quote

 

Both low- and high-skilled natives are affected by the influx of immigrants. But because a disproportionate percentage of immigrants have few skills, it is low-skilled American workers, including many blacks and Hispanics, who have suffered most from this wage dip. The monetary loss is sizable. The typical high school dropout earns about $25,000 annually. According to census data, immigrants admitted in the past two decades lacking a high school diploma have increased the size of the low-skilled workforce by roughly 25 percent. As a result, the earnings of this particularly vulnerable group dropped by between $800 and $1,500 each year.

We don’t need to rely on complex statistical calculations to see the harm being done to some workers. Simply look at how employers have reacted. A decade ago, Crider Inc., a chicken processing plant in Georgia, was raided by immigration agents, and 75 percent of its workforce vanished over a single weekend. Shortly after, Crider placed an ad in the local newspaper announcing job openings at higher wages. Similarly, the flood of recent news reports on abuse of the H-1B visa program shows that firms will quickly dismiss their current tech workforce when they find cheaper immigrant workers.

Immigration redistributes wealth from those who compete with immigrants to those who use immigrants—from the employee to the employer.

But that’s only one side of the story. Somebody’s lower wage is always somebody else’s higher profit. In this case, immigration redistributes wealth from those who compete with immigrants to those who use immigrants—from the employee to the employer. And the additional profits are so large that the economic pie accruing to all natives actually grows. I estimate the current “immigration surplus”—the net increase in the total wealth of the native population—to be about$50 billion annually. But behind that calculation is a much larger shift from one group of Americans to another: The total wealth redistribution from the native losers to the native winners is enormous, roughly a half-trillion dollars a year. Immigrants, too, gain substantially; their total earnings far exceed what their income would have been had they not migrated. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/trump-clinton-immigration-economy-unemployment-jobs-214216

 

So the net effect from immigration is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Isn't that what you wanted to avoid? The supposed rich white guys just benefit from all the illegal immigration because they can hire them for less than they could the american people of color. Simple supply and demand, the more workers, the less they have to be paid because there is a glut of them available and unfortunately it is the lowest skilled American workers who get the shaft, the ones who can afford it the least.

 

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On 10/16/2020 at 6:09 PM, Tarina Sewell said:

I just wanted to add this for the ones arguing that the political sign ban is limited to ad farms..

 

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Wendi Linden
said about 3 hours ago
Hello Tarina,
 
 
Thank you for contacting Second Life Support, and for your patience.
 
We do generally prohibit political advertising in Second Life, including on or around Linden Homes. 
 
If you have any further questions, please let us know.
 
Cheers,
Wendi Linden

I had pointed out, in one of these threads, that while someone might get away with a political sign on their regular mainland or private estate, the Bellisseria covenant was recently updated to specifically exclude any political stuff.  

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13 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I had pointed out, in one of these threads, that while someone might get away with a political sign on their regular mainland or private estate, the Bellisseria covenant was recently updated to specifically exclude any political stuff.  

 

CD3549E3-D27F-4645-A288-5938C09F1B43.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:
2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

 But now, when the US is poised (if not already) to become a country where people of color are the majority and the poor little white guys in the minority won't be able to keep their wealth so easily (acquired from their exploitation of the brown people), hey lets whip up the base with fears of invasion from the southern border, and get all huffy about law and order and equate people crossing the border (from countries WE DEVASTATED with our invasions and exploitation) to mass murderers and bank robbers.

It's not quite so simple with your identity politics Luna. Consider this from an economic standpoint:

The discussion hasn't been about whether immigration in and of itself is a good thing, at least not until you brought it up. We've been discussing whether it's fair, or even true, that illegal immigrants aren't criminally prosecuted for doing something illegal (being undocumented) to the same degree that other criminals who break the law are. Jackson says they aren't because of "identity politics" perpetuated by the Left. I say "identity politics" has nothing to do with it. The issue is exploiting immigrants when it benefits us (Dems & Repubs alike) and ignoring the legality of their status when a greater benefit takes precedence (or a creepy orange guy tries to make it so).

IDENTITY POLITICS: A label placed on historically disadvantaged groups when they or their supporters DARE to insist that the marginalized group be treated equally. In other words, those assigning the label are attempting to shut the exploited up or dismiss their valid concerns.

But to your point, is immigration a good thing? You referenced it not being good for the low-wage earner, but it's certainly not good for those who want to stay in power in the US at this time -- the new autocrats headed by Trump.
Trump and his autocrat minions are getting super-strict about brown people immigrating here because he wisely assumes they don't vote for bigots, as the brown people overwhelmingly vote Democrat. And the brown people are growing even without immigrants -- brown gene is dominant -- those poor white guys are a shakin'  lol

Would immigration lower the wages of the already working poor in the US?  Well it would if we don't regulate and continue to support policies which allow exploitation -- immigrant vs poor US resident would make no difference if we had a guaranteed minimum wage. No employer could exploit workers then via hiring immigrants below minimum wage to extract greater profit from them. Problem solved. IT IS NOT THE EXPLOITED WORKER CAUSING THE PROBLEMS -- IT IS THE CORPORATIONS AND GOVERNMENT REGULATORS WHO SEEK PROFIT VIA FORCING LOWER CLASSES TO FIGHT EACH OTHER FOR THE CRUMBS.

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7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The discussion hasn't been about whether immigration in and of itself is a good thing, at least not until you brought it up. We've been discussing whether it's fair, or even true, that illegal immigrants aren't criminally prosecuted for doing something illegal (being undocumented) to the same degree that other criminals who break the law are. Jackson says they aren't because of "identity politics" perpetuated by the Left. I say "identity politics" has nothing to do with it. The issue is exploiting immigrants when it benefits us (Dems & Repubs alike) and ignoring the legality of their status when a greater benefit takes precedence (or a creepy orange guy tries to make it so).

IDENTITY POLITICS: A label placed on historically disadvantaged groups when they or their supporters DARE to insist that the marginalized group be treated equally. In other words, those assigning the label are attempting to shut the exploited up or dismiss their valid concerns.

But to your point, is immigration a good thing? You referenced it not being good for the low-wage earner, but it's certainly not good for those who want to stay in power in the US at this time -- the new autocrats headed by Trump.
Trump and his autocrat minions are getting super-strict about brown people immigrating here because he wisely assumes they don't vote for bigots, as the brown people overwhelmingly vote Democrat. And the brown people are growing even without immigrants -- brown gene is dominant -- those poor white guys are a shakin'  lol

Would immigration lower the wages of the already working poor in the US?  Well it would if we don't regulate and continue to support policies which allow exploitation -- immigrant vs poor US resident would make no difference if we had a guaranteed minimum wage. No employer could exploit workers then via hiring immigrants below minimum wage to extract greater profit from them. Problem solved. IT IS NOT THE EXPLOITED WORKER CAUSING THE PROBLEMS -- IT IS THE CORPORATIONS AND GOVERNMENT REGULATORS WHO SEEK PROFIT VIA FORCING LOWER CLASSES TO FIGHT EACH OTHER FOR THE CRUMBS.

TL;DR White people bad.  🙄

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1 minute ago, Gage Wirefly said:

TL;DR White people bad.  🙄

White people aren't bad, they just happen to be the ones with a certain color skin where industrialization began and so initially had the power to exploit land and people with these tools. Because of this, they have more wealth. 

I don't mind if some have more wealth and power -- not asking for total equality -- but hey, people are starving, dying. Have a heart, white people -- give a little more. Nobody needs multiple billions in this world.

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