Checking in after a long hiatus - Still not interested in returning because...

[Qie Niangao]

6 hours ago, davidventer said:

Rather than all these dodgy, ugly, and poorly coded 3rd-party viewers; allow other developers to create plugins/mods for the default viewer that can extend its functionality, adding new buttons and functions. This could also be an opportunity for devs to monetize said plugins. Make a marketplace section for viewer plugins and have the default viewer automatically download and activate these plugins in the viewer once a plugin is purchased from the marketplace. Create another section in the viewer preferences for plugins that list all the purchased plugins (think steam DLC/workshop style interface) where users can then disable/enable these plugins along with a link to the marketplace for finding new plugins. 

Similarly, I've long dreamt of a supported "viewer-side scripting" plug-in but I always come back to this question: Why hasn't a third party viewer provided such a "plug in" architecture, if there's demand for it? We got RLV, that's about it. There used to be some skinning thing, too, for the main viewer as well as third party viewers, and AFAIK it may still be supported, but I'm not sure it ever got much use -- and it's kinda tangential here, admittedly.

While we're on this tangent anyway: Alwin is quite correct that the previous attempt at a "lite" viewer failed miserably, but done right it would have been valuable. What I think we learned from that experience was that such a viewer can only succeed by investing more design resources and ingenuity than a complete redesign of the existing UI (which Viewer 2 demonstrated to be a bridge too far, at least if performed by an expensive but rank amateur consulting design studio).

Anyway, I'm with you on 2FA, and also on the need for some rationalization of the avatar customization process -- like a completely new avatar (probably driven by a complete replacement of animations) where all customization controls presented to the user actually function on the avatar being customized.

I think Vulkan is already in the works, and I'm cautiously hopeful the Metal wasteland can be mostly hidden by off-the-shelf Vulkan-to-Metal libraries (e.g., MoltenVK). From a business standpoint, it's really difficult to justify separately supporting MacOS by building and maintaining a native Metal implementation.

[Nick0678]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

Similarly, I've long dreamt of a supported "viewer-side scripting" plug-in but I always come back to this question: Why hasn't a third party viewer provided such a "plug in" architecture, if there's demand for it? We got RLV, that's about it.

@Henri Beauchamp 's Cool VL Viewer implements Lua (Lua v5.4 since v1.28.0.1) scripting/automation.

http://sldev.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1736

 

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

There used to be some skinning thing, too, for the main viewer as well as third party viewers, and AFAIK it may still be supported, but I'm not sure it ever got much use ..

 

Every viewer can be skinned/customized regardless if there's a dedicated utility or not for that job,  just needs some "entry level" XML knowledge/understanding.

They do come with a standard set or just one skin for practical reasons in regards to support and stability (and of course it saves time).

 

Custom skins just never get published.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Nick0678

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

The hard part is working out what is core and what isn't.

Logging in and out is core - everything else is optional (TP included

[davidventer]

6 hours ago, Nick0678 said:

It's a bit late for such stuff, SL is 17 years old now

It’s never too late. Code isn’t written in stone. It comes down to whether or not Linden Lab wants Second Life to stay relevant, modern and accessible. Judging by their recent actions, they do... and we all want them to. So, I’m just sharing my input in regards to what might help with that. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Mollymews]

7 hours ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Logging in and out is core - everything else is optional (TP included

there is that 😸

[Nikkesa]

I'd like to throw in HTML-based (or some kind of UI system integrated) on top, to replace the insane server-side scripted-3D-prim-based GUI that currently exists. The client even _comes_ with a UI, yet everyone has to use prim objects?

Even a prim object that ran HTML on one surface that can interface with scripts/client, even via emailwould work (though its looking like this might be possible already, perhaps?)

[Gage Wirefly]

# 3 and # 8

 

[Qie Niangao]

4 hours ago, Nikkesa said:

I'd like to throw in HTML-based (or some kind of UI system integrated) on top, to replace the insane server-side scripted-3D-prim-based GUI that currently exists. The client even _comes_ with a UI, yet everyone has to use prim objects?

Even a prim object that ran HTML on one surface that can interface with scripts/client, even via emailwould work (though its looking like this might be possible already, perhaps?)

I think this is describing "Shared Media" with a little javascript glue. If so, it's very doable and it's done sometimes for complex interfaces, but there are security considerations because the scripts will know the viewing machine's IP address.

There's nothing in the viewer UI itself, however, that interacts with Shared Media scripts; rather, those scripts interact with the SL world (including other scripts) and with the web.

[Jackson Redstar]

I know Strawberry Linden is doing /has done alot of tutorial type vids as well as many other residents. But while I havent been new for a long long time, starting on SL can be like opening Photoshop  when you want to edit a photo for the first time...

Case in point, I still don't get BOM and SL ain't new to me at all!

[Silent Mistwalker]

On 10/1/2020 at 2:28 AM, Mollymews said:

is interesting what we would include as core in a viewer and what we would consider as non-core to be added as an optional plugin

going thru the Linden viewer as an exercise then the non-core capabilities for me are. Non-core meaning to me, that I don't use them:

- Destinations Guide, Events

- Avatar - choose new

- Grid Status

- Voice morphing

- Picks, Classifieds and Marketplace listings..

- HowTo..., and everything else on the Help menu except for About Second Life

i pretty much use all the rest on a reasonably regular basis

some people would consider the above core to them. Like merchants with Picks, Classifieds and Marketplace listings. New people with Destinations Guide, Events, Avatar, for example. Grid Status for at least venue owners, landlords, estate owners

the idea of plugins, as an idea, is not bad. The hard part is working out what is core and what isn't. Which is pretty subjective

 

 

A thought. Do we really want Linden Lab to be the ones to determine what is core and what isn't? 

There should never have been a need for separate mesh bodies, etc. All things LL should have done years ago but Facebook! Sansar! blah blah blah. 

Yet, we are still here because there really isn't anything close to SL out there other than Active Worlds. It's even older than SL by 8 years and isn't even true 3D. It's 2.5D. After SL, there is just no going back to 2.5.

[Aishagain]

@Jackson Redstar:  Re BoM... imagine you would prefer to wear your pants inside your trousers...or maybe you ARE  Superman...THAT is the why BoM.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

47 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

there really isn't anything close to SL out there other than Active Worlds.

Funny you should say that, I discovered it last year and joined up, with some difficulty because they for some reason insisted my ISP (the largest in the UK) was such a major provider of spam that they were blocking it.

Having joined and managed to log in, all I can say is 

I came, I saw, I tiptoed away

 

50 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Do we really want Linden Lab to be the ones to determine what is core and what isn't? 

I think it's part of their responsibility as the people who initiated and maintain SL to indicate what they regard is the bare minimum and set the standards.

However, I have just realised the main stumbling block to the idea of plugins: LL some time ago stipulated that TPVs could not provide differing experiences to the main SL viewer. I forget the precise definitions, but there were older TPV features such as client identification that LL vetoed because it was leading to some unpleasantness inworld. Any plugins would need to be approved by LL first, I suspect.

[Whirly Fizzle]

Can I haz ur stuff this time?
I missed out the last 534 times you rage quit.

[davidventer]

52 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

Can I haz ur stuff this time?
I missed out the last 534 times you rage quit.

No. MINE! I’ll be back. And then rage quit AGAIN when LL can’t keep up. Rinse and repeat. You know how it is. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 🤣 

 

[Mollymews]

2 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

A thought. Do we really want Linden Lab to be the ones to determine what is core and what isn't?

in the context of modular plugins

if say the viewer was built in a way where everything was a module. The core viewer would be the modules that Linden packaged for new signups.  Only Linden could decide what these modules would be

[Mollymews]

On 10/2/2020 at 12:29 AM, Nick0678 said:

 

Custom skins just never get published.

if there isn't already and I just haven't seen it, then I would quite like a post named something like: Show Your Viewer Skins

i quite like to see what people make

[Aishagain]

@Profaitchikenz Haiku: I guess you are referring to the LL mantra of "Shared Experience", which they recently blew out of the water with the EEP farrago.

[Mollymews]

10 minutes ago, Aishagain said:

I guess you are referring to the LL mantra of "Shared Experience", which they recently blew out of the water with the EEP farrago.

the same was said when Windlight came.  Lots of people were concerned about Windlight being the end of the world as they knew it. Which was true. It was the end of the world as they knew it

EEP the same.  It will end the Windlight world as we knew it, except for users of some TPVs.  I read that Henri is preserving Windlight (as a user selectable option) in Cool VL viewer for those who want it

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, Mollymews said:

in the context of modular plugins

if say the viewer was built in a way where everything was a module. The core viewer would be the modules that Linden packaged for new signups.  Only Linden could decide what these modules would be

That didn't answer the question.

[Mollymews]

44 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

That didn't answer the question.

the question was: do we want Linden to decide what is core

the package that Linden decided for new sign-ups would be considered core I would think.  Even if for example the [inworld] render module could be unplugged from this as a step toward making a text-based bot viewer

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Mollymews
[inworld render

[Nick0678]

13 hours ago, Mollymews said:

if there isn't already and I just haven't seen it, then I would quite like a post named something like: Show Your Viewer Skins

i quite like to see what people make

Yes i also searched the SL forums back in summer if there was such a thread, didn't see any.

Anyway here's how it looks.

 

 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

On 9/29/2020 at 7:07 PM, davidventer said:

3. Old, outdated, deprecated graphics frameworks need to GO. Still using OpenGL? Really? STILL? Heard of Vulkan and Metal? Google It. Hire some developers to make a Vulkan Viewer for Windows and a Metal Viewer for Mac. And no, please don't go the MoltenVK route for Mac, it's trash. If you could afford the resources to develop the disappointment that is Sansar, surely you can afford to hire some developers to re-code the SL viewer for the Vulkan and Metal API's.

4. Mobile Viewer for Android and iOS. Why is this still not a thing? If you can't get it done, at least create a mobile app with a mobile-friendly my.secondlife.com interface running in the app, and maybe some live direct chat / IM capabilities and marketplace integration with a mobile -friendly marketplace view. The fact that SL still doesn't have a decent, official mobile client or companion app, or even a mobile-friendly website in 2020 is just baffling. Do the guys at the lab not own smartphones or tablets? 

These two are at least somewhat tangible right now. A mobile client is in the works (text-only to start with), and LL got 3(?) graphics gurus back from the Sansar team when it was sold.

[Whirly Fizzle]

2 hours ago, Nick0678 said:

Yes i also searched the SL forums back in summer if there was such a thread, didn't see any.

Anyway here's how it looks.

 

 

Very nice!

Would you be willing to share the skin files with me?  I love to give this skin a try.

[Aishagain]

@MollymewsI wasn't dissing EEP, it's pretty good at some things though others look utter cr*p.  No...I refer to the fact that releaseing EEP that was available to only a portion of the grid population broke the "shared experience" rules, which LL used to beat on some TPVs.

I do however remember that the introduction of Windlight rendered my less that 6 month old PC obsolete at a stroke for SL (or.to be fair its GPU).

[Aishagain]

I am puzzled as to why I am no  longer able edit my own posts.  Has something changed on the Fora?