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Appropiating Culture in SL If you're a tattoo maker with ethnic products for sale, please read.


Song Indigo
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Just now, RowanMinx said:

Good luck with that.  

Thanks, because it's about time we created education around what's culturally OK and what's not.  Inspiring from other cultures can be OK but it's about researching what's OK and what's not ok. Educate yourself before you end up in the wrong situation next time - i'm not the one to tell you what to do, i'm the white kid lol - but i'm trying to educate my ass before i end up in the wrong situation all over again. 

:) 

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3 hours ago, Tokyo Enyo said:

not if you're of the culture that in question is being appropriated. 
I'm an expat american, i'm not going to make a Maori tattoo in my shop.
Putting a moku on my chin unless there was a specific reason that in someone allowed me to (and even then i'd be hesitant) i would never in RL, why would i in SL.

Appropriation is different than  Flattering imitation - and Celtic braids are different than box braids.  This is 2020.
Let's freaking learn from crap, and just start listening to our peers.

I could see if someone who was Maori was making them, but i'd be hesitant to let that fly in the game because then you'd see people wearing sacred art and whakapapa being used in the incorrect manner (i swear i think i just used whakapapa in the wrong context, so the person who started this thread - know i'm sorry, and i've lived in NZ close to 20 years and i'm aware roughly what whakapapa means, and i'm whiter than white :(

I have a TRIBAL STYLE tattoo on my arm in RL, but tha's because it's not tribal, it's not even based on anything but a design i styled myself for my novels/comics i was trying to write - and still am.  The thing looks more like a gothic DNA strand, and i brought that into SL to sell and share with people. 

There is forms of culture you can share and enjoy, and celebrate without ripping it off without permission.

Seeing as you spent 20 years in NZ you know about Kirituhi tattoos then, yes? 

Those are Māori-style tattoos either created by or made for a non-Māori person. They have no special meanings. They are fully acceptable to have. So, as long as a Tattoo is not called Māori it should be fine to have in SL. 

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2 hours ago, Tokyo Enyo said:

Thanks, because it's about time we created education around what's culturally OK and what's not.  Inspiring from other cultures can be OK but it's about researching what's OK and what's not ok. Educate yourself before you end up in the wrong situation next time - i'm not the one to tell you what to do, i'm the white kid lol - but i'm trying to educate my ass before i end up in the wrong situation all over again. 

:)

So, in a world when you can literally be anyone or anything, you think having a tattoo is appropriation? What about a white person IRL having an African, Asian, Native, or Hispanic av? What about the reverse? 

Its SL, nothing is real. 

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2 hours ago, Tokyo Enyo said:

So yea, we're not creating issues, we're trying to SOLVE some by creating education around it

Exactly!  and that is why I have not made any further comments on this issue since my first one in support of the original poster.   I did not want to get into a lot of argument with ignorant and self righteous people.  No point to it.

Edited by Tazzie Tuque
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3 hours ago, Tokyo Enyo said:

because it's about time we created education around what's culturally OK and what's not.
 

yes the world was just waiting for this ... as i said in a earlier post, first clean your home, closets and habbits from everything thats not your culture... than start educating.

People like what you preach áre the issue.
 

Edited by Alwin Alcott
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4 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Seeing as you spent 20 years in NZ you know about Kirituhi tattoos then, yes? 

Those are Māori-style tattoos either created by or made for a non-Māori person. They have no special meanings. They are fully acceptable to have. So, as long as a Tattoo is not called Māori it should be fine to have in SL. 

kirituhi literally means skin art

and you are right, kirituhi has no meaning to a maori person who views it. If a person was to run around in SL wearing the moko of Hongi Hika then I probably start laughing and think what a egg!

Edited by Mollymews
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18 hours ago, Tokyo Enyo said:

Thanks, because it's about time we created education around what's culturally OK and what's not.

And in this new utopian world of the "ministry of cultural purity and proper ethnic conduct standards"; where do I as a mix raced person go?

Got a gas chamber somewhere for me to report to for not being 'OK' enough by the very fact of my genetic existence?

 

I know you think you're not in that dark space I outline... but what is the endgame of this mission of stamping out cultural turf for everyone to fit into?

That endgame is 'cultural puritanism'... and it's a very dark space to be in.

 

Multiculturalism was a thing for a reason. We need to be coming together not setting up carved out spaces.

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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On 11/2/2020 at 3:37 AM, Tokyo Enyo said:

Thanks, because it's about time we created education around what's culturally OK and what's not.

I invite all people like Tokyo to come over to germany. It will feel like paradise for you.

"We" even talk about things like renaming streets, because right now there are more streets named after males than females. Thats a scandal! ;)
We also renamed sweets, as their name was linked to an ethnic group. Another chocolate brand changed their logo, and a old local drug store is targeted because of its name, too.

And please bring all your like-minded friends, too and make it the perfect place, where no bad and mean words harms anyone anymore.
Meanwhile, the sane ones will flee and build a wall around your paradise to make sure, no one will ever spoil your perfect world, whats just held together by brittle snowflakes.

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On 11/3/2020 at 9:46 AM, Pussycat Catnap said:

And in this new utopian world of the "ministry of cultural purity and proper ethnic conduct standards"; where do I as a mix raced person go?

Got a gas chamber somewhere for me to report to for not being 'OK' enough by the very fact of my genetic existence?

 

I know you think you're not in that dark space I outline... but what is the endgame of this mission of stamping out cultural turf for everyone to fit into?

That endgame is 'cultural puritanism'... and it's a very dark space to be in.

 

Multiculturalism was a thing for a reason. We need to be coming together not setting up carved out spaces.

It's not about carving out spaces, so if i sound like that i'm sorry.  It's always about education.
Good god i'd never want to throw a mixed race person out just because they "ARE THE ROUND PEG FOR A SQUARE HOLE" (bad and really old analogy) .

It's always about learning, it's always about existing.
It's never about pushing people out. 

If you're mixed race, then you celebrate all of your heritage, why would it be incorrect for you to do otherwise? 
There will never BE a utopia anywhere sadly, but it's never going to be perfect no matter what we do..
And "balance" doesn't always help either.

I guess i'm too nice? 
I just want there to be more equality in SL, and there hasn't been - and frankly, it's getting more and more like RL the longer i stay on it - and there's no telling what people are gonna try next. 

The original discussion was over a MAORI and Pasifika issue, and i stand by it - I live in New Zealand, and cultural appropriation in the format of not understanding OR CARING about the culture something comes from - is a HUGE deal, and academically and otherwise - If this was put outside the game and someone was a celebrity that was 100% white and no pasifika or maori heritage at all - and had a MOKU they'd be shunned if not sued. 

We just aren't fighting for cultural progress because "IT"S JUST A GAME" people scream, and then when we say that people get mad back - So what's everyone's problem then?

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1 hour ago, Tokyo Enyo said:

It's not about carving out spaces, so if i sound like that i'm sorry.  It's always about education.
Good god i'd never want to throw a mixed race person out just because they "ARE THE ROUND PEG FOR A SQUARE HOLE" (bad and really old analogy) .

It's always about learning, it's always about existing.
It's never about pushing people out. 

If you're mixed race, then you celebrate all of your heritage, why would it be incorrect for you to do otherwise? 
There will never BE a utopia anywhere sadly, but it's never going to be perfect no matter what we do..
And "balance" doesn't always help either.

I guess i'm too nice? 
I just want there to be more equality in SL, and there hasn't been - and frankly, it's getting more and more like RL the longer i stay on it - and there's no telling what people are gonna try next. 

The original discussion was over a MAORI and Pasifika issue, and i stand by it - I live in New Zealand, and cultural appropriation in the format of not understanding OR CARING about the culture something comes from - is a HUGE deal, and academically and otherwise - If this was put outside the game and someone was a celebrity that was 100% white and no pasifika or maori heritage at all - and had a MOKU they'd be shunned if not sued. 

We just aren't fighting for cultural progress because "IT"S JUST A GAME" people scream, and then when we say that people get mad back - So what's everyone's problem then?

OK, what about Celtic designs? They have just as much ancestry and meanings to them as Moku do. Should we get DNA tests in SL for someone before they are allowed to purchase a tattoo? 

How exactly are you going to sue someone over a tattoo design? If its 100% original, you have zero chance in court. The Maori people dont own the copyright to facial tattoos. Many many tribes have done and are still doing them. The Inuit in Alaska have very similar patterns to theirs, as do those in the Middle East, India, Asia and ancient Europeans. Better start the Class action lawsuit soon. 

ETA, pretty racist of you to target only people that are 100% white.. Tyson has a tribal facial tattoo.. Pretty sure he has ZERO maori heritage.. 

 

Edited by Drake1 Nightfire
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1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Tyson has a tribal facial tattoo

assuming you mean Mike Tyson the boxer

if so then the tattoo on his face is kirituhi. Like everyone who gets a tattoo then this probably means something to him, but Mr Tyson's kirituhi is not moko because it is unbalanced

this form of unbalanced skin art is similar to Chakotay in Star Trek. I think there was a episode where Chakotay learned the meaning of his kirituhi, can't remember exactly which one tho

 

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What if a person isn't educated in their own culture? Do they get a free pass just because of their blood? And do only "foreigners" get judged for not being educated enough? It sure sounds that way here.

Educating oneself is a positive thing. But demanding it from others before they're allowed to interact with another culture.. doesn't that just make people want to stay away from it? That seems very divisive.

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On 10/30/2020 at 7:01 AM, Pussycat Catnap said:

"Appropriation" has become nothing more than a backlash against diversity masking itself as social justice when it's really a call for segregation.

This.  This is exactly the impression I get when I see/hear people getting onto their high horses about cultural appropriation, especially when it's relating to a culture to which they themselves do not belong.

Stay in your own box, is basically what they're saying, and I believe that's an attitude born out of racism. It's taking us back to this;

segregated-water-fountains.jpg

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1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

assuming you mean Mike Tyson the boxer

if so then the tattoo on his face is kirituhi. Like everyone who gets a tattoo then this probably means something to him, but Mr Tyson's kirituhi is not moko because it is unbalanced

this form of unbalanced skin art is similar to Chakotay in Star Trek. I think there was a episode where Chakotay learned the meaning of his kirituhi, can't remember exactly which one tho

 

So, if a maori inspired tribal tattoo done on a non Maori is acceptable because its called kirituhi, WHAT IS THE COMPLAINT HERE!?!?!? 

Where does it stop? Should all native peoples be forced to stay as their ancestors? "My culture created ------ but you cant use it! Its OUR culture." "My ancestors tightly braided their hair, AND NO ONE ELSE CAN DO SO!" "My ancestors, like many around the world, tattooed their bodies and they had meanings, BUT SINCE ITS MY ANCESTORS NO ONE ELSE CAN DO IT!!!" 

Everything has been done by someone else at some point. Stop worrying over the little things. 

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On 9/23/2020 at 12:27 AM, Song Indigo said:

After much thought, I've decided to make this post because I'd like designers and creators to understand something

Thank you for your post, I’ve learned something from it and also from watching this thread play out. 

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8 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

So, if a maori inspired tribal tattoo done on a non Maori is acceptable because its called kirituhi, WHAT IS THE COMPLAINT HERE!?!?!? 

Where does it stop? Should all native peoples be forced to stay as their ancestors? "My culture created ------ but you cant use it! Its OUR culture." "My ancestors tightly braided their hair, AND NO ONE ELSE CAN DO SO!" "My ancestors, like many around the world, tattooed their bodies and they had meanings, BUT SINCE ITS MY ANCESTORS NO ONE ELSE CAN DO IT!!!" 

Everything has been done by someone else at some point. Stop worrying over the little things. 

Song asked that people not sell skin art as moko when it is not moko and gave reasons why

i replied that is better to not waste our time on telling people to not do the wrong thing. Better for us a people to concentrate on producing products that are authentic

authenticity is something that can't be faked. Is either authentic or it isn't. Is moko or it isn't

am not sure who you mean when you say to stop worrying over little things. I am not worried. Authentic is authentic, copies are copies, fakes are fakes. And not everything a person tattoos on their face is moko. like in the case of Mike Tyson

 

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18 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

Song asked that people not sell skin art as moko when it is not moko and gave reasons why

i replied that is better to not waste our time on telling people to not do the wrong thing. Better for us a people to concentrate on producing products that are authentic

authenticity is something that can't be faked. Is either authentic or it isn't. Is moko or it isn't

am not sure who you mean when you say to stop worrying over little things. I am not worried. Authentic is authentic, copies are copies, fakes are fakes. And not everything a person tattoos on their face is moko. like in the case of Mike Tyson

 

That's just it, Song said she didn't want people selling non authentic Maori tattoos in SL that weren't even Maori tattoos, just called that. So she is pissed at keyword spam? Does it really insult the Maori people if a tattoo in SL is tagged as such if its inspired by not made by? 
She wants tattoo artists that make inspired by tattoos to "give back to those communities from which you source your designs" So if i make a celtic tattoo is should donate some of my profits to some foundation in the Isles? 

I wasn't saying you shouldn't worry about the little things. I know you know there are far bigger issues in the world than tattoos in SL.

Edited by Drake1 Nightfire
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On 9/23/2020 at 1:27 AM, Song Indigo said:

1) Please research the tattoo you are selling in your store.  First of all, have you attributed it to the correct culture?  I can tell at a glance if a tattoo belongs to our artists or not - and btw, our artists train for years to be able to gift their skills to the receiver, so it's a damn insult to have their designs ripped off in SL or any virtual world.

2) Please cease the practice of ripping off designs off Google.

3) As a consumer, please pause and think BEFORE you buy that cool tattoo inworld.  Do you want to facilitate the destruction of a culture?  That's what you're doing if you buy that cool tattoo.

4) If you upload a tattoo for personal use for your avatar, and not for sale, can you speak to it with knowledge?  If you meet me inworld, I will put you through your paces, LOL!  Be aware, hahah.

1. You really need to relax a bit. They call the Maori because thats the common term for that style of tattoo. PC or not. 

2. I fully agree here.. but dont stop with designs, stop ripping off images from Google.

3. Seriously? A tattoo in SL is going to destroy the Maori culture? 

4. Are you really going to harass someone in SL over a tattoo? Good grief. What happened to live and let live? My body, my choice? My world, my imagination? 

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20 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I wasn't saying you shouldn't worry about the little things. I know you know there are far bigger issues in the world than tattoos in SL.

Song can speak for herself

but on your general point that stuff is stuff is stuff and what does it all matter really. It doesn't matter to those who are content, happy even, to adorn themselves in facsimiles, copies, fakes

and if doesn't matter to you that people do this then why bother to keep on repeating yourself

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16 hours ago, Tokyo Enyo said:

Good god i'd never want to throw a mixed race person out just because they "ARE THE ROUND PEG FOR A SQUARE HOLE" (bad and really old analogy) .

If you're mixed race, then you celebrate all of your heritage, why would it be incorrect for you to do otherwise?

You miss my first post in this thread? Go look it up.

My life has been a repeat play of people calling me out for appropriating MYSELF because I don't LOOK like the label they apply to something due to  'race purity' concepts...

It can often literally play in a bounce. I will get called out for appropriating something, and then next person I meet will call me out for NOT doing what the first one said I was doing... often with both of them being extremely hostile about it. I've got almost 50 years of this stupidity aimed at me on repeat.

Once you get mixed, these labels just fail...

 

You set up your ministry of standards for who gets to be what race and guess what - most of us will, over time, not fit.

Appropriation is just a call for segregation under a mask of pretending to be about social justice. It's a ploy to get liberals to act racist.

(and guess what, I've met my share of racists of all political bents - so it's not really a surprise... but the danger here is these people THINK they're fighting racism when in reality they're enacting it... That's... not new... after all Housing Projects and the Reservation System were BOTH done by groups of people thinking they were fighting against racism...)

 

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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5 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

You set up your ministry of standards for who gets to be what race and guess what - most of us will, over time, not fit.

agree

is a pretty deep topic this

culture as it applies to a people is about belonging. Belonging begins with whakapapa, literally genealogy. Who are your parents, who are theirs and so on

that a person may have parents from two different tribes doesn't make the person not of those tribes. It makes them a member of both

sometimes people get into blood quotients. When so then is typically used to invalidate people. Like you are not a full-blood english person and as such you are not really english

from belonging arises tangata whenua, literally people of the land.  Where were you born, where were your parents born, where were there parents born and so on

in the modern US state for example, anyone born in the territory of the USA is tangata whenua. Same in NZ. People born in NZ are literally tangata whenua in the modern NZ state . People of of the land, a person born on the land is of the land

where people sometimes struggle is when words and concepts said in a language in which they are not fluent can lead them to think the words/concepts don't mean what they do. And sometimes also people think that what is said only has meaning when describing / talking about a person or people to whom the language spoken is their primary

there is also a deeper thing going on when people hear others speaking in languages other than the language which is primary to them. Stranger danger, which frightens some people and they lash out

 

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