Land Owner Forced Teleport Home

[Gabriele Graves]

I was having a conversation with someone about the ability for land owners to force teleport an avatar home as part of their security system.
This is obviously different to an avatar interacting with an object that asks permission to teleport someone - that is a different thing, is not forced and was not part of that discussion.

It is a very polarizing feature (surprise, surprise).  Obviously those who TP people home from their land feel happy with the feature others, such as vehicle users, see it as a scourge and would rather be bounced by ban lines or ejected to an adjacent accessible parcel instead of being sent home.  The opinion has been floated before that whilst a land owner has the right to say that they don't want a person on their land, it doesn't necessarily follow that they should be able to choose where they go unless there is only a single choice available.

I tried to enumerate the use cases I knew of where ban and/or eject are not enough and force teleport home is necessary.

The main one I could come up with is an estate/private island owner who wants to teleport someone off their entire estate/island.  Eject would be pointless.  I presume that an estate ban would also teleport the person home and could be used instead but for estate/island owners who use implement an Experience, the ability to teleport someone home if they do not accept the Experience is important as they probably don't want to estate ban that person.

After that I kind of ran out of steam.  What, if any, are the other critical use cases?

Hypothetically, if the ability to teleport someone home required estate level permissions only (including from scripts) and everyone else had to make do with eject and/or ban what else would break?  Would the sky fall and fire rain down from the heavens?

I am a mainland land owner and I know it wouldn't affect me at all but I am interested to find out what I might have missed.
 

[Alwin Alcott]

it's always been a feature to push, and /or, eject and/or tp home in really many security devices for many years .. my orbs are at least 10 years old and have the 3 as possibility to choose from .
However it's for me also not needed to auto tp home for unwanted visitors, it's also not needed to regulate really everything concerning privacy enforcement.
 

[BelindaN]

I have an orb at home. It's not really for when I'm not there. Intruders don't matter when I'm not at home. 

But when I'm home and working outfits, I don't want intruders which is distracting. In two years I've maybe had a dozen. Some were attempting to grief. All got booted after ten seconds.

Thats why I use an orb. Just on my parcel.

[animats]

I hate hitting that in narrow waterways. Happened to me last night. I was trying to boat through the northern part of Sansara, which is a maze of little channels, and I'd get orbs telling me I had 5 seconds to get out. Out of where? They didn't put keep out buoys in the water. (Which exist in both RL and SL, and can be purchased on Marketplace.) No visible ban line. Some orbs are bluffing, sending those messages to boats outside of their parcel. (That's a TOS violation.) The parcel lines are underwater and hard to examine when you're under a tight time limit.

This a real-life keep out buoy. This particular buoy is upstream of the water intakes at Hoover Dam. So there's a good reason for keeping small boats far away. Most security orbs in SL do not have that good a reason.

 

[Lindal Kidd]

I agree that teleporting a trespasser home is often overkill.  But sometimes it's not, so the option should be there.  One way to look at it is to compare it to what happens on a damage-enabled region.  If you're killed, you get teleported home.  Since landowners have the right to turn on damage for their land, surely they have the right to teleport you home via an orb.

[Mollymews]

i put here my vote for Linden to include an option to show parcel boundaries on the minimap in the Linden viewer, as was developed originally by Catznip and is now in other TPVs

is the best thing ever for vehicle users to be able to see where the public right-of-ways end and private land begins

[Scylla Rhiadra]

27 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Since landowners have the right to turn on damage for their land, surely they have the right to teleport you home via an orb.

How does this follow, Lindal? Telling me I don't have the right to be somewhere is not the same as compelling me to be somewhere else. Or are you speaking just of damage-enabled parcels?

Forced TP home is a scourge for travellers. I'll sometimes be riding my bike or scooter on the mainland road system, and even a tiny deviation -- sometimes the result of getting messed up by a sim crossing -- results in me being sent home, maybe 5 kms from where I was, or perhaps on an entirely different continent. It makes journeying almost pointless, because it wipes out my progress.

It's just so unnecessary. I get the need for privacy. But TPing me home is intrusive and uncalled for. If someone used a gun that did that, we'd call it griefing. Keep me off your land by all means, but give me sufficient time to react, and send me somewhere at least within walking distance. The only instance I can think of for the TP home is the one Gabriele gives.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Scylla Rhiadra

[AlettaMondragon]

From a vehicle user's viewpoint, I can tell so much that teleporting home is much better than ejecting. It is technically better. If you're sitting in a vehicle, and you get ejected, you get unseated from the vehicle, and while usually it stops where it happened and gets returned to you, in some cases it can throw away the vehicle as well, or it keeps going in the direction it was, while you get thrown back the other way. After that, who knows where you land, sometimes on the top of a banlined parcel where flying is disabled, and you keep bouncing on the top of banlines until you teleport out or enable flight override. In some cases, landing on top of banlines caused weird glitches for me, similarly to failed region crossings. If you don't even remember where exactly this happened (and got thrown too far away), you won't even be able to get your vehicle (let's assume you wanted to, I do).

In contrast to this, when you get teleported home, you get a notification with the location's SLurl where you teleported from (if your viewer is set to do so), so you can go back if your vehicle didn't get autoreturned (or if you want to continue your trip from a nearby rez zone), you won't bounce on the top of banlines, won't occasionally land on other orbed parcels, etc. It is far safer to be teleported home than being thrown away in a random direction in an unknown sim, and if you were on a vehicle, the result of both is that your trip is disrupted, so then the safer and less uncomfortable option is the better.

I'd even go ahead and say, it's the eject function that I'd even remove from SL, or at least it could be improved to avoid making cannonballs of avatars.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

Didn't they have orbs that logged you out.  I remember that from back in 1952.....

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

18 minutes ago, AlettaMondragon said:

I'd even go ahead and say, it's the eject function that I'd even remove from SL, or at least it could be improved to avoid making cannonballs of avatars.

I can't say that what you describe has ever happened to me, but I'll take your word for it.

I wonder if it might not be feasible, technically, to send someone directly to the nearest rez zone?

[Solar Legion]

I've weighed in on this before (in many other/older threads) but I'll still toss my own view into the mix while laying out a bit of information:

• I currently have an "old" Linden Home and rent a 4096 on a Private Region
• I have rented on Mainland Regions in the past
• I rarely bother with vehicular journeys
• I have always used some form of Security
  • Parcel Access Controls on the Linden Homes parcel, several "orbs" on the 4096
    • I have found the PAC to be very limited
  • Security on the 4096 is broken into layers
    • 1 system set as Parcel Wide with a Whitelist and Group members always allowed
      • Switched Off the majority of the time
      • Teleport Home set as the action
      • 15 Second Timer
    • 2 systems with a finite range set, encompassing the structures they are set inside
      • Both structures are skyboxes
      • Both structures are treated as Private Homes
      • The interior of each structure (being skyboxes) is inaccessible to the general public under normal circumstances
        • Both are accessed by means of a Teleporter system on the Parcel with the appropriate permissions (neither destination will show to those outside the land group)
      • Both systems are set to Teleport Home
      • Both systems are set to 10 seconds
  • Mainland Rentals always used - where allowed - an "orb" with similar settings to the finite range systems above

If I ever directly owned a Mainland Parcel I would use a setup similar to the Private Region Security. No, I really do not care if you'd rather be simply batted off the Parcel as opposed to Teleported Home, not with the set up as described above (Parcel Wide has only been turned on a grand total of two times).

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

43 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

No, I really do not care if you'd rather be simply batted off the Parcel as opposed to Teleported Home, not with the set up as described above (Parcel Wide has only been turned on a grand total of two times).

The skyboxes are a separate and potentially complex issue, depending upon the radius of the orb and the degree to which it might unnecessarily hamper air traffic, but as a general rule I assume that they are private by default, so I won't comment on those.

Genuine question, though: even if the PAC for the land portion of the parcel is turned on very rarely, why would you choose to set to TP home? How is this advantageous to you?

[bigmoe Whitfield]

Mainland I set my orb to only scan 200m above the parcel,  no return home,   on the private sim I rent on,  10 seconds and then you get sent home.    I try to not impede on travelers over mainland.  

[Solar Legion]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The skyboxes are a separate and potentially complex issue, depending upon the radius of the orb and the degree to which it might unnecessarily hamper air traffic, but as a general rule I assume that they are private by default, so I won't comment on those.

Genuine question, though: even if the PAC for the land portion of the parcel is turned on very rarely, why would you choose to set to TP home? How is this advantageous to you?

PAC can't teleport you home - that's the About Land dialog's Access controls.

As for a Parcel Wide "orb" system being set to Teleport Home over a simple ejection? The only answer that matters is as follows: Personal choice.

If that isn't enough: I'm the one paying for the Parcel.

The above two are - at the end of the day - the only reasons that matter one whit. It ought to be noted that the Parcel Wide "orb" on my present PR rental has only ever been activated twice - both times due to a spate of griefing events wherein the traditional PAC system was only useful for keeping them from sitting on my Parcel and rezzing their crap out elsewhere.

In such a case the orb was active for a total of two to three days straight, minimum. Once the Region griefing stopped, all went back to normal.

In such a case, Teleporting them "home" adds an extra step to continue their crap.

Now why did I bother to expound after giving such terse initial answers? Simple: The exposition is meaningless at the end of the day, especially seeing as there are (quite a few of) those for whom no reason is ever "good enough".

[AlettaMondragon]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I can't say that what you describe has ever happened to me, but I'll take your word for it.

I wonder if it might not be feasible, technically, to send someone directly to the nearest rez zone?

It only happened to me like 3-4 times altogether, thanks to the fact that I don't dash through private lands unless it's entirely necessary. It has happened more that I got teleported home, and it might be just me, but it feels less uncomfortable, even if it's just as unfriendly as it can be.

Your question is interesting, it reminds me of a wiki article I once read about how teleporting and land access works (or at least has worked, because in reality now it sure does not work the way it was described there), but based on that, I wouldn't trust a makeshift algorithm trying to compute the nearest rez zone to teleport me to, in a split-second, once I'd suddenly trigger the function. Would it try to tp me to the nearest Linden-owned rez zone? Would it just select the first parcel with rez turned on? There are places where the nearest rez zone is several sims away (private lands included), but everything is full of abandoned land where you could be either teleported or otherwise moved. However, the absolute best for vehicle use would be a function to be able to move the vehicle with the operator sitting in it, like when it nonphysically moves by its own script, or when you reposition it in edit mode, that way let's say you enter the parcel where the security system spots you and  wants you out, it would trigger this function, which would reposition you along with your vehicle to about 30 meters back the way you were heading. Or more. The point is, then you can stop, rethink your life and make another decision. And the stopping is actually an important thing, because if you combine reaction time, lag, "shock", and other factors, the worst thing is to have a message popping up saying you have like 5 seconds to leave. By the time you can effectively react, while your vehicle still moves into the parcel, the time is up. If you can stop outside of the parcel, you're safe.

[Mollymews]

adding to the list of what I would like Linden to do

i would like LSLfunction llSetParcelDetails( [ parameters ]) where the parameters are the same as llGetParcelDetails() with the addition of PARCEL_DETAILS_ALLOW_ACCESS_ANYONE where this is a toggle for About Land \ Access \ Anyone can visit

so that I can script access/visibility to my parcel based on my presence

i always have a sub-parcel which I use as a dressing room. Typically when I am dressing/putting new outfits together then this sub-parcel is manually set on the About Land dialog: Access: Anyone can visit = FALSE. Options: Avatars on other parcels can see and chat with avatars on this parcel = FALSE

when I have finished dressing/putting outfit together then I have to manually change them back on the About Land dialog. Because I can't script this then I have to remember to do it. Something I often forget to do when I leave, teleport, logout

what I would like to be able to do is make a scripted collision door to my dressing room sub-parcel. Example if we had llSetParcelDetails():

 

integer raised;

default
{
   collision_start(integer num_detected)
   {
      if (llDetectedKey(0) == llGetOwner() && !raised)
      { // is me, so raise the privacy walls
         raised = TRUE;
         llSetParcelDetails([PARCEL_DETAILS_AllOW_ACCESS_ANYONE, FALSE, PARCEL_DETAILS_SEE_AVATARS, FALSE]);
         llSetTimerEvent(60.0); // check every 1 minute to see if I am still present
      }
   }

   timer()
   {
      if (llGetAgentSize(llGetOwner()) == ZERO_VECTOR)
      {
         // I am not here, so lower the privacy walls, and stop the timer check
         llSetTimerEvent(0.0);
         llSetParcelDetails([PARCEL_DETAILS_AllOW_ACCESS_ANYONE, TRUE, PARCEL_DETAILS_SEE_AVATARS, TRUE]);
         raised = FALSE;   
      }
   }
}

 

[Blush Diavolo]

5 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I tried to enumerate the use cases I knew of where ban and/or eject are not enough and force teleport home is necessary.

The main one I could come up with is an estate/private island owner who wants to teleport someone off their entire estate/island.  Eject would be pointless.  I presume that an estate ban would also teleport the person home and could be used instead but for estate/island owners who use implement an Experience, the ability to teleport someone home if they do not accept the Experience is important as they probably don't want to estate ban that person.

After that I kind of ran out of steam.  What, if any, are the other critical use cases?

A friend of a friend fell asleep and left her avatar online on my sim the other night, they asked if I could eject her so people wouldn't think she was stood ignoring people etc, instead I used the teleport home feature as then she wouldn't be sat on parcel lines for multiple hours and instead be in her home location.

 

edit: typos

Edited September 23, 2020 by Blush Diavolo

[Rowan Amore]

My orb is set to eject and ban on both mainland and private estate.  My plot on mainland has no roads and so much junk up in the air, I doubt anyone could fly over it if they wanted.  It just shoots you to the corner of the region and not home.

[Rabid Cheetah]

3 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

[C]ompare it to what happens on a damage-enabled region.  If you're killed, you get teleported home.  Since landowners have the right to turn on damage for their land, surely they have the right to teleport you home via an orb.

So you're saying parcel owners have the right to kill people if they dare stray onto their parcels by even a pixel for a fraction of a nanosecond.

[Rabid Cheetah]

2 hours ago, AlettaMondragon said:

[M]aking cannonballs of avatars.

I have a cannon that does just that lol  My favorite way to travel a sim-and-a-half away in a matter of seconds.  Sometimes the cannonball crashes you into the ground.  Which makes for great pictures [pressing the "GET BACK ON TOPIC" button] when there's no orb set up to tp you away before you can snap the camera.

[Rabid Cheetah]

2 hours ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Didn't they have orbs that logged you out.  I remember that from back in 1952.....

 

If there were orbs that automatically initiated "Format C:\" on anyone who dared enter the region, folks would be using them.

[Rabid Cheetah]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I wonder if it might not be feasible, technically, to send someone directly to the nearest rez zone?

That's the best suggestion I've heard for orbs in ages!  Gets rid of the evil filthy spawn of Satan piece of decaying pixels "trespasser" who farts in elevators AND keeps the innocent explorer who went a full nanometer over the parcel line close to where they last were but in a place they can instantly re-rez their evil contaminated nuclear waste-spewing ride-enabled pixel PEN15.  Now it's just up to the Saintly Order of Orb Creators to develop such heavenly devices, and sell them for three million Lindens a pop.

Sarcasm aside, it's a wonderful incredible idea.  I hope it can really be done.

Or how's this, oh Mighty Makers of Orbs?  Instead of auto-tp'ing a [LET X=magic boogeyman that boosts your sales] to a given spot, present these filthy lickers-of-toilets and people-who-chew-with-their-mouths-open with a menu informing them they are guilty of the heinous crime of pissing their pixels on a person's parcel [TOS, Section 54a, Line P, Electronic Simulation of Public Urination] and therefore will be teleported to:

a) Home

b) The parcel boundary

c) The nearest outhouse

P.S.  I will pay good money for an animated shoulder pet that remembers what parcel ejected you home, detaches itself from you, tp's itself to said parcel, and livestreams going tinkle on their lawn.

[Rabid Cheetah]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Genuine question, though: even if the PAC for the land portion of the parcel is turned on very rarely, why would you choose to set to TP home? How is this advantageous to you?

[Rabid Cheetah]

1 hour ago, Blush Diavolo said:

A friend of a friend fell asleep and left her avatar online on my sim the other night, they asked if I could eject her so people wouldn't think she was stood ignoring people etc, instead I used the teleport home feature as then she wouldn't be sat on parcel lines for multiple hours and instead be in her home location.

 

edit: typos

That's a great use of the function, especially since it was consensual.

See, THAT'S what's irking people.  Not a feeling of entitlement, that they can walk wherever they want.  More of a feeling that one's rights end when they interfere with others' rights.  And that's what these no-warning/tp-home orbs do.  Instead of acting as a barrier to keep people off land they don't own, a perfectly valid right of the parcel owner, they teleport someone against their consent. 

Sure, Linden's TOS allows this.  But that's not the point.  The point is people are always going to be resentful of their consent being violated, even for something as trivial as where their little pixel person is suddenly standing.  It creates a lot of ill-will, and therefore is not a wise choice for parcel owners to be making.  It doesn't matter if the ill-will is justified or not.  It exists, and it exists as a direct result of the choice to use such a setting on an orb.

So I'd recommend against it.  But yeah, at the end of the day, it's your place, do what you want, blah blah blah.  It's just a choice that lacks consideration for the fact that you're on the Mainland, not your own private estate [Note:  Despite discussions about use of orbs on private sims, this thread is located in the "Forums > Land > Mainland" section], and have to deal with interacting with other people to some degree, even if it's just being civil to passers-by.  If you really want that much authority over the region, you really should buy a private estate, that's what they're designed for.

But again, this is more etiquette than TOS rules.

[animats]

2 hours ago, AlettaMondragon said:

However, the absolute best for vehicle use would be a function to be able to move the vehicle with the operator sitting in it

We brought that up at Server User Group today.

Actually, all hitting a ban line does is turn off physics. A script can back the vehicle out and turn physics back on. My bikes and a boat do that. Bumping into a ban line with a ground or water vehicle equipped this way is not a big issue.

Unless the parcel also excludes the avatar, and the avatar enters before the center of the root prim does. Then the avatar is violently ejected from the vehicle. That sucks.

What came out of the meeting is that while the correct answer is to check vehicle and avatars at the same time, that's apparently hard for LL. It requires a complex check on every parcel border. Desired behavior is like what happens when you walk into a ban line - you bounce off.

Meanwhile, please set your parcel options in a consistent way. If only avatars in your group can enter, also set permissions so that only objects in your group can enter. At least if you're alongside a road or waterway.