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Why is Second Life expensive?


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10 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Why don't you try it and tell us?

Because I KNOW how games are programmed (worked some game studios) and I know how mesh body is created/imported/scripted in SL! And I already told my opinion.  But even this topic proves all discussions are useless - you will never prove some robber he is wrong and he has to stop robbing people  - he will always have arguments.

Thats REALLY my last comment about this subject. Discussion is useless as I said.

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I've been in Second Life for 17 years.  SL is actually 3 months older than I am.  I finally realized that this platform is very expensive.  When I realized that it was because of a platform/game calle

Simple..SL is a luxury item.  Not a necessity.   Pay, don't pay, log in, don't log in.  YOU may not do anything in here but lots of other people do.   And it took you this long to realize that it can

Of course it is expensive - average outfit is 300-800 l (about 1-3 usd) - for that price you can buy phone game. Mesh body is 2700 - more than 10 usd - for the price you can buy some indie game or dlc

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1 hour ago, Hotbabe2004 said:

Because I KNOW how games are programmed (worked some game studios) and I know how mesh body is created/imported/scripted in SL! And I already told my opinion.  But even this topic proves all discussions are useless - you will never prove some robber he is wrong and he has to stop robbing people  - he will always have arguments.

Thats REALLY my last comment about this subject. Discussion is useless as I said.

You must be new to the concept of basic economics. 

You remind me a little of the people, who complain that products from self-employed artists are more expansive than wholesale products. A single person creating mesh bodyparts for Second Life operates under different messurements, than a gameing company publishing a DLC for a triple A game. 

And then there is the free market. If too few people were willing to purchase a mesh body at 5000 (mind you, some are cheaper), it wouldn't be profitable for the creator. Apparently, many people do think a mesh body is worth the price of a DLC. And those people do not get robbed. There is nobody holding them at gun point, demanding their L$. This is entertainment money willingly spend.

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No, you do not know how games are developed and no you never worked for any game studio. If you had you'd already have dropped the BS concerning Mobile "Games" and trying to use Sale prices as part of your "argument".

Indie Devs charge so little thanks to reduced costs as compared to bigger studios. Older games end up with reduced prices thanks to interest drifts. The vast majority of Online AAA titles are paired with a subscription cost somewhere.

The list of things you are absolutely wrong about is simply endless.

As was said only a few posts back, modified a bit: Go out and build something identical to Second Life, using whatever modern features you wish. At the end of the day however it must be identical in base functionality and server usage. You cannot cut corners. No, you cannot use an OpenSim "clone" and call it a day.

Oh but wait, you've already had at least one Second Life user come forward to tell you point blank how expensive it is to run even a somewhat similar system is.

Nah, you're just stuck in this fantasy world concerning initial costs and trying to pretend that simple little "game" you bought in a mobile App Store (which if you're lucky took a few years to develop and still isn't as polished as even a Console game) or the game you got on sale are a "good" benchmark for cost ....

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3 hours ago, Hotbabe2004 said:

Totally wrong! There are modifiable games with mega-tonnes of mods - including bodies, apparel, animations - everything! And everything is free, not like in SL.

 

But enough of this - all debates are useless. LL is not going to change it's business model, so no sense to talk about it. Now they even allowed creators ban users from they shops, so from now as Romans would said: either good reviews or nothing. Again, no sense to complain cause nobody gives it a... you know what I mean. May be that's why sl population is declining - once full sims stay empty. But that is totally different topic. 

Oh and btw, A lot of people.wouldn't think to call SL a "game" in the same sense as those phone apps.  Just sayin'.

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On 9/22/2020 at 6:15 AM, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

As an alternative to the arguments put forward against the OP's complaint that SL is expensive, why not take a long hard look at the near-equivalent alternatives which are cheap? What happened to InWorldz? Great Canadian Grid? The multiple instances of Mr Pomposelli (sic) and quite a few others? They were far cheaper than SL for residents, but all that happened was they couldn't afford to survive the vicissitudes of fortune.

That's what you get for not getting your revenue model tuned to both operating costs and demand, uncertain futures.

InWorldz did not fold due to lack of income. It folded due to mismanagement of funds. The same thing happened with Islandz. Same owner, same financial mismanagement. I call it mismanagement but it really was fraud. I witnessed the whole thing and had been in InWorldz since it first launched. I knew better than to move to Islandz when the money raised was supposed to go to keeping InWorldz open but was used for the very short lived Islandz instead.

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1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

InWorldz did not fold due to lack of income. It folded due to mismanagement of funds. The same thing happened with Islandz. Same owner, same financial mismanagement. I call it mismanagement but it really was fraud. I witnessed the whole thing and had been in InWorldz since it first launched. I knew better than to move to Islandz when the money raised was supposed to go to keeping InWorldz open but was used for the very short lived Islandz instead.

I would REALLY like the quote the quote your were referencing too 

 

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

As an alternative to the arguments put forward against the OP's complaint that SL is expensive, why not take a long hard look at the near-equivalent alternatives which are cheap? What happened to InWorldz? Great Canadian Grid? The multiple instances of Mr Pomposelli (sic) and quite a few others? They were far cheaper than SL for residents, but all that happened was they couldn't afford to survive the vicissitudes of fortune.

That's what you get for not getting your revenue model tuned to both operating costs and demand, uncertain futures.

I was also at The Great Canadian Grid from the time when there were like 24 plots or whatever and stayed for a year or so after it GREW exponentially .  And I was also at one of the other grids mentioned.   Both of these were mismanaged but in different ways.  It takes a LOT to run a platform and most of the grid owners (Opensim based in all these cases) are either in it for the money or the ego.

 

In answer to the idea that you cannot successfully run a grid at super low prices --- I give you KITELY which has been doing well for years and has single full prim regions for $15 and quads are $20 a month and 16 region groups for $40 a month.  Of all the grids I have been on Kitely is the best managed.   

 

This is NOT a ad for Kitely or to try and get folks over to Opensim. Comparing Opensim and Second Life is very much an apples and oranges thing. But it is a fair argument I think against the "can't afford" argument. IF there were more good creators in Opensim and IF creators could feel good about their rights (the main reason there aren't more over there) then we could see which would win out.  :D.

 

Kitely is an on-demand world and SL could (evidently now) have that option and lower prices. Whether they choose to do that is up to them. 

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My first 3 years in sl I didn't pay anything.  I enjoyed myself immensely and it didn't cost me a dime.  I bought land 3 years in.  Not a lot of land, just a 1026 parcel.  I had 2 premium memberships to pay the tier for that land and  between the stipends and the free land I broke even.  I outfitted myself in freebies and I was happy with the way I looked.  Then I got hired as a host for my favorite DJ and got paid to do what I was doing anyway.   I had enough money to pay my premium costs and buy whatever I felt like. Then the Lindens doubled the land allotment I could have as a premium member and I had even more money to play with. I've had 11 years of wonderful entertainment and friendships and I don't have any regrets at all. Sure, it wasn't free, TANSTAFFL, it was well worth it.

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On 9/22/2020 at 10:32 AM, Hotbabe2004 said:

Of course it is expensive - average outfit is 300-800 l (about 1-3 usd) - for that price you can buy phone game. Mesh body is 2700 - more than 10 usd - for the price you can buy some indie game or dlc to big game. Head is 5000 - 20 usd for which price you can buy AAA game (on discount) or big DLC or bunch of phone games. Is really creating some mesh (with all scripts, alphas and stuff) come in comparision with creating full game or big DLC? Prices are simply outrageous. Either you find a way to solve this or you go. It is that simple.

Now go compare those same prices not to a 2D phone game, but the 'cash shops' of games like World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars 2, and Finaly Fantasy XIV.

- You will find that SL is now, often cheaper for most things (clothes, animations, housing decor, avatar props), weirdly more for others (name change).

 

You're essentially saying photoshop costs too much because look at the price of my kid's coloring books... but those things are not equivalent.

 

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40 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I would REALLY like the quote the quote your were referencing too 

What quote? I didn't say anything about any quote.

I watched the whole thing while it was happening. I read the posts made by many, including Beth, on the now defunct platform (I forget the name of the software she was using for text communication before she shut it all down to just the Discord which I don't do) and forums. I could see where things were headed as did others. All anyone had to do was follow the money.

It was an accumulation of events and things said, not just a single quote from a single person.

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I think this quote from Jim Tarber says what happened though not so much the backstory:

Quote

 

Jim Tarber  Megan Fench • 2 years ago • edited

InWorldz revenues were completely blocked by a third-party company. Probably worth a lawsuit but regardless it was not possible to continue with that LLC. Therefore it could not be simply restored. That would have been so much easier, no opt-ins needed, etc. And with Rackspace shutting down the servers so quickly, it wasn't possible to communicate from IW, there was no more email, no more database with your email address, etc. There was only a hastily-grabbed backup and a Discord server set up for communications, and then notifying as many people as possible by Twitter, blog posts, etc.

Then the choice was to use the donations to restore it as a new grid, at great risk, or just return everything and give up. Residents convinced Elenia to risk her own situation by reviving as much data as possible on new servers (new LLC and grid). The money was spent on server hosting and other costs of the business, and the whole thing just ran out of capacity to continue around Christmas time.

HypergridBusiness

 

The conversations I remember was that the servers were not paid for on time and that Paypal locked the account on their end as a result. The mismanagement was in waiting to the very last moment to make the payment and the internet being out when that moment came. Then when Inworldz management tried to create a new business entity to transfer the grid to, many of the Inworldz creators were not willing to allow the creations they had sold to residents to be transferred to the new grid. That took a lot of the ambition out of trying to resurrect the grid with the work involved in filtering out whatever had not been whitelisted and allowed to be transferred. It would have resulted in many regions being white blobs.

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1 hour ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Now go compare those same prices not to a 2D phone game

And to add to your comment: Most mobile games appear cheap or free, simply because they use a different monetization model. Many are (to varying degress) "pay to win". They live from open end spending and you can easily drop more money than a single month of subscription for an MMO or premium membership in SL.

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1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

What quote? I didn't say anything about any quote.

I watched the whole thing while it was happening. I read the posts made by many, including Beth, on the now defunct platform (I forget the name of the software she was using for text communication before she shut it all down to just the Discord which I don't do) and forums. I could see where things were headed as did others. All anyone had to do was follow the money.

It was an accumulation of events and things said, not just a single quote from a single person.

I included the QUOTE that YOU QUOTED in these forums (the same post as the quote from you)  in my post so folks that hadn't been READING CAREFULLY would see the "flow".  

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1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

I included the QUOTE that YOU QUOTED in these forums (the same post as the quote from you)  in my post so folks that hadn't been READING CAREFULLY would see the "flow".  

Only one problem. One of those quotes isn't mine. Look again. The second quote you posted is not my post. LL/Invision still haven't fixed that little bug.

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I was cheated out of about $50 CAD by a charlatan selling empty boxes in a fake store my first few days here. I think I put in about another $20 Cad to get some clothes. That was the last time I put RL money into SL, and I refuse to again!!!

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1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Only one problem. One of those quotes isn't mine. Look again. The second quote you posted is not my post. LL/Invision still haven't fixed that little bug.

I UNDERSTAND that one quote isn't yours.  It is the quote from that SAME POST.  If you still don't get it I am not going to reply again. Good luck. 

 

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40 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

I UNDERSTAND that one quote isn't yours.  It is the quote from that SAME POST.  If you still don't get it I am not going to reply again. Good luck. 

 

In order to avoid more confusion on my part, did I or did I not clarify that it wasn't just what one person said that caused me to reach the conclusions I have but based on weeks of watching (and even posting a little) what was happening while it was happening?

If I didn't then I'm sorry but I don't understand what this means:

6 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I would REALLY like the quote the quote your were referencing too 

I'm assuming the rest of your post was aimed at the other poster and not me so I'm not addressing any of that.

Help me out just a wee bit more, please? I'd appreciate it just so I'm not confused any more.

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20 hours ago, Hotbabe2004 said:

Who said a word about 2D games? You can buy 3D games for phones. And latest Assassin Creed is USD 10 - less than maitreya body! Whole damned AAA game is less than some damned mesh. Fair, of course!

 

It may be irrelevant for you, but  did not have you in mind when I posted my comment. Fact is prices in SL are outrageous compared either offline or online games. And again - I am speaking about 3D games, so please stop this 2D bull*****!

You're speaking about games, yes.

SL is not a game.

So you're in the wrong place.

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On 9/21/2020 at 9:05 PM, Lord Derryth said:

I've been in Second Life for 17 years.  SL is actually 3 months older than I am.  I finally realized that this platform is very expensive.  When I realized that it was because of a platform/game called Dual Universe.  DU is a metaverse like SL.  In DU, you pay $6 a month and must purchase at least 3 months in order to have active service.  If you ask me.  It's a steal.  Why?  (BTW not advertising for DU pointing out the obvious with SL).  In SL, you get a small piece of land for like what.....$10 a month?  If you want a sim you must pay $300 a month.  In DU, you get 10 times the size of a SL sim and you can build massive cities.  That's only $6 a month.  You get a freaking tile that is 10 times the size of SL sims and unlimited....I don't know what to call it let just say prims?  Is it because people make money off of SL?  Why not take a bigger cut?  I don't see why SL can't be affordable for everyone as DU is.  You can get more people to enjoy SL without breaking the bank.  If World of Warcraft charges $14.99 a month and they have more servers than SL can count.  Why the $300 a month?  This is why I've been discouraged from SL because I can't honestly afford a sim to build on.  Not everyone wants to shop and spend and be homeless in the streets.  

It's starting to dawn on me that SL is by far the most expensive platform out there.  I don't count those stupid sex virtual worlds that charge over $20 a month.  Think about it.  Novaquark has changed the game.  If you see one of their old videos they explain how they control lag with massive people in one area.  I know some of you will get all technical with the "Oh SL has mesh and blah blah".  What is being changed in SL that is so game breaking that $300 is worth having a sim?  Remember!  If you don't make money in SL, you are really not doing anything.  If SL ever goes bye bye.  All that money you spent on items INGAME will go bye bye.  The future for us doesn't look too bright.

Ohhh Lord...

I joined SL when i was barely allowed to do so 13 years ago. And as i had not much money left over in RL at all, i spent the most of the SL time hanging with friends at sandboxes, building things myself with simple prims, or going to clubs (even winning some sploder money).

Times did change since then. While  you obviously grind in DU, i grind 38 hours a week in RL (you may call it an office job).
That allowes me to spend XX USD every month on premium aka linden Home, a parcel at Zindra and an island at blake sea.
Whats wrong about that? I do it because i can and because i want it.
Maybe your cellphone is much better/newer than my 2 year old Huawei, what was for only 200 bucks back that day.
You want me telling you, no one needs 6 GBs of RAM, just because i still have 3 GB of RAM? Really? :)

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9 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm assuming the rest of your post was aimed at the other poster and not me

I'm not totally sure what is going on here but I think Chic's point is that I introduced Inworldz and others into the topic and so it was important for people to see how the topic had swerved slightly. I read your other posts and those of people who were in at the end of Inworldz, my point is still the same: in order to have an organisation capable of planning, securing revenues, taking legal action against attempts by other parties to block funds, sufficient revenue is needed. It's called contingency planning. LL charge what they do because., as a company, they must do so.

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5 hours ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

I'm not totally sure what is going on here but I think Chic's point is that I introduced Inworldz and others into the topic and so it was important for people to see how the topic had swerved slightly. I read your other posts and those of people who were in at the end of Inworldz, my point is still the same: in order to have an organisation capable of planning, securing revenues, taking legal action against attempts by other parties to block funds, sufficient revenue is needed. It's called contingency planning. LL charge what they do because., as a company, they must do so.

You had no way of knowing this, but, you're preaching to the choir here. I understood you. It's Chic's, erm, "unique typos" that I'm not quite getting. There is an incomplete thought there and it could be completed in different ways that give different meanings. I have no way of knowing for sure which completed thought is the correct one unless she tells me. Then seeing my name on someone else's post after a rather "large" update to the forum kind of threw another wrench into the works because one would think that bug would have been fixed in that update (if not the previous one).

That's all there is to it.

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13 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Then seeing my name on someone else's post after a rather "large" update to the forum kind of threw another wrench into the works

Ah, Ok,. I hadn't seen anything about that and was a bit puzzled when I first read the replies, it makes things clearer now.

So, the reason LL is so expensive (Bill 'n Ted NOT) is that they need to cover the salaries of web page coders monkeying around with the forums, innit?

Edited by Profaitchikenz Haiku
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