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Doc Carling
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8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, to be honest, I sometimes feel uncomfortable when women choose to highlight only their sexuality. Not because they are not sexual, or should not depict themselves as sexual beings, but because they are selling themselves short, and possibly contributing to a still-prevalent view that women are of value primarily as sexual objects. A woman's sexuality is a vital component, in most cases, of who she is: absolutely one should be able to express that. But it's only a facet, one part, of her identity. Focusing solely on that, to the exclusion of everything else, is doing herself, and women as a gender, a disservice.

But there's a more important principle here. A woman who chooses to represent herself sexually is doing just that: she's representing herself. SHE is the one who is making the determination about how she wants to be seen, SHE is the one defining herself.

I am struggling with this viewpoint considering how you would go out of your way to defend someone who's whole forum persona is wrapped up in how she is a loud and proud sex worker and it is pretty much all she posts about.

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11 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

I am struggling with this viewpoint considering how you would go out of your way to defend someone who's whole forum persona is wrapped up in how she is a loud and proud sex worker and it is pretty much all she posts about.

Oh, I have lots of issues with how the person of whom you speak represents herself. I wish she had chosen a very different display name. I wish she didn't present herself as a sort of willing sex doll. And a lot of other things.

But, as I say in the part that you quote, those are her choices. They are expressions of her kink, and of the identity that she's built for herself here and in-world. That I personally dislike or disagree with those choices doesn't mean that I'm not going to defend her right to make them. The fact that she's also a friend is an aside: like anyone else here, she deserves the opportunity to establish for herself who she is here.

The issue of the identity of a "sex worker" is a different and somewhat more complicated one. I think the person to whom we are referring is essentially RPing a sex worker, but she is also making money from it: in that sense, she's offering a service for pay -- in the same way that someone who scripts for L$s is. Sex workers may or may not enjoy their work (which shouldn't they? I enjoy mine), but the key thing is that they are workers, exchanging labour for payment.

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8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh, I have lots of issues with how the person of whom you speak represents herself. I wish she had chosen a very different display name. I wish she didn't present herself as a sort of willing sex doll. And a lot of other things.

But, as I say in the part that you quote, those are her choices. They are expressions of her kink, and of the identity that she's built for herself here and in-world. That I personally dislike or disagree with those choices doesn't mean that I'm not going to defend her right to make them. The fact that she's also a friend is an aside: like anyone else here, she deserves the opportunity to establish for herself who she is here.

The issue of the identity of a "sex worker" is a different and somewhat more complicated one. I think the person to whom we are referring is essentially RPing a sex worker, but she is also making money from it: in that sense, she's offering a service for pay -- in the same way that someone who scripts for L$s is. Sex workers may or may not enjoy their work (which shouldn't they? I enjoy mine), but the key thing is that they are workers, exchanging labour for payment.

I get what you are saying, but in that same regard, women who highlight themselves sexually are ALSO expressing their kink and that is THEIR choice.  They are often RPing that side of themselves as well, therefore their right to do that shouldn't be looked down on anymore than the person who is expressing their kink and RPing as a sex worker.  Getting paid for it makes it worse in my opinion - but that is just that....MY opinion.  

That being said, I am not defending the pictures or avatars created by OP.  But maybe this is HIS kink, creepy and distasteful as that may be to some.

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22 hours ago, Doc Carling said:

I rather want to hear what viewers really think. 😊

 

My father developed a fondness for cheesecake art during his tour of duty as a fighter pilot in WWII, where pin-up girls adorned the noses of warplanes. I grew up in the presence of pin-up girls on calendars in my Father's shop. To my mind, pin up art is suggestive, not explicit. It's demure, not raw. It's cheeky, elusive, tantalizing, flirtatious, and... innocent. There are no spread legs and crotch shots, and no perversion of my understanding of my myself as a "daddy's girl" who is proud to have grown to fill his shoes.

Here's a poster I made for SL a dozen years ago, containing ten of the girls from my father's calendars.

482656780_TheDigitSisters.thumb.jpg.9522f1ff9a308c00791163d8794e1fdd.jpg

That montage is a playful representation of my ten fingers.

First names denote the finger:

  • Tessa = Thumb
  • Ida = Index
  • Mona = Middle (and the longest for most people ;-).
  • Rena = Ring
  • Pinquella = Pinky

Middle names denote the hand:

  • Lynne = Left
  • Raye = Right

So, Ida Raye Digit would be the index finger of my right hand.

I found the sisters handy for playful emoting ;-).

Had I not grown up around Vargas Girls, I might have created my Digit Sisters from the work of Zoé Mozert or Olivia De Berardinis, I don't know. I think I am not as concerned about the gender of the artist who creates the art as I am about what the art says to me. Your thread title and images (I cannot call them art) say I should raise at least one Mona.

;-).

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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1 minute ago, Jordan Whitt said:

I get what you are saying, but in that same regard, women who highlight themselves sexually are ALSO expressing their kink and that is THEIR choice.  They are often RPing that side of themselves as well, therefore their right to do that shouldn't be looked down on anymore than the person who is expressing their kink and RPing as a sex worker.

Absolutely, I agree. I don't "look down" on them; I disagree with their choices. The fact that I sometimes wish they wouldn't so choose doesn't mean I don't believe that they have a right to do so.

4 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

Getting paid for it makes it worse in my opinion - but that is just that....MY opinion.

On this we'll have to disagree.

There is something particularly distasteful, in my view, about a culture that has created a "need" for a service, and then chooses to despise those who, willingly or unwillingly, they employ to satisfy it.

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3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

On this we'll have to disagree.

There is something particularly distasteful, in my view, about a culture that has created a "need" for a service, and then chooses to despise those who, willingly or unwillingly, they employ to satisfy it.

👍 I can agree to disagree.

Speaking for myself, my distaste doesn't come from the need for the service or the people providing the service, it is more the need to constantly promote themselves and that service.  

That, and the fact said person promoted joining that service to an 18 yr old on her second week in SL.  Having a kink is wonderful - we all have them - but sometimes it's better to keep your kinks to yourself, especially when they aren't being asked for.

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All the talk about prostitution aside, my main problem was the title of this thread and a couple others the OPer has on the forum.  The words he uses to describe...suburban housewife (is this the 1950s?), daddy's girl (showing grown women who I assume aren't his daughters) and princesses (as in daddy's little princess?)  As Scylla said earlier, it's demeaning and infantilizes women.  And the fact that these aren't women he's photographed.  These are women he himself created.  It's just beyond disturbing to me.

Personally, I think prostitution should be legalized.  If a woman chooses that as a profession, that's fine.  It's when it's forced or coerced through drugs and such that it's the problem and usually when men get involved in it.  As in these pictures, it's like pimping out the 'girls' he's made.

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12 hours ago, RowanMinx said:

All the talk about prostitution aside, my main problem was the title of this thread and a couple others the OPer has on the forum.  The words he uses to describe...suburban housewife (is this the 1950s?), daddy's girl (showing grown women who I assume aren't his daughters) and princesses (as in daddy's little princess?)  As Scylla said earlier, it's demeaning and infantilizes women.  And the fact that these aren't women he's photographed.  These are women he himself created.  It's just beyond disturbing to me.

Personally, I think prostitution should be legalized.  If a woman chooses that as a profession, that's fine.  It's when it's forced or coerced through drugs and such that it's the problem and usually when men get involved in it.  As in these pictures, it's like pimping out the 'girls' he's made.

Isn't the whole daddy thing a kink though?

And is there really an issue with him dolling up a female av? I've got a male alt myself (work in progress one).

Sure, creating female avs and using them to demean women would bother me. But the pics in this thread aren't exactly demeaning IMO. I can't speak for other threads since I haven't seen them.

But if he were pimping out girls he's made, is that really that off putting? That's just as legit as there being an sl sex industry. Pimps and sex workers work together.

Edited by AdminGirl
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11 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh, I have lots of issues with how the person of whom you speak represents herself. I wish she had chosen a very different display name. I wish she didn't present herself as a sort of willing sex doll. And a lot of other things.

But, as I say in the part that you quote, those are her choices. They are expressions of her kink, and of the identity that she's built for herself here and in-world. That I personally dislike or disagree with those choices doesn't mean that I'm not going to defend her right to make them. The fact that she's also a friend is an aside: like anyone else here, she deserves the opportunity to establish for herself who she is here.

The issue of the identity of a "sex worker" is a different and somewhat more complicated one. I think the person to whom we are referring is essentially RPing a sex worker, but she is also making money from it: in that sense, she's offering a service for pay -- in the same way that someone who scripts for L$s is. Sex workers may or may not enjoy their work (which shouldn't they? I enjoy mine), but the key thing is that they are workers, exchanging labour for payment.

 

11 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Absolutely, I agree. I don't "look down" on them; I disagree with their choices. The fact that I sometimes wish they wouldn't so choose doesn't mean I don't believe that they have a right to do so.

On this we'll have to disagree.

There is something particularly distasteful, in my view, about a culture that has created a "need" for a service, and then chooses to despise those who, willingly or unwillingly, they employ to satisfy it.

At times I feel women want the best of both worlds. They want to endorse the sex industry but they're not ok with women being objectified. Being ok with the sex industry is in part being ok with objectifying women. That's how that industry makes its money. I get the reasoning for wanting to equalize sex labour with every other type of labour - because we're all human and we don't want to treat one type different to another. But no, not all jobs are the same or equal. It's probably unpopular to say out loud but it's fact. The workers themselves are equal, but not the jobs. And there are certain industries that promote or at least perpetuate certain social standpoints that women have fought hard against.

No I don't think the people who work in the industry (or any for that matter) should be despised. But I will acknowledge that they are not innocent parties when it comes to objectifying women. They contribute to it, at least indirectly.

And this is where I also feel feminists sometimes try to push beyond equality, to the point of man-hating. Like it's ok for women to express their kink, but god forbid when a man does it. When a man does it, it's creepy, but when a woman does it, it's empowering. That, to me is not equality.

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5 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

I am struggling with this viewpoint considering how you would go out of your way to defend someone who's whole forum persona is wrapped up in how she is a loud and proud sex worker and it is pretty much all she posts about.

Sexworker? Each of your replies are off topic and just attacks vs my person. Your first two quoted statements which I never made and this one ignores the reality completeley. Like I were one who runs a dirty business. Just for your information. That is the real world world beyond your obvious low horizon.   erotic comics 

Edited by Doc Carling
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4 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

My father developed a fondness for cheesecake art during his tour of duty as a fighter pilot in WWII, where pin-up girls adorned the noses of warplanes. I grew up in the presence of pin-up girls on calendars in my Father's shop. To my mind, pin up art is suggestive, not explicit. It's demure, not raw. It's cheeky, elusive, tantalizing, flirtatious, and... innocent. There are no spread legs and crotch shots, and no perversion of my understanding of my myself as a "daddy's girl" who is proud to have grown to fill his shoes.

Here's a poster I made for SL a dozen years ago, containing ten of the girls from my father's calendars.

482656780_TheDigitSisters.thumb.jpg.9522f1ff9a308c00791163d8794e1fdd.jpg

That montage is a playful representation of my ten fingers.

First names denote the finger:

  • Tessa = Thumb
  • Ida = Index
  • Mona = Middle (and the longest for most people ;-).
  • Rena = Ring
  • Pinquella = Pinky

Middle names denote the hand:

  • Lynne = Left
  • Raye = Right

So, Ida Raye Digit would be the index finger of my right hand.

I found the sisters handy for playful emoting ;-).

Had I not grown up around Vargas Girls, I might have created my Digit Sisters from the work of Zoé Mozert or Olivia De Barardinis, I don't know. I think I am not as concerned about the gender of the artist who creates the art as I am about what the art says to me. Your thread title and images (I cannot call them art) say I should raise at least one Mona.

;-).

I would call that a sub-genre of erotic pin ups. Vintage art.

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2 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

Sexworker? Each of your replies are off topic just and just attacks vs my person. Your first two quoted statements which I never made and this one ignores the reality completeley. Like I were one who runs a dirty business Just for your information. That is the real world world beyond your obviously low horizon.   erotic comics 

I was replying to comments made by @Scylla Rhiadra, which should be obvious as I QUOTED comments made by HER and then my reply TO HER.

4 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

That being said, I am not defending the pictures or avatars created by OP.  But maybe this is HIS kink, creepy and distasteful as that may be to some.

The quoted comment above ^^^ is the ONLY time in this thread I have made ANY reference to or about you and your pictures.

I shall extend my "low horizon" when you learn how to read a thread and stop attacking me for conversations I have that do not have anything to do with you.

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58 minutes ago, AdminGirl said:

 

At times I feel women want the best of both worlds. That want to endorse the sex industry but they're not ok with women being objectified. Being ok with the sex industry is in part being ok with objectifying women. That's how that industry makes its money. I get the reasoning for wanting to equalize sex labour with every other type of labour - because we're all human and we don't want to treat one type different to another. But no, not all jobs are the same or equal. It's probably unpopular to say out loud but it's fact. The workers themselves are equal, but not the jobs. And there are certain industries that promote or at least perpetuate certain social standpoints that women have fought hard against.

I've always thought that the idea behind talking about prostitution as a job like any other was to remove the moral judgement of prostitutes as "fallen women" and such like, which is obviously a good thing (the removal of the stigma, I mean). But I do think it has gone too far in the opposite direction - forget morality, it's a very dangerous job for a women. Also, pushing it a "just another job" means ignoring the bigger scope of why sometimes (often? always? I'm no expert), women become prostitutes: lack of other opportunities, poverty, sexual harassment ("might as well get paid for it"), stuff like that - those are bigger society issues that get swept under the carpet in the "prostitution is a job like any other job" framework. I agree prostitution should be legal, but I also think it's worth working on building a society where these issues - the reasons why some women turn to prostitution to make ends meet, or some of the reasons at least - are addressed. Women make up the workforce in far too many of the lowest paid jobs. (I'm aware it's more complicated than that, but I mention this because prostitution brings up far bigger issues than simple personal choice, as far as I can tell.)

 

 

Yes, of course we're going off topic 😄 That never happens in these forums...🤣

 

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1 minute ago, Jordan Whitt said:

I was replying to comments made by @Scylla Rhiadra, which should be obvious as I QUOTED comments made by HER and then my reply TO HER.

The quoted comment above ^^^ is the ONLY time in this thread I have made ANY reference to or about you and your pictures.

I shall extend my "low horizon" when you learn how to read a thread and stop attacking me for conversations I have that do not have anything to do with you.

As short memory you have also? Re-read your recent 2 replies to me and what they are referring to. A quote is not only what's put into brackets. 😊 Look, facts like my link you totally ignore. You rather continue to attack. Well, good luck with that.

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11 hours ago, Doc Carling said:

Without irony, Scylla would that not end in a life of uniform acting ants?

No, it would end in a scintillating tapestry of individuals.

9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Our availability as sex objects is, however, no longer the only arrow in our quiver. It's really high time that our culture recognized that.

I very much agree with that… though sometimes, it feels like things haven't changed enough yet, and so it's a vicious circle. A narrow representation of sex based on female objectification is sold as "power" (and it does affords women a degree of "power") and so it perpetuates the idea in (some) women that it's all they need, so it gets reinforced.

 

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2 minutes ago, Arquet said:

I've always thought that the idea behind talking about prostitution as a job like any other was to remove the moral judgement of prostitutes as "fallen women" and such like, which is obviously a good thing (the removal of the stigma, I mean).

 

Yes I'm in total agreement with this. I don't think it's right to look down on or judge anyone based on their job. This is in terms of how we treat the people. But my thoughts are slightly different when it comes to talking about the job or industry itself. I don't necessarily judge the people involved, but the nature of the industry and the ramifications it entails.

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1 hour ago, AdminGirl said:

 

Like it's ok for women to express their kink, but god forbid when a man does it. When a man does it, it's creepy, but when a woman does it, it's empowering. That, to me is not equality.

I actually think that it makes more sense for a man to create … let's call it pin up stuff. It's traditional red blooded male territory. It's fine, as far as I'm concerned. Not my cup of tea, but then it isn't supposed to be. It's a bit jarring in SL, because SL affords us so many other ways of representation, and most people in SL take full advantage of that, but hey, it adds to the diversity. The whole daddys girl angle, though - ugh, icky, and not so innocent in a way that has been excellently deconstructed in this thread.

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4 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

As short memory you have also? Re-read your recent 2 replies to me and what they are referring to. A quote is not only what's put into brackets. 😊 Look, facts like my link you totally ignore. You rather continue to attack. Well, good luck with that.

Doc I think you're mistaken. Jordan never replied to you in this thread 😶

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4 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

They are often RPing that side of themselves as well, therefore their right to do that shouldn't be looked down on anymore than the person who is expressing their kink and RPing as a sex worker.  Getting paid for it makes it worse in my opinion - but that is just that....MY opinion.  

I have to apoligize to Jordan. I re-read the above and must admit I translated it wrong and took it as a personal attack. So, I'm very sorry. Next time I read more carefully.

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3 minutes ago, AdminGirl said:

Yes I'm in total agreement with this. I don't think it's right to look down on or judge anyone based on their job. This is in terms of how we treat the people. But my thoughts are slightly different when it comes to talking about the job or industry itself. I don't necessarily judge the people involved, but the nature of the industry and the ramifications it entails.

Fair enough. I do think it's a complicated issue, and has a much bigger scope than this thread (even allowing for all the off-topic places this thread is going to), so I'm just going to leave it at that... 😀

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10 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

As short memory you have also? Re-read your recent 2 replies to me and what they are referring to. A quote is not only what's put into brackets. 😊 Look, facts like my link you totally ignore. You rather continue to attack. Well, good luck with that.

I have spoken to you in another thread where you pointed out my errors, so I stopped escalating the discussion...but as AdminGirl says, this is now the SECOND time in THIS thread I have addressed you, Doc Carling...YOU.    I looked at the link to the comic art, but did not understand the relevance of it, as my discussions ON THIS THREAD have not been about your style of artwork AT ALL, but instead I was discussing WITH SCYLLA how I found her views confusing.  I haven't attacked ANYONE, as I find attacks the lowest form of debate.

And before you jump down my throat again, to some, erotic comics CAN be a kink.

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4 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

I have to apoligize to Jordan. I re-read the above and must admit I translated it wrong and took it as a personal attack. So, I'm very sorry. Next time I read more carefully.

You posted this as I was replying above.  Apology accepted!  

You would know if I was doing a personal attack 😉

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3 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

I have spoken to you in another thread where you pointed out my errors, so I stopped escalating the discussion...but as AdminGirl says, this is now the SECOND time in THIS thread I have addressed you, Doc Carling...YOU.    I looked at the link to the comic art, but did not understand the relevance of it, as my discussions ON THIS THREAD have not been about your style of artwork AT ALL, but instead I was discussing WITH SCYLLA how I found her views confusing.  I haven't attacked ANYONE, as I find attacks the lowest form of debate.

And before you jump down my throat again, to some, erotic comics CAN be a kink.

Please accept my apologize posted above.

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4 minutes ago, Doc Carling said:

As we talk about the Daddy's girl niche. A search on the SL market using "daddys girl" returns more than 11000 results. And the very most are of an erotic nature.

I'm sure they are. Doesn't make it less icky to me (quite the opposite in fact).

Each to their own.

Sorry, you did ask for opinions.... 🤣

 

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